GUILTY CA - Audrie Pott, 15, suicide after sexual assault, Saratoga, 10 Sept 2012

[PrettyWoman86]

It's not a modern day thing, as I doubt people decades ago were more sympathetic towards rape victims. And it's not just young boys either; People of all ages and genders contribute to rape culture. Heck, there are plenty of women/girls out there who believe that you can be "asking for it". Just think about the low sentences that rapists get. No exaggeration...The % of people who have messed up ideas about rape (like believe you can do something to deserve it or will defend a famous person, etc) is extremely, disturbingly high. It's like unless you're under the age of 12 or you were murdered/almost murdered (like the woman on the train in India)...you are somewhat to blame.

What I meant by modern, is that people are seemingly more open to defending rapists as opposed to turning a blind eye completely. I know that it is not just "young boys" but I find it more alarming (I find it alarming in general) that children are committing these heinous crimes. One reason is that it is generally swept under the rug as kids will be kids or they don't know the consequences of their actions. Another reason, people are more sympathetic to minors because sometimes the qualities they see, mimic those of their children, and lastly, because I feel that criminals escalate their actions, if you are gang raping someone at 16, what are you going to do at 25? I weep for the future generations.

 

[PrettyWoman86]

I don't understand the "modern day rape culture" statement.

Never, in the history of human civilization, have there been so many laws and societal norms that protect girls and women from being raped.

In the past, there was no age limit when a girl could have sex until Europe enacted laws of consent starting at age 10 or 12 for girls. Defense could be the girl had a prior history of sexual activity - a 13 year old girl who had a "history of unchase behavior" was open season. And that was STILL a defense when I was a teenager - a history of promiscuous behavior made more victimization by adult men legal.

There is no way a couple generations ago a woman could file charges on a man who raped her if she willingly went to bed with him - or even on a date with him alone. That was consent enough.

Remember the dear old nonsense poet Ogden Nash from the 1950's? He penned the oft-repeated line, "candy is dandy but liquor is quicker". That line even appeared in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, a children's classic movie.

Just in this last generation have we moved toward saying it's not okay to get a woman drunk to have sex with her, and it's not funny, and it's not a joke.

So. Moving in the right direction. I don't think any student of history would make a statement like "modern day rape culture". There have never ever been so many protections for women and girls, and we've never had a society that was less shaming of women's sexual behavior and choices than now.

Ever read "the Scarlet Letter"? Talk about shaming.

In my personal opinion, we have laws that protect victims, but we also have sympathizers of rapists also. I believe today's children are growing up in an oversexualized society and they learn so many things from the media. There are violent sexual inuendos against women in songs, movies, etc. I feel like it is a modern day thing, because people state the laws have come so far, in reality the victims still feel shame, some rapists are held to different standards and the victim's clothing and actions come into play when she was violated.

I have much more to say but for the fear of being harsh, I will cut this statement short.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

They DREW on her body with markers. :furious:

http://www.mercurynews.com/saratoga/ci_23029884/audrie-pott-case-documents-detail-party-at-heart

"When Audrie Pott woke up in her friend's house the morning of Sept. 2, after an apparent night of heavy drinking, she found herself undressed and her body covered in marker-drawn scrawlings of sexually explicit messages, several of her fellow teen partygoers told investigators."

Shades of gray, anyone?

 

[lillygator]

I agree that they should know right from wrong. And I did say that they should be held accountable.

But that is different from wishing that their entire lives be ruined, IMO. Just MOO.

the more that comes out the more I stand by that. They are 16, they know right from wrong. If we keep slapping them with probation and not truly punishing them, this is going to continue to happen.


These are not boys they are animals. And if this was my daughter I would be pushing for them to be tried as adults and to the fullest extent of the law....her entire life is ruined....as is the families.

 

[Deleted member 96356]

According to this article, Audrie was being bullied last spring, and the family had asked the principal for help.

The parents are suing the owners of the home where this took place, saying they had a "duty to prevent". Hmmm. Speaking from my own misspent youth, I wouldn't have blamed any of our parents for what we got up to when they were out of town. But I understand the legality. Especially seeing there seems to be so little remorse.

Also, the accused were taken off the football team but not expelled. Oh. Well now. As long as they couldn't play football...

http://news.yahoo.com/lawyer-assaulted-teen-had-drawings-name-body-195508441.html

 

[Minette]

The sad thing is, being removed from the football team is more than the schools have done in other incidents! :furious:

As far as 'ruining the lives' of the accused, I continue to maintain that a young man capable of gang raping an unconscious girl, writing demeaning sexual epithets on her body and then posting pictures online the better to victim-shame her wasn't going to have a worthwhile life anyway. I mean, the alternative to 'ruining their lives' is to let them get away with this with a slap on the wrist. And seriously, suppose they DO get a slap on the wrist and go on with their lives and become whatever gang rapists become when they grow up--would YOU want to go to a doctor who had this in his past? An accountant? Heck, an auto mechanic?

They ruined their OWN lives, IMO. Let them live with the consequences. Which is more than their victim gets to do.

 

[greenthumb]

The sad thing is, being removed from the football team is more than the schools have done in other incidents! :furious:

As far as 'ruining the lives' of the accused, I continue to maintain that a young man capable of gang raping an unconscious girl, writing demeaning sexual epithets on her body and then posting pictures online the better to victim-shame her wasn't going to have a worthwhile life anyway. I mean, the alternative to 'ruining their lives' is to let them get away with this with a slap on the wrist. And seriously, suppose they DO get a slap on the wrist and go on with their lives and become whatever gang rapists become when they grow up--would YOU want to go to a doctor who had this in his past? An accountant? Heck, an auto mechanic?

They ruined their OWN lives, IMO. Let them live with the consequences. Which is more than their victim gets to do.

I agree that what they have done is horrific. Terrible beyond words.

I agree that they have ruined their own lives, as well as hers and all their families.

What I've tried to say is coming across as excusing them, and I do not mean to excuse them at all, in any way. And perhaps for these 4 boys, it is just too late - perhaps they are beyond any intervention or help.

I just think it is too simple to say these 4 boys are animals, lock them up & ruin their lives and that is justice, said & done... because that won't be the end of it, IMO. There will just be more where they came from, because somehow our society seems to be churning them out - self-absorbed, self-serving, unfeeling, egotistical monsters.

So, I hope that in addition to the anger and hostility we feel toward these boys in particular, cases like this make us think about what it is in our world that is failing not only our young men, but our young women, as well.

I also want to try to clarify that I am not sympathizing with the rapists - I do believe that they need to be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

But if these 4 boys are 'animals', then somehow they were brought up that way, or they got some very mixed up messages from our hyper-sexualized society or something... and I think we should look at what that 'something' might be.

All just MOO.

 

[CuriousGuy]

The sad thing is, being removed from the football team is more than the schools have done in other incidents! :furious:

As far as 'ruining the lives' of the accused, I continue to maintain that a young man capable of gang raping an unconscious girl, writing demeaning sexual epithets on her body and then posting pictures online the better to victim-shame her wasn't going to have a worthwhile life anyway. I mean, the alternative to 'ruining their lives' is to let them get away with this with a slap on the wrist. And seriously, suppose they DO get a slap on the wrist and go on with their lives and become whatever gang rapists become when they grow up--would YOU want to go to a doctor who had this in his past? An accountant? Heck, an auto mechanic?

They ruined their OWN lives, IMO. Let them live with the consequences. Which is more than their victim gets to do.

Thanks was not enough. The lack of empathy added to the obvious intent to humiliate and shame this girl is shocking. There is no excuse for this monstrous behavior. Zero, nada, none.

I am obviously a male and I can't begin to imagine what these were thinking. Budding psychopaths IMO

 

[IzzyBlanche]

As much as I hate what these boys have done, and believe that they must be held accountable... I also do not want to think that the answer is ruining the lives of 16 year old boys.

They are really just children yet themselves... children who have not been given the proper guidance, examples and limits... by their parents, the education system, society as a whole. Somehow, as a whole, we are not holding up the ideals of honour, respect, empathy, responsibility for our children, and that is failing a whole generation, IMO. As we know, children learn what they live, and live what they've learned.

It saddens me to think that these young boys have not been taught to be young men of honour... have they had any leadership from righteous and upstanding men in their lives? There aren't many examples of those kinds of men in movies, or on TV, or in music... so where are boys to learn how to be good men? We aren't promoting decency and accountability in our society much these days.

All just MOO.

I've been following the discussion that stemmed from this post and trying to decide where my own thoughts lie. I can see both sides of the argument.

However, this is what I have ended up with: as a thought experiment, would you feel the same leniency if the subject were Alyssa Bustamante?

Just imagine:

"As much as I hate what this girl has done, and believe that she must be held accountable... I also do not want to think that the answer is ruining the life of a 15 year old girl.

She is really just a child yet herself... as child who has not been given the proper guidance, examples and limits... by her parents, the education system, society as a whole. Somehow, as a whole, we are not holding up the ideals of honour, respect, empathy, responsibility for our children, and that is failing a whole generation, IMO. As we know, children learn what they live, and live what they've learned."

I fully realize that there is a large difference between rape and murder--on a logical level. One victim is left alive, one is not.

But on an emotional level, rape victims are murder victims of another sort: their sense of security and safety are destroyed forever. They will have trust issues until the day they die. Their lives will never be the same. In a very real sense, their true selves have been killed, smothered in fear that will never fully leave them.

So after much consideration, I must respectfully disagree. These rapists ruined Audrie's life to a degree akin to murder, had she lived.

For that, they deserve to have their lives ruined just as they ruined Audrie's.

MOO of course.

 

[Minette]

I agree that what they have done is horrific. Terrible beyond words.

I agree that they have ruined their own lives, as well as hers and all their families.

What I've tried to say is coming across as excusing them, and I do not mean to excuse them at all, in any way. And perhaps for these 4 boys, it is just too late - perhaps they are beyond any intervention or help.

I just think it is too simple to say these 4 boys are animals, lock them up & ruin their lives and that is justice, said & done... because that won't be the end of it, IMO. There will just be more where they came from, because somehow our society seems to be churning them out - self-absorbed, self-serving, unfeeling, egotistical monsters.

So, I hope that in addition to the anger and hostility we feel toward these boys in particular, cases like this make us think about what it is in our world that is failing not only our young men, but our young women, as well.

I also want to try to clarify that I am not sympathizing with the rapists - I do believe that they need to be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

But if these 4 boys are 'animals', then somehow they were brought up that way, or they got some very mixed up messages from our hyper-sexualized society or something... and I think we should look at what that 'something' might be.

All just MOO.

greenthumb, I do understand exactly what you are saying! I think there IS a problem both with the parents of these young men who somehow didn't raise them to understand that treating girls this way is CRIMINAL, not just 'wrong,' but with our society in which such things seem to be happening more and more frequently. (By this I mean the group attacks on a girl followed by the victim-shaming in social media and cover-up by the families/friends/schools of the accused, not rape in general.) It seems to be most often associated with members of team sports for whatever reason. I am in NO WAY saying that all youth who play team sports are capable of such things, but I can think of three instances off the top of my head that involved high school football players. Is this an issue with perceived 'specialness' or entitlement felt by those who play sports and bring 'glory' to the school? I don't know.

I think there were a lot of failures that led up to this crime--a failure of society if we are not making it clear enough that this behavior is NOT OK and WILL be punished, a failure of parents who don't educate their sons that having sex with an unconscious girl is rape and that posting pictures of her being assaulted the better to mock her is wrong and disgusting, a failure of coaches who didn't instill a sense of ethics into players under their guidance, so many failures. But ultimately each of these young men made a CHOICE (not a 'mistake,' a choice) to commit crimes against a young girl and I think by the time they had evolved to the point of making that choice they as individuals are not really salvageable, IMO.

I agree that we should be doing more as a society to make it clear that this behavior is criminal and will not be tolerated, but I don't think we need to go easy on those who have already indulged in it, if that makes sense.

We can have slight differences of opinion on this though and it's all good--I respect you as a poster! :rose:

 

[greenthumb]

We can have slight differences of opinion on this though and it's all good--I respect you as a poster! :rose:

I agree, Minette

It's the differences in the way we see things that make us all think more about it, and I'm glad to read & consider everyone's differing viewpoints. Discussion is good! Debate is good! Thanks for sharing your thoughts

You've given me much to think about.

 

[Deleted member 96356]

The family has filed a claim against the school district over how the bullying and events around her death were handled:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-audrie-pott-claim-20130417,0,5356729.story

On top of it all, they say the school announced Audrie's death over the intercom before family knew she had passed away. Good lord.

I know multiple people who sent their kids to that school. It has one of the best reputations - people move to get in the Saratoga school limits just so their kids can attend there. And Saratoga ain't a cheap place to live. Even outside Saratoga's Platinum Triangle, housing prices are high. So I'm getting a kick out of all the gasps and pearl-clutching going on in Saratoga over this case. Right, like only the "brown" kids in East San Jose would do such a thing... (is there an emoticon for eye-rolling?)

 

[Minette]

Some of the comments under that article are disgusting.

 

[Deleted member 96356]

Some of the comments under that article are disgusting.

Yeah, I never read the comments on news stories. Too many trolls trolling... and nutjobs.

The school superintendent has issued a public statement. Among many other things, he says that the school was not approached by Audrie or her family with complaints regarding bullying prior to Audrie's death, and that they had the permission of her step-mother to announce Audrie's death at the school. He said, she said, he said:

http://saratoga.patch.com/articles/...s-message-to-community-about-audrie-pott-case

He said, she said, he said....

 

[noZme]

This is not new, but I found several articles published this week to add to this thread.

SARATOGA, Calif. - Three teenage boys have admitted to sexually assaulting a Northern California girl who later committed suicide after photographs of the attack were circulated to classmates.

Audrie Pott, 15, hanged herself on Sept. 10, 2012, eight days after attending a party at a friend's house in Saratoga, Calif. After drinking Gatorade laced with alcohol, she fell asleep and later woke with her pants off and with lewd comments scribbled all over her body.


In the week following the party, Audrie learned that cellphone photos had been taken of her during the assault and shared through text messages, her family said. She posted in private messages on Facebook in the days before her suicide: "My life is over. I have a reputation for a night I don't even remember, and the whole school knows."

The boys' names have not been released, but two have been ordered to serve 30 days — during weekends — in juvenile detention, and the third was sentenced to 45 consecutive days. That is in stark contrast to the maximum 10-year sentence they might have received as adults.

The three defendants have been sued by Audrie's parents.

http://www.businessinsider.com/details-on-audrie-potts-suicide-2013-9

http://www.wbtw.com/story/24472794/...ys-photos-leaked-just-days-before-her-suicide

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-co...-boys-admit-sexually-assaulting-saratoga-teen

 

[Reader]

It's hard to believe some of these quotes in noZme's Mercury News link:

"It's what I call justice by geography. The juvenile court has wide disparities in the amount of penalties it connects to specific behaviors," said Barry Krisberg, a juvenile justice expert and senior fellow at UC Berkeley law school. "On average, Santa Clara (County) has lower sentences than other places. They've embraced the treatment and rehabilitation strategy" -- a mission of California's welfare and institutions code -- "so this doesn't completely surprise me."

The new court records also indicate that two of the boys -- months after Audrie killed herself but before they were arrested in April 2013 -- were found with additional photos of naked girls on their phones. Both boys admitted to extra felonies of possessing or controlling sexual photos of girls under 18.

In past statements, the boys' attorneys have said the allegations were exaggerated by the media. In a Rolling Stone article last fall, one of the boy's parents called it "a prank by a few kids, and it's blown out of proportion.''

In court documents filed last week, a lawyer for one of the boys said Audrie's divorced parents, not the boys, were at least partially to blame. Audrie split time living with her mother in Los Altos and her father, stepmother and three half-siblings in Saratoga.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

As much as I hate what these boys have done, and believe that they must be held accountable... I also do not want to think that the answer is ruining the lives of 16 year old boys.

They are really just children yet themselves... children who have not been given the proper guidance, examples and limits... by their parents, the education system, society as a whole. Somehow, as a whole, we are not holding up the ideals of honour, respect, empathy, responsibility for our children, and that is failing a whole generation, IMO. As we know, children learn what they live, and live what they've learned.

It saddens me to think that these young boys have not been taught to be young men of honour... have they had any leadership from righteous and upstanding men in their lives? There aren't many examples of those kinds of men in movies, or on TV, or in music... so where are boys to learn how to be good men? We aren't promoting decency and accountability in our society much these days.

All just MOO.

BBM: You're kidding me, right? I don't know if their punishment will "ruin" their lives but we must have accountability in our society. And so be it.

 

[SophieRose]

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_25628431/man-files-lawsuit-saying-he-is-audrie-potts

A man filed a lawsuit today in Santa Clara County Superior Court in San Jose declaring that he is the biological father of teen suicide victim Audrie Pott and should be included in a wrongful death lawsuit as a legal heir.

Michael Lazarin, 46, claims that Sheila and Lawrence Pott, the teen girl's legal parents, falsely claimed to be her sole heirs in the suit they lodged a year ago, seven months after Audrie's death by suicide on Sept. 12, 2012.

 

[OkieGranny]

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_25993733/audrie-pott-case-man-appear-court-argue-he

A man insisting he is the biological father of teen suicide victim Audrie Pott will be in Santa Clara County Superior Court in San Jose on Thursday morning to argue why he should be included in a wrongful death lawsuit as her legal heir.

Michael Lazarin has stated in court papers that as the biological father of the late teen, he has standing to join a lawsuit filed by her parents Sheila and Lawrence Pott, who claim to be her sole legal heirs in their lawsuit filed after Audrie's suicide...

Lazarin used as exhibits in his case family photos of him, Sheila, Audrie and other Lazarin family members taken up to December 2003, when Audrie was 6 and when Lazarin and Sheila broke up.

 

[HMSHood]

BBM: You're kidding me, right? I don't know if their punishment will "ruin" their lives but we must have accountability in our society. And so be it.

Sadly, punishment is not enough. And, yes they should be punished severely. I wonder what kind of upbringing those teenagers had.