Burke did NOT kill JonBenet

[ispywithmylittleeye]

I agree. Evidence points to the parents. But that does not mean that there is no way that Burke could have hit her on the head and starting the whole thing.

There are many ways in witch a parent could be responsible in this crime. I see that both parents were responsible for all the elements involving the cover up. But I can not see any evidence that proves in any way that Burke was not responsible for the head blow. There is no one who has stated as a fact that Burke could not have done it, and proven that statement. Again, there are only opinions and no opinion should be regarded as less important than other, when there is no factual evidence to support one way or the other. If we want to eliminate someone, we have to have facts to support it on. All three were in the house, so all three could play part in this crime. IMO

I also think that Burke did not know anything about the cover up part.
And at 9-years-old (and I think that years later too) he did not connect the head-blow to the kidnapping of his sister.

I believe he was there and caused the head blow. Not meaning it to be so severe and in any way thinking that it killed JB. It was not intentional, he just was angry and acted in the moment with what probably was in his reach or in his hands (flashlight). Just like a child would.

I believe that after he tried to wake JB up and couldn't do so, he called for his parents to come and explained in shock what had happened. He then was sent to his room/bed because he was in shock and crying/panicking about what happened (JB falling down and not waking up) and his parents did not have the time to deal with that or console him, so he was sent away to his room. He stayed there the whole night and was woken in the morning by the screaming when Patsy called 911. That's when he came down. He heard her mother say " .. just found a note" and asked his father "What did you find?" because he really did not know about the note and what was going on. The question was genuine. John replied to him "We are not speaking to you" and probably told him to go back to his room so that he would not be in the way and ask questions.

In some point later they must have talked to him and and when he asked how JB was after the accident - did she wake up and what happened after he had gone to bed, they explained to him that JB was OK - she woke up a little later and everything was fine. That they all went to bed too and a kidnapper came to their house and took her in the middle of the night. Why would he not believe that? He was a 9-year-old child and would have believed his parents told the truth. He would not think of any reason why they would lie about it.

They told him to stay in his room and later sent him away so he would not talk about the head blow in the presence of the police. And that is all he knew at that time and maybe for years later.

You have to see this version as a possibility too. I see no reason why it could not have happened that way.

And they too have the right for their opinion. Again, I see no factual evidence to conclude that their theories and ideas should be diminished or taken as a joke. They should be taken with the same credibility as any other theory out there that could not be proven as impossible.

Unless we know exactly what grand jury had decided, it too is only an opinion.

I agree. There is no evidence around to support this. There are only stories and observations. In my understanding, neither the pants or the candy box were taken in as evidence or have been tested, so the right thing to conclude would not be that it must have been JB who got poop on the box, but rather - we do not know if there in fact were feces and who did those feces belong to.

I agree. Again, we only have stories and observations but no factual evidence. But it could be one of both - rumor or a fact - we do not know witch is correct so it should not be presented as neither. All the stories/observations in this case (and there are many) should still be considered as possibilities. They just should not be taken as facts.

I agree again - there is no evidence to suggest neither way. All we have here again are opinions. We should consider both as possibilities.

All we know is that there was SA happening to JB at least 10 days prior to her murder. We also have evidence of SA happening to her in some time period shortly before her murder. "Shortly" is a quite broad concept. All we know as a fact (all though, even this could still be disputed) is that she was sexually assaulted sometime between her last bath and the time she was strangled, as we have forensic evidence to support that. But, that time period, although referred as "short", could still be 24 hours. IMO it should be considered a possibility that no SA happened during the staging and that the SA is apart from the crime itself.

There is also no forensic or factual evidence, that proves without a doubt, that the paint brush was used as an object for SA.

I agree. I believe that the pineapple is just a pineapple in this case. We know who's prints are on the bowl and there are many ways how they could have gotten there. We do not know who besides JB ate or didn't eat the pineapple or who was/wasn't present at the time. Only thing the pineapple gives to us is the timing - we know pineapple was eaten by JB after they arrived home frim the Whites. Witch means she was up and alive after arriving home. We do not know more and really, it IMO does not even matter in solving this case.

I think that on finding JBs body, it would be very difficult for the parents not to react in away that didn't give away to BR that something catastrophic happened. He was almost 10 years old. I think even if they tried, he was old enough to understand the consequences of his actions. If he was the perpetrator, he knew better than anyone how hard he hit her.
I also think on discovering her, they would have had to suppress any emotion that would have given away the gravity of the situation. If the scream the neighbor heard wasn't JB, then it had to be PR. I'm trying to put myself in their place and I just discovered that my child had been killed, there's to much happening in this moment to jump immediately into mind games with Burke and no matter what mind games he was fed, he still hit her and was intelligent enough to know how hard, with what object, and how she succumbed to the blow. She was lifeless, she may have had a visible reaction like a death rattle and she urinated. Burke would still need to not admit these things to police even if the parents convinced him she was kidnapped. He would have needed to be coached all the same and deny everything just the same if he was to believe she was kidnapped or not Because every part of the night was going to be put under the scope of the investigation. IMHO.

 

[AddieBoo]

I think that on finding JBs body, it would be very difficult for the parents not to react in away that didn't give away to BR that something catastrophic happened. He was almost 10 years old. I think even if they tried, he was old enough to understand the consequences of his actions. If he was the perpetrator, he knew better than anyone how hard he hit her.
I also think on discovering her, they would have had to suppress any emotion that would have given away the gravity of the situation. If the scream the neighbor heard wasn't JB, then it had to be PR. I'm trying to put myself in their place and I just discovered that my child had been killed, there's to much happening in this moment to jump immediately into mind games with Burke and no matter what mind games he was fed, he still hit her and was intelligent enough to know how hard, with what object, and how she succumbed to the blow. She was lifeless, she may have had a visible reaction like a death rattle and she urinated. Burke would still need to not admit these things to police even if the parents convinced him she was kidnapped. He would have needed to be coached all the same and deny everything just the same if he was to believe she was kidnapped or not Because every part of the night was going to be put under the scope of the investigation. IMHO.

Yes. It frickin defies imagination the amount of coaching etc etc that kid would have had to endure. To keep a secret.

 

[AddieBoo]

Yes. It frickin defies imagination the amount of coaching etc etc that kid would have had to endure. To keep a secret.

The blow to JonBenets skull was the the primary cause of death. If JonBenet would have received medical attention immediately, she would have survived.
Burke Ramsey, pertaining to the skull fracture- would not be responsible for his sisters death.
The ligature strangulation is a whole nother matter. The SA is a whole nother matter.
But if the skull fracture is the only part of the scenario that BR did, he is not responsible IMO.

 

[AddieBoo]

When you find an unconscious child you call for help. Even if you think they are dead. Patsy had called for help before and had dutifully taken her daughter to her pediatrician numerous times. Just because you cannot revive an unconscious person is a flimsy excuse to assume death without medical intervention. So, the only reason that makes sense to me, is her SA, which Dr Wecht stated would have caused the father to be arrested immediately. I’m not sure at all that it would be solely based on internal examination, but that external signs of assault would have caused an internal examination. In other words, because of her trauma/SA I don’t believe she would look like a normal six year old. Especially after considering the autopsy notes from Cynics podcast. She was assaulted that night and had been SA for at least 10 days. But I suspect much longer. This is ground zero to me. Not accidental death, but the coverup of SA. Her death had to be explained- but so did the evidence of SA.

Additionally, that skull fracture was not visible. So why, if you believe the parents are guilty, why did they assume she was dead from unconsciousness? Seriously, they could have called Dr Beuf and he would have helped them…
The coverup wasn’t about protecting Burke. It was to protect the secret of the SA of JonBenet.

 

[AddieBoo]

The blow to JonBenets skull was the the primary cause of death. If JonBenet would have received medical attention immediately, she would have survived.
Burke Ramsey, pertaining to the skull fracture- would not be responsible for his sisters death.
The ligature strangulation is a whole nother matter. The SA is a whole nother matter.
But if the skull fracture is the only part of the scenario that BR did, he is not responsible IMO.

Skull fracture was NOT primary cause of death…

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Yes. It frickin defies imagination the amount of coaching etc etc that kid would have had to endure. To keep a secret.

The blow to JonBenets skull was the the primary cause of death. If JonBenet would have received medical attention immediately, she would have survived.
Burke Ramsey, pertaining to the skull fracture- would not be responsible for his sisters death.
The ligature strangulation is a whole nother matter. The SA is a whole nother matter.
But if the skull fracture is the only part of the scenario that BR did, he is not responsible IMO.

I don't think we can pin point when the blow happened and when she was found to assume he wasn't entirely responsible or partially responsible.
I've heard theories for the ligature being applied prior, theories that she was deceased when it was applied, and the theory that it was a mercy kill.
These details really muddy the water unfortunately. I think even those who think BDI disagree as to how all the events played out. My theory is that what ever happened, there was a reason fir the cover up. This could be for several different scenerios.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Yes. It frickin defies imagination the amount of coaching etc etc that kid would have had to endure. To keep a secret.

I think BR was old enough to understand how much trouble he was in. He had one story to stick to and it was quite simple. I was asleep.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Additionally, that skull fracture was not visible. So why, if you believe the parents are guilty, why did they assume she was dead from unconsciousness? Seriously, they could have called Dr Beuf and he would have helped them…
The coverup wasn’t about protecting Burke. It was to protect the secret of the SA of JonBenet.

I agree that they were capable of determining signs of life. I think most non medical people could .

 

[AddieBoo]

I think BR was old enough to understand how much trouble he was in. He had one story to stick to and it was quite simple. I was asleep.

I don't think we can pin point when the blow happened and when she was found to assume he wasn't entirely responsible or partially responsible.
I've heard theories for the ligature being applied prior, theories that she was deceased when it was applied, and the theory that it was a mercy kill.
These details really muddy the water unfortunately. I think even those who think BDI disagree as to how all the events played out. My theory is that what ever happened, there was a reason fir the cover up. This could be for several different scenerios.

The whole choreography of the murder, each part is really frustrating to try to be absolutely sure of. I am not sure of anything except the family is responsible and the coverup was to protect their secret of the SA of JonBenet…

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

The whole choreography of the murder, each part is really frustrating to try to be absolutely sure of. I am not sure of anything except the family is responsible and the coverup was to protect their secret of the SA of JonBenet…

I do also . I had stumbled on a something from a report that stated BR had been a victim of past abuse. I can't find it for the life of me. I think it could be an important clue.

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

There is as much evidence pointing to Burke as there is evidence pointing to an intruder. The likelihood of an intruder committing this crime, based on the evidence that has been made public, is as likely as that Burke committed this crime. I disagree that all theories are equal or that we should be required to pretend they are.

I disagree that Kolar's take on the evidence should be treated equally to Steve Thomas' take on the evidence. Steve Thomas worked as lead investigator on the case. Thomas met with and interviewed Patsy at length. Kolar worked very briefly for the Boulder DA for a few months, 8 yrs. post homicide.

I disagree that Kolar's take on the evidence should be treated equally to Linda Arndt's take on the evidence. Arndt was present at the time the body was recovered and at the autopsy. It was stated in Arndt's 2000 sworn deposition that the Boulder department of social services agreed with her conclusions. The child abuse investigator, Holly Smith and the child psychologist who interviewed Burke at length, Susanne Bernhard, were part of Boulder social services. Detective Arndt was an experienced sex crimes investigator.

I think it is important to note that multiple trained investigators talked to and reviewed interviews of Burke and concluded he knew nothing. They did not believe Burke delivered the blow to the head.

Blood was present in JBR's vulva area and underpants crotch. The underpants were a size 12 and had been purchased for Patsy's 12 yr. old niece. The most likely scenario, based on this evidence is that SA took place very shortly before the underpants being placed on JBR and that the underpants were placed on the body by an adult as part of staging.

I believe evidence suggests the head blow occurred in JBR's bed/bathroom area. I base this on; JBR's party pants, vest and boots being in a heap on her bedroom floor, her toilet containing waste, a pair of her pants being inside out on her bathroom floor, a diaper package being pulled partway off of her shelf, a trophy having been knocked off of her top shelf, the top Patsy claimed to have put JBR to bed in being on top of JBR's bathroom sink and strands of green garland matching the green garland that adorned the spiral staircase being in her hair.

I do not support the Burke theory.

It has been a long time since I have caught up on the evidence. Last I heard the blue pants in JBRs bathroom may have been BRs. Do you know if the DNA was ever tested? The amount of evidence in this case is overwhelming.

 

[Swirlz]

Unidentified male DNA has not been retested. The sample was too small to be able to match to any particular individual. The pants in JBR's bathroom were listed on the search warrant as black and gray girls pants.

 

[Swirlz]

I think BR was old enough to understand how much trouble he was in. He had one story to stick to and it was quite simple. I was asleep.

How were multiple trained investigators fooled by this? John and Patsy told the same story but law enforcement didn't believe them.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

How were multiple trained investigators fooled by this? John and Patsy told the same story but law enforcement didn't believe them.

You have Steve Thomas and James Kolar with very different opinions of BR. The question is who is correct?

 

[Swirlz]

You have Steve Thomas and James Kolar with very different opinions of BR. The question is who is correct?

Fred Patterson interviewed Burke on the morning of Dec. 26 and said he didn't think Burke knew anything. Linda Arndt observed Burke's Susanne Bernhard interview and didn't think he had anything to do with it. Susanne Bernhard didn't think Burke was involved.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Fred Patterson interviewed Burke on the morning of Dec. 26 and said he didn't think Burke knew anything. Linda Arndt observed Burke's Susanne Bernhard interview and didn't think he had anything to do with it. Susanne Bernhard didn't think Burke was involved.

I'm not sure he was the obvious suspect. There were definite parts of BRs interviews that raised eyebrows and sounded coached. Why did Kolar have such a different opinion? IDK but I sure wouldn't discount him . I'm sure he knows more than most about a lot of details the details of the case . I suspect the police held back information from the public and also gained information from the GJ.

 

[Swirlz]

Kolar's book provides an additional source for Patsy's fibers being in the ligature knot and for JBR having wet the bed that night. He self-published his book in 2011. By that time there was no one left to blame.

 

[Ponytale]

I think that on finding JBs body, it would be very difficult for the parents not to react in away that didn't give away to BR that something catastrophic happened. He was almost 10 years old. I think even if they tried, he was old enough to understand the consequences of his actions. If he was the perpetrator, he knew better than anyone how hard he hit her.
I also think on discovering her, they would have had to suppress any emotion that would have given away the gravity of the situation. If the scream the neighbor heard wasn't JB, then it had to be PR. I'm trying to put myself in their place and I just discovered that my child had been killed, there's to much happening in this moment to jump immediately into mind games with Burke and no matter what mind games he was fed, he still hit her and was intelligent enough to know how hard, with what object, and how she succumbed to the blow. She was lifeless, she may have had a visible reaction like a death rattle and she urinated. Burke would still need to not admit these things to police even if the parents convinced him she was kidnapped. He would have needed to be coached all the same and deny everything just the same if he was to believe she was kidnapped or not Because every part of the night was going to be put under the scope of the investigation. IMHO.

But why did the parents need to act in a way that it didn't give away to BR that something catastrophic happened? I also do not think at all that they acted that way. They must have been shocked and terrified of that situation and did not hide it. I also believe that Burke himself too was shocked and they all showed it, not hided it. I believe there was panic and terror in all of them. I never said that they tried to hide anything from Burke. They did not need to. And neither did Burke.
If it was an "accident" that happened - he just meant to hit her, not kill her. He saw her falling down to the ground after the blow and was scared that it happened. He must have been shocked and terrified himself too. Crying and panicking, trying to wake her up. He knew he hit her hard and told that to his parents after they came to the scene.
They never suppressed any of their emotions at that time. Why would they? It was an awful and unimaginable scene. Why would Patsy, John or any of them scream in this situation? It is possible.

I'm just saying that Burke, as a 9-year old, could have also thought differently - not immediately believing that yes now she must be dead, but thinking that maybe she is just unconscious at his parents will come and wake her up. I see that happening in a 9-year old's mind. Even I, as a parent, when I would come to a scene when my child has fallen down to the ground and my other child says that he hit her - I would not first assume the worst, that now she definitely is dead - I would also think that she is unconscious/ in a coma, or anything but dead. I do not think any parent who was not there when the blow to the head occurs, to see and witness the severity of the situation, would come to the scene and just assume that the child is dead. Not even if there was visible blood on the scene, witch there was not. There has to be something that makes you believe that your child is dead - you can not find her pulse , see a pool of blood or not feel her breathing.

I do not believe any mind games happened. Why should there have been? It was an scene of an accident. Parents did not witness the accident but heard from Burke what had happened and he explained it to them the way it did happened - he hit her hard on the head. They were all in shock - crying, screaming, yelling, saying sorry, asking questions, trying to wake her and etc - it is all possible. Burke told them that he hit her on the head and I see Patsy and/or John feeling her head with their fingers (as a parent would look for a bump) and by touching finding/feeling the fracture beneath her scull, understanding the severity of the situation for the first time - now they know that this is not just a hit on a head with an unconscious child, but rather a brain dead child who would never be herself again. The breathing must have been so shallow that they, in their panic, were not detecting it. The pulse must have been so weak that they could not feel it. Now they assume that their child is dead.

They send Burke away because he is panicking and crying, asking questions like "will she be ok?". They see that he needs to be consoled himself but as they are dealing with JB they are not able to deal with Burke, so they send him away and do not tell him that "you killed your sister" - why would they say that to their child? They loved JB and Burke. Burke went to bed without knowing if JB would wake up or not. And if his parents tell him that everything was fine and JB woke up later, a child believes his parents...

Anyway, I feel like my theory that I presented here is not seen as possible by many. I was hoping that by after all those years thinking about it writing it down here would help see things from another point of view, but I feel that maybe it does not serve this purpose. I'm not stating this all as the truth of what happened - it is just my theory and opinion that I see very possible. I do not want to defend it or explain why I think so over and over again...

 

[Ponytale]

Yes. It frickin defies imagination the amount of coaching etc etc that kid would have had to endure. To keep a secret.

But what other coaching did it need to be in this case, other than - "Do not ever tell anyone that you hit her on the head". That would do it, IMO. To me, everything else is explainable, especially if he really did not know about anything else. It is too possible.

 

[Ponytale]

The blow to JonBenets skull was the the primary cause of death. If JonBenet would have received medical attention immediately, she would have survived.
Burke Ramsey, pertaining to the skull fracture- would not be responsible for his sisters death.
The ligature strangulation is a whole nother matter. The SA is a whole nother matter.
But if the skull fracture is the only part of the scenario that BR did, he is not responsible IMO.

Beckner stated that the blow to the head would have kept her alive for some time, but would have killed her eventually. Even if she would have been hospitalized, the swelling and pressure in her brain could have meant that there was going to be some sort of brain damage. We could assume both ways. If we are to assume that she would not have been herself anymore - IMO, if Patsy/John had that thought after they felt that she has a mayor fracture in her scull, and seeing her in the state that she was (erratic breathing or no breathing, and barely detectable pulse), even if they did see that she was not dead - in some point they could have thought that their child will forever be handicapped, or will never be speaking, walking or eating by herself. They could have just thought she will be in bed and on assisted breathing for the rest of her life. Would Patsy and John want that for them, for her? IMO, again, it is a possibility to consider in this case.

Of course we can argue all this and say that there is a chance that she would have been totally ok and normal if she had received proper medical care on time. Yes, of course it is possible too. But maybe Patsy and John in that time at the house just did not believe that? Or were not willing to risk that? We do not know.