GUILTY CA - 13 victims, ages 2 to 29, shackled in home by parents, Perris, 15 Jan 2018 #12

[gitana1]

I am just glad that the Mother received an equal prison sentence to the Father. I can't stand the "Hedda Nussbaum Defense" ie..dependent personality disorder! Nope, you did it, you participated, you never stopped the abuse.

As for the children, who knows how their story will end up? Some will be okay, some will probably never recover. I think that there is a lot more that occurred that was not released to the public.

Yup. I'm tired of it to. The mother in Noah Mcintosh's case is using it. I've seen it too often.

A real mother would kill anyone who tries to harm her children like that. IMO.

 

[human]

She was having some trouble getting pregnant for a while, she was even going to a fertility clinic and then she had the youngest baby.

What do you think of that? Why? Obviously the kids are a hassle

 

[enelram]

Agreed. But to try to be positive, they're much farther along than maybe expected at this stage.

I think my expectations are probably unrealistic.

I mean these kids were super damaged. And like you said this is all they've known.

Emotionally they're probably doing super well considering.

If they've come this far along so soon I've got to expect that eventually they will understand much more about what their parents did to them and how bad it was.

What I've observed in children from abusive families is that
often times the long term problems may not crop up until the children get into their 30's or 40's. They may have skirted
through life w/ seemingly little residual effects of the abuse
until it comes on strong later on. One reason given for this is
during the 20's many are busy with education or career advancement and they learn to stifle their problems, for a while.
While I certainly wish the children the best outcome possible,
I also believe there will be lifelong adjustment problems that
I hope professionals can prepare them for. This is just the
beginning for them and if they're smart maybe they can work
out their future problems.

 

[mickey2942]

I do believe that children and people are very resilient. I don't believe that an abusive childhood makes children grow up to be victims or monsters. Everyone goes on their own journey.

I have seen remarkable results with children who lived horrific lives. Dave Peltzer, who wrote "A Child Called "It"" managed to move forward from his abuse. "The Lost Boys" were young men from Africa who were forced into being child soldiers, after living in a refugee camp in Somalia they came to the United States, and have become fine young men. I had the opportunity to actually meet one of them, he lives in Utah, works at a grocery store, he seems pretty normal to me.

So, I think people can move forward from horrific events, with the right kind of support and education.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

Yup. I'm tired of it to. The mother in Noah Mcintosh's case is using it. I've seen it too often.

A real mother would kill anyone who tries to harm her children like that. IMO.

I know. But I also know that daily abuse will turn your head to mush. Abusers lock into people from unhealthy backgrounds, which makes them even more susceptible to going into "zombie-mode" or compliance, perhaps even hearkening back to their own upbringing, doubting what they know is right and going back to what they experienced as kids being "disciplined". I don't think that's the case here with this family, since Mom really seems like an equal partner.

But I know a predisposed brain can turn to mush with nonstop criticism, violence, and self-doubt. So I always keep just a little compassion for Hedda Nussbaum, as unthinkable as little Lisa's life was.

 

[travelbug]

What do you think of that? Why? Obviously the kids are a hassle

IMHO She has been living in a Disney-type fantasy world. Her mental state tells her that her purpose in life is to be a "loving, tender and caring mother" to a "perfect, fantasy family of things #1-infinity". Her husband encourages that thought because it makes her happier and keeps her compliant. As we know the reality is a nightmare that will never truly end for those sweet children.

 

[gitana1]

I do believe that children and people are very resilient. I don't believe that an abusive childhood makes children grow up to be victims or monsters. Everyone goes on their own journey.

I have seen remarkable results with children who lived horrific lives. Dave Peltzer, who wrote "A Child Called "It"" managed to move forward from his abuse. "The Lost Boys" were young men from Africa who were forced into being child soldiers, after living in a refugee camp in Somalia they came to the United States, and have become fine young men. I had the opportunity to actually meet one of them, he lives in Utah, works at a grocery store, he seems pretty normal to me.

So, I think people can move forward from horrific events, with the right kind of support and education.

It is possible to live a life and succeed despite childhood abuse and trauma but I 100% disagree that kids are resilient. It actually bothers me when people say that because it negates the power of abuse. It's a common misconception IMO.

Books like A Boy Called It and about the Lost Boys are marketed as survivor stories. They wouldn't make money if they chronicled the panic attacks, nightmares, alcohol abuse, debilitating depression, sexual malfunctioning, etc., that those survivors undoubtedly experience. So of course that kind of stuff is omitted.

Kids are very impacted by trauma and it affects them negatively for life. Almost all mental illnesses we know of are connected in some manner to childhood trauma/family dysfunction. Including ones that have a genetic component.

Children are fragile, IMO. Alcholism, drug dependency, anxiety disorder, depression, personality disorders, and on and on...all have roots in childhood experiences, even if there's a genetic propensity. Organic brain diseases like schizophrenia are even worse when the person with the condition experienced trauma. Childhood abuse affects functioning for life:

A high prevalence of childhood abuse has been reported in patients with severe mental illness. We conducted a cross-sectional study of 102 patients with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or schizoaffective disorder. Social, demographic, and clinical data were obtained. Patients were evaluated using Brief Psychotic Relative Scale, and Traumatic Life Events and Distressing Event questionnaires. Almost half (47.5%) of these patients had suffered some kind of child abuse, and our results confirmed a relationship between a history of childhood abuse and more severe psychosis. Diagnosis of schizophrenia was determined 4.1 years earlier in victims of childhood abuse. Hospital admissions were twice as high in victims of psychological abuse. Patients with a history of sexual abuse were more than twice as likely to attempt suicide (68% vs. 28.9%).
Prevalence and Clinical Impact of Childhood Trauma in... : The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease


This research assessed the lifetime prevalence of traumatic events and current posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in 275 patients with severe mental illness (eg, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder) receiving public mental health services in Concord and Manchester, New Hampshire and Baltimore, Maryland. Lifetime exposure to traumatic events was high, with 98% of the sample reporting exposure to at least 1 traumatic event.
PTSD was predicted most strongly by the number of different types of trauma, followed by childhood sexual abuse. The findings suggest that PTSD is a common comorbid disorder in severe mental illness that is frequently overlooked in mental health settings.
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...al_illness/links/58272e0908ae5c0137edd2cf.pdf
Google Scholar

Strong evidence exists for an association between childhood trauma, particularly childhood sexual abuse, and hallucinations in schizophrenia. Hallucinations are also well-documented symptoms in people with bipolar affective disorder.
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...estigation/links/00b49529871e1c73d3000000.pdf
Google Scholar

Sixty-five percent of the women reported histories of some type of abuse or neglect during childhood. Forty-five percent of the sample had been sexually abused, 51 percent had been physically abused, and 22 percent had experienced neglect. Seventy-four percent of the sexually abused women, 70 percent of the physically abused women, and 94 percent of the women who experienced neglect reported at least one additional form of abuse or neglect. Respondents who had been abused in childhood had higher levels of depressive and psychotic symptoms and higher rates of sexual victimization in adulthood than those who bad not been abused. Women who experienced neglect as children bad higher rates of homelessness in adulthood.
Google Scholar

The link between childhood trauma and mental illness: Effective interventions for mental health professionals
Barbara Everett, Ruth Gallop
Sage Publications, 2000
This informative book gives mental health professionals who are not child abuse specialists knowledge and skills that are especially relevant to their direct service role and practice context. It introduces to these practitioners a conceptual bridge between biomedical and psychosocial understandings of mental disorder, providing a multidimensional approach that allows professionals to think holistically and connect clients' abusive pasts with their present-day symptoms and behaviors. It includes reviews of the most up-to-date findings with direct practice guides in helping clients.
View at books.google.com

Psychological trauma
Bessel A Van der Kolk
American Psychiatric Pub, 2003
How many of your psychiatric patients have a history of severe physical or psychological abuse or other psychological trauma? These patients often present diagnostic dilemmas, get a variety of diagnoses, and frequently prove difficult-to-treat. They may have syndromes that are reminiscent of the post-traumatic sequelae in adults, such as physiological hyperactivity, a sense of loss of control, passivity alternating with uncontrolled violence, and sleep disturbances including nightmares. Investigating the impact of the traumatic event in connection with the development of the disorder is essential to an effective treatment approach. Psychological Trauma provides a basis for understanding human response to trauma. The consequences of specific traumas have usually been described as separate entities. This is the first book to examine human response to trauma as a whole. In this thorough study of the biologic, psychodynamic and social consequences of trauma, separate chapters explore:* The impact of separation from the parental figure on a child's development, including cognitive and neurological disturbances* The psychobiology of traumatic response* Traumatic antecedents of borderline personality disorder* The effect of trauma on the family unit* Amnesia and dissociation as response to trauma.
http://www.traumacenter.org/training/2017_Trauma_Conference(3).pdf


Google Scholar


I can go on and on with links. It is well settled scientifically that childhood trauma and abuse are connected to mental illness and adult malfunctioning.

 

[mickey2942]

Valid points. But there are many people who have moved forward from abusive childhood experiences.

Abuse does not mean that your future is already written off. I know that this is true. It does mean that your life is different, but not always a grim story.

And people who live storybook childhoods end up in mental hospitals as well.

 

[1&2&3]

IMO, many children have an attachment to their mother and/or father because they think they should due to the titles.

It takes time and maturity on the child’s part to actually let go of that apron string. They have to grow up themselves to see what occurred during the childhood that was so wrong.

Many of the Turpin children are not of an age to accept that parents aren’t “perfect” human beings. Something most children, in my day and time believed.

It is my sincere hope the children will in time, with therapy, come to the point of acknowledging the trauma their childhood was, so they can move on. Semding many wishes and much love to them.

 

[kaen]

Valid points. But there are many people who have moved forward from abusive childhood experiences.

Abuse does not mean that your future is already written off. I know that this is true. It does mean that your life is different, but not always a grim story.

And people who live storybook childhoods end up in mental hospitals as well.

Yes, many do move forward. That said, there are factors that affect quality of life and the issues that may continue to arise. It is also important to look at the instances or circumstances that can be re-traumatizing--- potential for abusive relationships, risk-taking behaviors, etc. Even events like child birth/rearing/deciding to have children can cause trauma (depending on the abuse that happened) but prior abuse is/can be a factor weighing heavily on how they handle the situation or the stresses related to the situations.

I agree that life does not have to be grim--especially since the victim can't say what life would be like without the circumstances-- but the triggers can be very detrimental when one least expects it.

Good therapy, good support systems and developing a solid sense of self can be lifesaving to those who have endured extreme abuse. There has to be room for a wide range of emotions (that may or may not seem appropriate or productive) including joy and anger and confusion and fear in contextualizing what happened. As was evident in some of the Turpin children recounting their life with parents who starved them but, at least one child, recalled "happy moments", still bought the justification as to why they could not partake in soda, and their mother's confusion about how to control their food intake without the ropes and chains. The thinking there is very skewed and can affect all other relationships negatively. Some people are definitely more resilient than others. The variables can be wide-swinging. Abuse does mean that it can be harder to live a life of happiness, making the landscape pretty difficult to navigate even when one thinks they have moved on.

 

[mickey2942]

My experience is that when your childhood is bad, terrible, you end up "raising" yourself, and developmentally you are a teen in your mid-twenties. Everyone else passes you by, moving forward into "adult" life. Most people end up in menial jobs, which is much better than getting Social Security benefits, because then you don't have the opportunity to "normalize" and work. Work is therapy, it gives you a place to go every day, interact with society.

Having worked with many abused and neglected youth, the ones who are not eligible for Social Security benefits do significantly better than the ones who languish their lives on SSI or SSDI. Vocational Rehabilitation is probably one of the absolute best government programs for children who have been abused. They are usually eligible based on psychological evaluation. They get assistance with counseling, case management, vocational evaluation and training.

I think that these kids will be okay. I believe that they have a lot of good people helping them.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I asked my husband why they would say such glowing things about their nasty parents. He said that they are the only parents they have and cannot admit how horrible they are

RSBM

It's a child who went through some horrendous stuff, I agree with the first part, but want to point out the second part did I see a little slight difference from your husband's opinion.

Some of the children may not see them as " horrible" people as many of us judge them to be. They perhaps see them as humans that have very very bad faults, but that does not make them horrible with in their beliefs, if that makes sense.

I do hope that each of the children are able to come to their own decisions and realization as to what relationship they do or do not want with their parents. And without the judgment and or light from media upon them.

Bless them all at this Easter season.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I don't respect the one girls' wish that they be locked up less than 25 years though!!!

I guess we will respectfully differ here, because I respect all of the children's wishes, whether I agree with them or not.

They lived through this, and the very least I can give them is to respect whatever opinion they have on the matter. The law is the law, and the law has spoken.

Oftentimes, the law has to be the ones who can actually speak most for the victims, which I think they have in this case.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Agreed. But to try to be positive, they're much farther along than maybe expected at this stage.

I think my expectations are probably unrealistic.

I mean these kids were super damaged. And like you said this is all they've known.

Emotionally they're probably doing super well considering.

If they've come this far along so soon I've got to expect that eventually they will understand much more about what their parents did to them and how bad it was.

And would we judge them as to if they merely compartmentalised all that, they saw that their life was getting much better and they were very happy, and they just blocked it off and they are moving on and they really really don't want to go into understanding more about how bad their parents were, what they did to them Etc. Did therapist these days force people to make those decisions and realizations so soon? Especially when they are young adults and or minors?

Heck they may be 50 or 60 years old before they start thinking about it again. Right now, I think many of them are just moving forward and putting it behind them, kudos for them!

I would expect from my personal knowledge and readings, that many times it takes decades to deal with such. And many people who are survivors actually do compartmentalize it, and sometimes they come out the other end and use it to help others.

Sometimes, they just wipe it off the face of the Earth and try to with their memories, and move on. I cringe that a therapist may make them focus on it and make decisions on such. I don't think they do that these days, and if it takes years and years, the therapist allow them to compartmentalize until they want to deal with it? I don't know?

 

[dixiegirl1035]

It is possible to live a life and succeed despite childhood abuse and trauma but I 100% disagree that kids are resilient. It actually bothers me when people say that because it negates the power of abuse. It's a common misconception IMO.

Books like A Boy Called It and about the Lost Boys are marketed as survivor stories. They wouldn't make money if they chronicled the panic attacks, nightmares, alcohol abuse, debilitating depression, sexual malfunctioning, etc., that those survivors undoubtedly experience. So of course that kind of stuff is omitted.

Kids are very impacted by trauma and it affects them negatively for life. Almost all mental illnesses we know of are connected in some manner to childhood trauma/family dysfunction. Including ones that have a genetic component.

Children are fragile, IMO. Alcholism, drug dependency, anxiety disorder, depression, personality disorders, and on and on...all have roots in childhood experiences, even if there's a genetic propensity. Organic brain diseases like schizophrenia are even worse when the person with the condition experienced trauma. Childhood abuse affects functioning for life:

A high prevalence of childhood abuse has been reported in patients with severe mental illness. We conducted a cross-sectional study of 102 patients with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or schizoaffective disorder. Social, demographic, and clinical data were obtained. Patients were evaluated using Brief Psychotic Relative Scale, and Traumatic Life Events and Distressing Event questionnaires. Almost half (47.5%) of these patients had suffered some kind of child abuse, and our results confirmed a relationship between a history of childhood abuse and more severe psychosis. Diagnosis of schizophrenia was determined 4.1 years earlier in victims of childhood abuse. Hospital admissions were twice as high in victims of psychological abuse. Patients with a history of sexual abuse were more than twice as likely to attempt suicide (68% vs. 28.9%).
Prevalence and Clinical Impact of Childhood Trauma in... : The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease


This research assessed the lifetime prevalence of traumatic events and current posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in 275 patients with severe mental illness (eg, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder) receiving public mental health services in Concord and Manchester, New Hampshire and Baltimore, Maryland. Lifetime exposure to traumatic events was high, with 98% of the sample reporting exposure to at least 1 traumatic event.
PTSD was predicted most strongly by the number of different types of trauma, followed by childhood sexual abuse. The findings suggest that PTSD is a common comorbid disorder in severe mental illness that is frequently overlooked in mental health settings.
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...al_illness/links/58272e0908ae5c0137edd2cf.pdf
Google Scholar

Strong evidence exists for an association between childhood trauma, particularly childhood sexual abuse, and hallucinations in schizophrenia. Hallucinations are also well-documented symptoms in people with bipolar affective disorder.
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...estigation/links/00b49529871e1c73d3000000.pdf
Google Scholar

Sixty-five percent of the women reported histories of some type of abuse or neglect during childhood. Forty-five percent of the sample had been sexually abused, 51 percent had been physically abused, and 22 percent had experienced neglect. Seventy-four percent of the sexually abused women, 70 percent of the physically abused women, and 94 percent of the women who experienced neglect reported at least one additional form of abuse or neglect. Respondents who had been abused in childhood had higher levels of depressive and psychotic symptoms and higher rates of sexual victimization in adulthood than those who bad not been abused. Women who experienced neglect as children bad higher rates of homelessness in adulthood.
Google Scholar

The link between childhood trauma and mental illness: Effective interventions for mental health professionals
Barbara Everett, Ruth Gallop
Sage Publications, 2000
This informative book gives mental health professionals who are not child abuse specialists knowledge and skills that are especially relevant to their direct service role and practice context. It introduces to these practitioners a conceptual bridge between biomedical and psychosocial understandings of mental disorder, providing a multidimensional approach that allows professionals to think holistically and connect clients' abusive pasts with their present-day symptoms and behaviors. It includes reviews of the most up-to-date findings with direct practice guides in helping clients.
View at books.google.com

Psychological trauma
Bessel A Van der Kolk
American Psychiatric Pub, 2003
How many of your psychiatric patients have a history of severe physical or psychological abuse or other psychological trauma? These patients often present diagnostic dilemmas, get a variety of diagnoses, and frequently prove difficult-to-treat. They may have syndromes that are reminiscent of the post-traumatic sequelae in adults, such as physiological hyperactivity, a sense of loss of control, passivity alternating with uncontrolled violence, and sleep disturbances including nightmares. Investigating the impact of the traumatic event in connection with the development of the disorder is essential to an effective treatment approach. Psychological Trauma provides a basis for understanding human response to trauma. The consequences of specific traumas have usually been described as separate entities. This is the first book to examine human response to trauma as a whole. In this thorough study of the biologic, psychodynamic and social consequences of trauma, separate chapters explore:* The impact of separation from the parental figure on a child's development, including cognitive and neurological disturbances* The psychobiology of traumatic response* Traumatic antecedents of borderline personality disorder* The effect of trauma on the family unit* Amnesia and dissociation as response to trauma.
http://www.traumacenter.org/training/2017_Trauma_Conference(3).pdf


Google Scholar


I can go on and on with links. It is well settled scientifically that childhood trauma and abuse are connected to mental illness and adult malfunctioning.

Great post, thank you for taking your time!

One thing that I think of, is how many of us here on the threads that have gone through many of what you have posted above. But yet, we ourselves, consider us well functioning adults. We are proud of our lives, and what we have become. Moo ( using the generalized term, we, not everybody who is posting here)

I guess that's where I have a brain block. I'm trying to understand some of what you're saying. If folks grew up having been abused in the past, and have compartmentalised it and feel like they are doing well as adults, should they feel ...??
what??

Please bear with me to try to understand what you were saying, again thank you

 

[human]

I know hundreds of people as I was a teacher for thirty years,

I cannot say but I really think that 100% of the families were affected by alcoholism .

Sex abuse, eating disorders, chemical dependency, spousal abuse, depression, personality disorders, health issues.. People in dysfunctional homes learn dysfunction. The biggie is shame and secrecy.

People move forward when they realize they must, That happens when they admit that things they learned are harming them.

All parents screw up . But when parents act out with their own demons, that is when the trouble really begins.

I think it is generally accepted that starving and chaining children is not OK. That they wanted to do it and did should have hinted to them that some parenting classes might help.

As far as the trips and good times, intermittent reinforcement is the most successful for anything. In gambling, if you win once in awhile, you will do it again.

If you get fed a treat once in awhile,you will do anything to get it again. Works with dogs and people

 

[Pi Thoughts]

Wow, this is amazing.......and isn’t Raider a beautiful looking dog.

“As the children of David and Louise Turpin spoke about taking their life back and the nightmares they still have, a yellow Labrador sat quietly next to them.

The dog, Raider, has been meeting with the siblings ever since their parents were arrested early last year and their lives were turned upside-down.

The three-year-old Labrador is a facility dog with the Corona Police Department. Unlike other police dogs, he is highly trained to provide companionship without being a disruption in a work environment.

He is the first dog from Canine Companions for Independence, an organisation that trains service dogs, to join the Corona police.”

‘House of Horrors’ kids ‘comforted for months’ by police dog

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Wow, this is amazing.......and isn’t Raider a beautiful looking dog.

“As the children of David and Louise Turpin spoke about taking their life back and the nightmares they still have, a yellow Labrador sat quietly next to them.

The dog, Raider, has been meeting with the siblings ever since their parents were arrested early last year and their lives were turned upside-down.

The three-year-old Labrador is a facility dog with the Corona Police Department. Unlike other police dogs, he is highly trained to provide companionship without being a disruption in a work environment.

He is the first dog from Canine Companions for Independence, an organisation that trains service dogs, to join the Corona police.”

‘House of Horrors’ kids ‘comforted for months’ by police dog

From link, apparently a stock photo. There was another photo of the puppy and Court within the article.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Agreed. But to try to be positive, they're much farther along than maybe expected at this stage.

I think my expectations are probably unrealistic.

I mean these kids were super damaged. And like you said this is all they've known.

Emotionally they're probably doing super well considering.

If they've come this far along so soon I've got to expect that eventually they will understand much more about what their parents did to them and how bad it was.

I agree that they're much farther along than expected at this stage. I put this down to the fact that they have had and are still getting a tremendous amount of support from their siblings who have endured the same treatment. My concern at this stage is the long term impact that may not even reach a conscious level.

I think your expectations are hopeful rather than unrealistic. If you lose hope, you lose everything. Everyone will be wishing the best for them and I think their privacy will be important in shaping how they move on. Constant reminders of badly they were abused won't be helpful. Growing up, maturing, making new friends, forming relationships and discovering the world outside that house may be the key to long-term happiness. I wish them love as they move forward.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Back when this case just broke there were several of us that wondered about number five, Jonathan' and if he had some developmental issues, and it was interesting to hear David Turpin remarks referencing him getting in the help he needed. I don't know why, but Jonathan tore me up the most. His thin legs dancing in the wedding video plays in my mind and I hurt for him the most.

Some of the children are coming from a Christian standpoint of forgiveness and love, and in spite of everything else David or Louise else did , they did instill love and forgiveness in those children.

I know it's not something we should want, but I would like to see them. Just to lay eyes on them and know they are OK physically. to know them more and put a name with a face.