Found Deceased CA - Audrey Moran, 26, & Jonathan Reynoso, 28, Riverside County, 10 May 2017 #1

[Force Ten]

A lot of apartment complexes have cameras. In fact, on another case I've been following, the Jennifer Kesse disappearance, the only tangible evidence they have is surveillance footage of a POI at the apartment complex where Kesse's car was abandoned.

In that particular case, the footage wasn't even released until a full 15 months later.

 

[htiff]

In that particular case, the footage wasn't even released until a full 15 months later.

True.

 

[GigTu]

WHO said JR was heading to Brawley? The roommate? HOW does she know this? If she knows these two answers, she likely also knows who took him to Brawley. That is, if he ever really went - or intended to go - to Brawley in the first place.

How do we know he ever left his apartment? Did the pizza delivery person confirm it was JR the pizza was delivered to?

 

[iscaremyself]

There are a couple of different reports on whose scent was picked up on. I only know a little about scent tracing. And there are factors that can throw a scent off if time or elements intervene. Early on in this thread someone posted a really comprehensive article on the accuracy and fallibilities of this method. I'll try to find it.

I think 'transference' makes the scent moot.. the car started and had gas so likely simply dumped

 

[darring21]

One of the things I always think when I work on a case is "what's the most logical conclusion?" In this case we have an abandoned vehicle registered to the Moran family, we have two phones that are no longer sending or receiving data (by data I mean calls/texts/information). Many people have said many things, but that's all hearsay. I don't like to make assumptions. Looking at the objective data, there is very little to go on. Two young people are missing, Audrey has a lot of people who seem to be able to establish a timeline. Jon does not. I don't even figure Brawley into the equation at this point.

Why is there so little information here? We have seen numerous cases where a family member laid out specific details of everything (or almost everything) they know. (Go check the Michael Chambers case right now). Not here, we just have a few vague and conflicting bits of information. I have to conclude the family either doesn't want help, doesn't think releasing information would help, or they don't know how to navigate that space.

We have seen law enforcement be very forthcoming with what they know and asking for assistance from the public. (Hannah Graham and others). Not here... we've got almost nothing. Why?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[GigTu]

I know many feel that the vehicle was "dumped" in Beaumont as a sort of diversion but I can't ignore the reports of their scents going up the hill. They had to have been there. I've never heard of dogs picking up a false scent, and in this case there are two. Reasons why they would go up the hill would be to run and/or hide. Beaumont is way off from their home and a bit obscure as reported they didn't know anyone around there. It could be that they were fleeing someone or something so bad they could not go home (or to police). Bad enough to where they disappeared themselves.

BBM Whoa whoa whoa... I haven't followed the case closely, but initial reports said JRs scent went towards a field, so we assumed that means "up the hill". AMs scent was reported to be 20' in front of where the vehicle was parked, so we assumed that was in the "side of the road".

Have there been other reports providing different locations of their scents other than what I just typed out?

 

[Force Ten]

That's an interesting theory, but can you back this up with something more than the possibility of the dogs having been right?

And even if dog tracking is very reliable, we really don't know if the reports on this are reliable.

As you seem to know a lot about dog tracking, can you post any data on it. I am having trouble finding the article that was posted earlier, which kind of breaks this method down for the lay person.

Hell no am I an expert LOL. I have read (and listened) quite a bit though. It's a fascinating science.

Here is a breakdown from an verified expert who is a member here, posted originally the Bryce Laspisa froum.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Castaic-30-Aug-2013-8&p=10049818#post10049818

Quote Originally Posted by Voice4theSilent

How accurate are dogs after a week? Have there been cases in which it was discovered later that the dogs just completely blew it? I would like to know how much weight to put on the dogs that tracked Bryce's scent a week after he supposedly left the area.


According to Sarx, Verified Expert/Professional in SAR and K9SAR:
10-10-2013, 01:59 PM

sarx
Verified Expert/Professional in SAR and K9SAR

I'm going to post what I tend to say often in these cases where dogs were used but the person was not found....

Dogs are just a tool, and the only time we can truly be sure that any of them were in fact on the right trail is when they lead us to something of significance, like the person, a trail of clothing, items left behind, etc.

In the event that that doesn't happen, then we must, or I should say, should, only take that information as one possibility, not as absolute fact, as there is no way to prove or verify that they were in fact correct.

If you know me on here, you know that I am a huge believer in dogs in SAR work, I also am not going to put full stock in any one resource unless they find me the person I've been looking for. Make sense?

I say this because I am seeing a lot of focus being put on one team's trail being discounted and another team's being latched onto, for really no better reason than that the one makes more sense to people (lost person behavior does NOT always make sense). Since we really know so little about what transpired I caution against focusing too much on any one thing.

MOO, carry on.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bryce Laspisa, 19, Castaic, 30 August 2013 - #6
* * *
10-12-2013, 10:45 AM
sarx
Verified Expert/Professional in SAR and K9SAR

Doggie info:
HRD/Cadaver Dogs can be effective from shortly after death to years, decades and centuries later, DEPENDING on training.

Trailing Dogs (these use a scent article) can be effective from minutes to DAYS later, I am still waiting to see a confirmed case of months later. Weather, HEAT, humidity or lack there of, wind all affect scent greatly (as in it eats it up). Those were major factors in this case and many others. (100 degree temps and low humidity are the enemy of scent so to speak). The reality is, the only people I have seen who say they can run a 3 month to year old trail are those who are benefiting from it either financially or for fame. Both of which I feel is not good for the families of these loved ones who the are missing so very much.

The other type of "trailing" dog is the police k9 bloodhound/tracker/trailer. I put these in a separate category because they are generally trained for "hot" trails, as they are used to most often find the bad guy. They are being brought out more and more on MP cases and the issue here is an awful lot of them have not trained on aged trails (24 hrs plus) but many don't seem to think there is a difference and that's an issue, because scent changes, moves, and does all kinds of things as the hours and days go by.

Area search dogs are looking for any human in a given area. They only work well if the areas is free of all other people, otherwise they'll be finding every hiker, biker, and cop along the way.

The part below is Complete speculation
It seems like it would have been hard for them to bring an area dog in given all the LE and public in the area. I have to wonder if they brought trailing dogs in and scented off of something in the car (like the seat), which is done often. Complete speculation on my part.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bryce Laspisa, 19, Castaic, 30 August 2013 - #6

So, to be clear, we can't know how accurate the dog(s) were because they weren't found or confirmed to have been there. But I do hold a lot of faith that they were there.

Here is some other great info on tracking dogs.

http://thisiscriminal.com/episode-29-officer-talon-10-30-2015/

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season1/episode-five-breeze-grief-1.3505958

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season1/episode-six-the-scent-1.3513113

 

[Force Ten]

BBM Whoa whoa whoa... I haven't followed the case closely, but initial reports said JRs scent went towards a field, so we assumed that means "up the hill". AMs scent was reported to be 20' in front of where the vehicle was parked, so we assumed that was in the "side of the road".

Have there been other reports providing different locations of their scents other than what I just typed out?

The reports are really conflicting. One has AM's scent 20 feet out in front of the car. Another has JR's scent 50 feet out "through a field". The last report was that both of their scent was tracked into the field. The only 'field' is on the embankment next to the vehicle.

I tend to think that all the reports could be factual.

 

[htiff]

The reports are really conflicting. One has AM's scent 20 feet out in front of the car. Another has JR's scent 50 feet out "through a field". The last report was that both of their scent was tracked into the field. The only 'field' is on the embankment next to the vehicle.

I tend to think that all the reports could be factual.

You have decent support for JDR and AM being at that spot, out of their vehicle, but what points to them then deciding to leave on their own accord, as opposed to them trying to escape and being re-captured and brought back to another vehicle?

And do we know if scent, like DNA can transfer? As in, if there is an altercation between two individuals, or say the perp decides to wear clothing of their victim, can a dog distinguish between the scent that is transferred or sweat or blood from a victim that might end up on a perp in a struggle vs, the actual person having left their scent?

If JDR and AM had decided to leave out of fear of some unknown thing, what would prevent them from contacting family and friends by now? How would they survive (there are reports that none of their cards have been used, and no access has been made to bank accounts)?

 

[offdutycriminologist]

Voluntary missing persons go under the radar. James Renner discussed how House of Ruth does it for victims of domestic abuse in his book about Maura Murray. It's not impossible.


"Consequences seen and unforeseen."

 

[htiff]

Does anyone familiar with I-10 in Beaumont, know if the spot the vehicle was found was just before, or just after the exit for Moreno Valley? I know Oak Parkway takes you to Moreno Valley.

 

[htiff]

Voluntary missing persons go under the radar. James Renner discussed how House of Ruth does it for victims of domestic abuse in his book about Maura Murray. It's not impossible.


"Consequences seen and unforeseen."

Right. But what in this case indicates a voluntary missing scenario? Where is the evidence of this?

 

[offdutycriminologist]

Right. But what in this case indicates a voluntary missing scenario? Where is the evidence of this?

What indicates foul play?


"Consequences seen and unforeseen."

 

[Force Ten]

You have decent support for JDR and AM being at that spot, out of their vehicle, but what points to them then deciding to leave on their own accord, as opposed to them trying to escape and being re-captured and brought back to another vehicle?

And do we know if scent, like DNA can transfer? As in, if there is an altercation between two individuals, or say the perp decides to wear clothing of their victim, can a dog distinguish between the scent that is transferred or sweat or blood from a victim that might end up on a perp in a struggle vs, the actual person having left their scent?

If JDR and AM had decided to leave out of fear of some unknown thing, what would prevent them from contacting family and friends by now? How would they survive (there are reports that none of their cards have been used, and no access has been made to bank accounts)?

This is precisely what I'm waiting to hear back about.

 

[Force Ten]

Does anyone familiar with I-10 in Beaumont, know if the spot the vehicle was found was just before, or just after the exit for Moreno Valley? I know Oak Parkway takes you to Moreno Valley.

It's just after the Oak Valley onramp. This makes me wonder now if they maybe had just gotten on the freeway and were being pursued, couldn't pick up enough speed before being forced to stop.

 

[htiff]

Why is there so little information here? We have seen numerous cases where a family member laid out specific details of everything (or almost everything) they know. (Go check the Michael Chambers case right now). Not here, we just have a few vague and conflicting bits of information. I have to conclude the family either doesn't want help, doesn't think releasing information would help, or they don't know how to navigate that space.

We have seen law enforcement be very forthcoming with what they know and asking for assistance from the public. (Hannah Graham and others). Not here... we've got almost nothing. Why?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

This seems pretty par for the course for most cases of just missing persons. Hannah Grahm involved murder that precipitated the disappearance, and I don't know about Chambers. But on the Kesse and McStay case there was equally baffling and contradictory "clues" as to what had occurred, as to this case.

 

[Force Ten]

This long shot of the bank makes me think that perhaps they went 50 foot forward and up the bank. Where the vehicle was is pretty steep.

 

[iscaremyself]

Does anyone familiar with I-10 in Beaumont, know if the spot the vehicle was found was just before, or just after the exit for Moreno Valley? I know Oak Parkway takes you to Moreno Valley.

I drove there a couple days ago. The car was left just west of oak valley parkway.. you could easily walk back up the freeway on-ramp it was so close.

 

[htiff]

I drove there a couple days ago. The car was left just west of oak valley parkway.. you could easily walk back up the freeway on-ramp it was so close.

I was thinking that maybe the SUV was abandoned where it was, because those involved were headed to Moreno Valley, and wanted to get rid of the vehicle before doing so. If you look at Riverside/Coroner reports, much of the violent crimes for that county come out of Moreno. Not only have there been a lot of gang shootings in that area, but women have gone missing only to be found later in a field, that sort of thing.

I have to think that whoever did this had another vehicle and had help.

 

[offdutycriminologist]

I was thinking that maybe the SUV was abandoned where it was, because those involved were headed to Moreno Valley, and wanted to get rid of the vehicle before doing so. If you look at Riverside/Coroner reports, much of the violent crime comes out of Moreno. Not only have there been a lot of gang shootings, but women have gone missing, etc.

I have to think that whoever did this had another vehicle and had help.

What evidence of foul play do you have?