CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #10

[MsBetsy]

More
than likely after the second day would be recovery

Yes, either one. They would not stop the search just because they no longer believe she could be alive. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Would Thermal Imaging Camera or Infra-Red Camera Help Now? Or Before?

@MsBetsy Hello again. bbm IIUC, both types of cameras detect differences in temperature among the objects within the frame.

W no scientific link to support it I wonder, if remains have been there for 2 1/2 mo, whether the remains and surrounding ground would reach temperature parity.
If they were same temperature, neither the thermal imaging camera/TIC or infra-red camera would distinguish the remains from surrounding ground, IIUC, so would not be helpful.

If TIC or infra-red camera had taken image within a short time (say one day? maybe more?) of exact location of newly deceased body, IIUC, the temps of body and ground would be different. If so then camera could have taken image, by which LE/SAR could have located remains.
jmo, could be all wrong.
________________________________________________
“Wescott does his work with human remains in central Texas, where temperatures can average in the 90s during the summer months. In the intense sun, the bodies “mummify pretty quickly, within about three months,” he said. “Then it takes a long time for them to decay past that. In shaded areas, after three to four months, they become a skeleton.” In general — though not always — he’s found that bodies decompose faster in hotter, more humid climes than in colder, drier spots.

This is true not only for human remains but animal remains as well, Wescott added.”
^ From Flesh to Bone: The Role of Weather in Body Decomposition | The Weather Channel

"The temperature surrounding the corpse can be affected by the weather, but also whether the cadaver was found in the sunlight or in the shade is pertinent.
^ Decomposition – The Forensics Library
^ aboutforensics.co.uk/decomposition

There was one case that I read about where a body was found four months after death in a similar environment.
In the article they described how due to insect activity and bacteria and other materials that resulted from the decomposition the area around the body was still warmer than the environment. They used thermal imaging to find it.

That's what made me think it's not too late. Imo

 

[Steelslady]

Sorry , but SAR can only search an area for so long. It is expensive and takes a lot of resources from other cases.
I live in the Mojave desert and it happens.
It happens too often.
One HAS to see the terrain, be in the terrain and experience just HOW disorienting it is.
Finding someone out here that goes "off trail" is akin to finding a needle in a haystack, with the odds DECREASING any time the weather changes.
A monsoon season will cover tracks, items, trails and shift boulders when the rains have been heavy.
The Mojave has taken many, and if the victims aren't found in the first week,
it isn't uncommon for them to remain lost for years.

EBM for spelling

I have to tell you something- I have nothing but respect for SAR.

Yesterday, I did an intermediate hike up a mountain with lots of vertical areas to climb- some areas I had to literally crawl under, crawl up while holding on to rocks/trees, go down backwards on my hands and knees, climb over large tree stumps, and I am just a hiker!

I can't imagine being one of these great folks, giving up their time, taking training classes, etc just to do this to help others find loved ones, only to read deflating comments because they didn't find the victim. I challenge any of the negative nellies to go on the highest level of hiking- advanced/hard/difficult, and do it during the hottest and coldest days of the year. It just might open up some folks eyes, but some.......well, they'll just assume that these folks aren't doing enough, most of them volunteers.

 

[PommyMommy]

I have to tell you something- I have nothing but respect for SAR.

Yesterday, I did an intermediate hike up a mountain with lots of vertical areas to climb- some areas I had to literally crawl under, crawl up while holding on to rocks/trees, go down backwards on my hands and knees, climb over large tree stumps, and I am just a hiker!

I can't imagine being one of these great folks, giving up their time, taking training classes, etc just to do this to help others find loved ones, only to read deflating comments because they didn't find the victim. I challenge any of the negative nellies to go on the highest level of hiking- advanced/hard/difficult, and do it during the hottest and coldest days of the year. It just might open up some folks eyes, but some.......well, they'll just assume that these folks aren't doing enough, most of them volunteers.

Can we have a round of applause for this post, please?!!! MOO

 

[al66pine]

Does Insect Activity Generate Enough Heat to Help Thermal Imaging in Locating Remains?

There was one case that I read about where a body was found four months after death in a similar environment.
In the article they described how due to insect activity and bacteria and other materials that resulted from the decomposition the area around the body was still warmer than the environment. They used thermal imaging to find it. That's what made me think it's not too late. Imo

@MsBetsy Interesting to see this.
Maybe insect & bacteria activity generates enough heat.
I wonder what the effects of sunlight plus high daytime temps then cooler nights, starting in mid July, have on this process?
If you recall anything further --- names, locations, year, LE agency, website url, etc. about ^ case, so we could google & find it, I'd like to read it. Thanks.

 

[MsBetsy]

Does Insect Activity Generate Enough Heat to Help Thermal Imaging in Locating Remains?
@MsBetsy Interesting to see this.
Maybe insect & bacteria activity generates enough heat.
I wonder what the effects of sunlight plus high daytime temps then cooler nights, starting in mid July, have on this process?
If you recall anything further --- names, locations, year, LE agency, website url, etc. about ^ case, so we could google & find it, I'd like to read it. Thanks.

Yeah, I'm really interested in all that stuff. I'm going to see if I can find the article but there was also another one I read when I was following the Mollie Tibbetts case that was even more informative.

It described how the body cools down at some point but then later on during decomposition warms back up again and gradually the earth around it gets warmer.

If there was foul play and the body was buried, it might be even easier to find.
I also read in drier climates the body can actually be preserved.

I'll see if I can find those articles again.
It may be awhile since my daughter just got home from school.

IMO

 

[10ofRods]

@10ofRods Thanks for your post. Always good to hear from those w local-ish experience.
$1000 per day? We must be thinking about different things.
{{ETA: Deleted some.
My post said: "Rental car." I was thinking, say, Hertz.}}

After the Great Temperature Debate of 2019, I sh/have refrained from posting travel ideas . LOL

I was just exploring the non-rental car options. The upshot is, if you want to go search in the Mojave, you need a rental car. Unless you are rich.

Rental cars are only about $50 a day (can be less with a loyalty program), but cannot be taken on Hidden Hills Road...still, lots of areas could be searched. I think LE thinks she's still out there, but they know that it's like a needle in a haystack thing.

 

[Steelslady]

Can we have a round of applause for this post, please?!!! MOO

Awe, you are too sweet, Poms.

Seriously, though. It was a perfect day for hiking- not too hot, not too cold- just right.

The day before, we did a small hill to a fire tower.

Yesterday, we did a state park mountain climb- it wasn't a huge mountain, but still, up to the fire tower we went, and we came around a different way down, to go by the river- a seriously frightening area, which was treacherous. I told our daughter that I was trying to save my own life from falling 20 feet down (it was just about a foot wide, the trail, at this point- very wet so I slipped) to appreciate the view, and that her Dad was too busy trying to help save my life to enjoy the view. Once we got past that area, it was gorgeous. We ate lunch, then did a 2 mile easy trail around a lake after, to cool down.

Now, we're in decent shape, hubby and I. These SAR members? Exceptional shape. However, that doesn't make them any less human! We have caring human beings out there doing the work to help family and friends find their loved one. Again, I challenge anyone to do a hike on the hardest local trail that you can find- make it challenging, and do it once on the hottest day of the summer, then coldest day of the winter- preferably with snow and ice.

Then come back here and tell us just how easy it is to be a SAR member. These folks start out determined to find that person. Go out day after day, until they find the victim, or they're told the search is done. Doggies get paw burns and frost bite. Dehydration. Exhaustion. Those are physical symptoms. Mentally, it has to be devastating to not find a victim, through no fault of their own. I have done searches before- you already know about a couple of them, @PommyMommy , one that still haunts me to this day, as the man was found two weeks later just yards from where my sister, daughter and I heard moaning. According to the coroner, he was already deceased when we searched that day, but we heard him, we know we did. It will haunt the three of us forever, sis and daughter can't even talk about it. We tried! We went under trees, got scratches on our faces from branches, climbed under and over rocks, we were frantically trying to find him. So, my hat is off to all SAR members. Especially if they tried to find a victim and somehow missed them, alive or deceased. It haunts you for years- even though the coroner said he was deceased by then and we were torturing ourselves, we just don't believe it.

Donate to your states SAR team. You never know when someone you love or yourself might need them one day. Amazing folks.

 

[10ofRods]

I didn't know it was ruled out.
I was referring to thermal imagining, where the heat created by a decomposing body and the ground surrounding it would be warmer than the environment.
Or maybe it's infra red camera's.
Either one.
I thought both could detect heat.

Imo

SBSCO said that the temps (at the time) ruled out using the temperature technology that they had available. There's probably no budget for more fancy technologies. I think we're well past the phase where active decomposition is going to create enough heat to be seen above the heat signature of the desert.

The decomposition has to be significantly different from surrounding temp for it to work (so if it were still ongoing, it might work now - but it isn't the kind of camera that the SBSCO has on their helicopter units, I am told that theirs is FLIR).

In the Mojave, even decomposing larger animals are not significantly warmer than the ground around when it's summer. It's definitely gotten to be autumn-like conditions though. But I fear that by now, the body is largely skeleton. It's true that dry weather slows down decomp (but slowing down decomp means little to no heat signature - you need enough activity from those little lifeforms for the heat to be generated).

At any rate, all of these things are expensive. Drones are probably one of the two least expensive options - cadaver dog would be my own first proposal (but I think those searches aren't cheap, either - but significantly less than hiring a professional drone search group). I do not know why they didn't have a cadaver dog out there toward the end of the search. I'm guessing budget reasons, the temporal window (8-9 days) seems about right, to me, to begin that kind of work.

 

[10ofRods]

There was one case that I read about where a body was found four months after death in a similar environment.
In the article they described how due to insect activity and bacteria and other materials that resulted from the decomposition the area around the body was still warmer than the environment. They used thermal imaging to find it.

That's what made me think it's not too late. Imo

If you can find the case, that would be really interesting and helpful. It *is* getting cold out there, so if decomp is still occurring, then yes, it would be worth a try (if someone could pay for it). Both the cameras and the number of fly-overs (not to mention the experts needed to look at the data) are expensive. There might be quite a few hits that are not human, as well. It would be a fascinating thing to try, though.

 

[PommyMommy]

Awe, you are too sweet, Poms.

Seriously, though. It was a perfect day for hiking- not too hot, not too cold- just right.

The day before, we did a small hill to a fire tower.

Yesterday, we did a state park mountain climb- it wasn't a huge mountain, but still, up to the fire tower we went, and we came around a different way down, to go by the river- a seriously frightening area, which was treacherous. I told our daughter that I was trying to save my own life from falling 20 feet down (it was just about a foot wide, the trail, at this point- very wet so I slipped) to appreciate the view, and that her Dad was too busy trying to help save my life to enjoy the view. Once we got past that area, it was gorgeous. We ate lunch, then did a 2 mile easy trail around a lake after, to cool down.

Now, we're in decent shape, hubby and I. These SAR members? Exceptional shape. However, that doesn't make them any less human! We have caring human beings out there doing the work to help family and friends find their loved one. Again, I challenge anyone to do a hike on the hardest local trail that you can find- make it challenging, and do it once on the hottest day of the summer, then coldest day of the winter- preferably with snow and ice.

Then come back here and tell us just how easy it is to be a SAR member. These folks start out determined to find that person. Go out day after day, until they find the victim, or they're told the search is done. Doggies get paw burns and frost bite. Dehydration. Exhaustion. Those are physical symptoms. Mentally, it has to be devastating to not find a victim, through no fault of their own. I have done searches before- you already know about a couple of them, @PommyMommy , one that still haunts me to this day, as the man was found two weeks later just yards from where my sister, daughter and I heard moaning. According to the coroner, he was already deceased when we searched that day, but we heard him, we know we did. It will haunt the three of us forever, sis and daughter can't even talk about it. We tried! We went under trees, got scratches on our faces from branches, climbed under and over rocks, we were frantically trying to find him. So, my hat is off to all SAR members. Especially if they tried to find a victim and somehow missed them, alive or deceased. It haunts you for years- even though the coroner said he was deceased by then and we were torturing ourselves, we just don't believe it.

Donate to your states SAR team. You never know when someone you love or yourself might need them one day. Amazing folks.

Wow, wow, wow...! Thank you for sharing that.

I just can't imagine searching in that heat; no way, Jose. Same with the snow and ice in Serenity's case. I'm absolutely amazed at these SAR teams and so grateful for their efforts.

Speaking of which, gosh do I wish we could get Tim there!

#Lostisnotalone MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

If you can find the case, that would be really interesting and helpful. It *is* getting cold out there, so if decomp is still occurring, then yes, it would be worth a try (if someone could pay for it). Both the cameras and the number of fly-overs (not to mention the experts needed to look at the data) are expensive. There might be quite a few hits that are not human, as well. It would be a fascinating thing to try, though.

I'm still working on finding it but I did find a bunch of other cases where ancient towns or civilisations and bones were found using thermal imaging.

The stones and rocks underground retain heat making it warmer, apparently.

And yes, it did say using very expensive thermal sensors, or something like that.

 

[shanadk]

On the way BACK down this trail, BT would have had a clear view of the road. And with the surrounding cholla cactus and lack of anything noteworthy off-trail, I cannot imagine her wandering off-trail and getting lost in this specific location. IF by chance she did, a 9-day search by a team of experienced rescuers equipped with off-road vehicles, helicopters, and search dogs should have revealed her whereabouts.

THIS.
I don't feel that BT is near the rock formation .
Not sure she was there at all.

 

[tmar]

I don't disagree with your general statement. However, in this particular case, we are discussing a short walk (~1 mile walk) on a trail that leads to a rock formation (see enclosed picture.) The person who took this picture is a WS member who WAS there (ref. media thread, link below.) On the way BACK down this trail, BT would have had a clear view of the road. And with the surrounding cholla cactus and lack of anything noteworthy off-trail, I cannot imagine her wandering off-trail and getting lost in this specific location. IF by chance she did, a 9-day search by a team of experienced rescuers equipped with off-road vehicles, helicopters, and search dogs should have revealed her whereabouts.

MOO, and I respect those who hold a different opinion.

AZ - AZ - Barbara Thomas, 69, Timeline, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION*

I agree that a 69 year old lady, wouldn't walk very far, in the desert, even if 'off the trail'.
Searches in the vicinity of the trail, would have found BT if present, in this area.
BT couldn't bury herself, in the area, not to be found.
So, where is BT?
Probably not near the trail, that supposedly, she was on!!!
MOO.

 

[bykerladi]

I think I've said this before, but how do we know she was even ever in the desert that day?

 

[Chingaling]

Yes, either one. They would not stop the search just because they no longer believe she could be alive. Imo

Agree I think they searched until they were satisfied she wasn't there to be found.

 

[Chingaling]

Wow, wow, wow...! Thank you for sharing that.Tim is a great person I watched him search for Caylee Anthony and he had Casey pegged in minutes he knew she killed her kid.Wish he could been there at the beginning with RT.Tim would have felt him out,wise man.

I just can't imagine searching in that heat; no way, Jose. Same with the snow and ice in Serenity's case. I'm absolutely amazed at these SAR teams and so grateful for their efforts.

Speaking of which, gosh do I wish we could get Tim there!

#Lostisnotalone MOO

 

[10ofRods]

I'm still working on finding it but I did find a bunch of other cases where ancient towns or civilisations and bones were found using thermal imaging.

The stones and rocks underground retain heat making it warmer, apparently.

And yes, it did say using very expensive thermal sensors, or something like that.

I still think you're referring to LiDAR (which is not thermal, it's using light and refraction, at least as I understand it). It requires sequential flyovers of incredible detail. It's also used to help build self-driving cars (basically like seeing with really good eyes, the light is bouncing back to the laser sensor in a very directed way).

This Ancient Civilization Was Twice As Big As Medieval England

I posted more links yesterday. It is very expensive. I do think that's what you're thinking of - and it would require specialized software to detect (over time) a human body. What it's detecting in the ruins is the subtle and gradual subsiding of soil as hollow spaces in the ground slowly collapse. In that way, it gives a map of rooms and roads that are now under ground (under other ruins). It's very exciting for archaeologists.

I don't know of any method in which stones and rocks in ruins radiate heat to the surface or any method by which either archaeologists or geologists are able to type/image stones/bones underground using the heat of those objects.

But, to use it to find a body, one would be measuring the subsidence of the body itself. The body would need to be within the initial "photos" and then appear to be reducing in size as time went on. Or if someone dug a grave, that might show up too. But there are other, cheaper ways to probe for graves and the number of pass overs required with the laser tech is unknown and dependent on the rate of soil subsidence in the area mapped. If the Mayans hadn't elevated their roadways (which then collapsed into cake-like layers), this tech would only have worked for their buildings.

I can't find any evidence that it has been used for bodies. And since paleoanthropologists live to find bones and bodies, if it were feasible, I'm sure they are adapting it. No one I've talked to sees how one could use LiDAR (at this point in time) to find bodies.

Really good drone shots, combined with AI, can do it though. This is especially true if there's a high res photograph of the area (which I estimate to be 16-20 square miles for Barbara, at a minimum) to start with. Then, a computer can sense change points in future high res photographs, at different points in time. No lasers needed. Bodies have been found with this method. Bodies have also been found by volunteers studying high res from just one pass over. Some people are super talented at this (it's almost more of a mental gift than a learned skill). It's like those Highlights "find the object" puzzles most of us saw as kids. If, however, the body is under something or obscured from a sky view, it doesn't work so well.

That's why most missing persons are found by human eyes, boots on the ground. I just went to a SAR training (I'm not SAR, but am sometimes involved in training/recruitment) and they said 70% of finding humans (live or not) is human eyes, not dogs or drones. But drones could really help in the Mojave, I think.

I'm still curious about the decomp method you mentioned though - it sounds intriguing (but I'm guessing that the amount of bacteria and insect life is higher in more forested areas, so it would be interesting to know where it's been used).

Citations on LiDAR (used to find the Mayan and Angkor ruins):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440310003286

Geospatial revolution and remote sensing LiDAR in Mesoamerican archaeology

Uncovering archaeological landscapes at Angkor using lidar

The reason this was so useful in lowland Maya areas is that this system can "see" through leaves and down to the ground, which has characteristic patterns (created over a period of many centuries) that show signs of civilization beneath (roads, buildings, bridges, etc). Graves can be seen as grave-sized depressions, but the objects need to cause displacement of the topsoil. They're using it now to try and peer down on Stonehenge to see if there are now-hidden stones (holding up topsoil while the remainder subsides).

 

[10ofRods]

Agree I think they searched until they were satisfied she wasn't there to be found.

I disagree. I believe they would (just as they stopped the search for the missing Canadian in Joshua Tree, and for many missing persons in San Bernardino County, as well as missing persons in Yosemite, Grand Canyon and Sequoia NP's). Or for my friend, Theo, who is still missing. They don't just keep searching and searching. The search for Paul Miller in Joshua Tree (whose exact last location was presumed to be his car, and he had left word of where he was going) went on for almost 5 weeks. It was much larger than Barbara's search, but it was also a NP that attracts and can organize a large number of volunteers.

Yosemite alone has 30 missing persons right now. Searches were stopped at times varying from 2 days to 2 weeks, with longer times in more recent years. Informal searching, of course, continues and there are posters for some of the individuals (along with trail head info, etc). 4 people went missing in Lake Mead in the past year or so, there are no ongoing searches.

The search for Gabriel Parker in Grand Canyon wound down after just over a week (his body was found 8 months later by hikers, IIRC). That was in 95-96.

As you can probably tell, this topic is of extreme interest to me, and it's really hard to pry all the information out of the various search/LE services, but I'm trying. I was pretty shocked to hear that Yosemite still has 30 missing persons (not counting people who went missing so long ago that they couldn't possibly be alive in any scenario nor could we likely identify a set of bones at this point in time - not enough info on who they were, what they looked like).

I'd love to see a database of wilderness missing persons in the US.

 

[10ofRods]

Google satellite view of the "intersection" of trails ¼ of a mile from the Thomas's RV. As you can see, there's more than one trail.

Here's a closer look:



That trail on the diagonal, lower right is the trail back to the parking area. Both of those other trails cross it and go parallel to the road, not to the road. The RV would not be visible from every point along either of those secondary trails.