CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #10

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  • #941
I disagree. I believe they would (just as they stopped the search for the missing Canadian in Joshua Tree, and for many missing persons in San Bernardino County, as well as missing persons in Yosemite, Grand Canyon and Sequoia NP's). Or for my friend, Theo, who is still missing. They don't just keep searching and searching. The search for Paul Miller in Joshua Tree (whose exact last location was presumed to be his car, and he had left word of where he was going) went on for almost 5 weeks. It was much larger than Barbara's search, but it was also a NP that attracts and can organize a large number of volunteers.

Yosemite alone has 30 missing persons right now. Searches were stopped at times varying from 2 days to 2 weeks, with longer times in more recent years. Informal searching, of course, continues and there are posters for some of the individuals (along with trail head info, etc). 4 people went missing in Lake Mead in the past year or so, there are no ongoing searches.

The search for Gabriel Parker in Grand Canyon wound down after just over a week (his body was found 8 months later by hikers, IIRC). That was in 95-96.

As you can probably tell, this topic is of extreme interest to me, and it's really hard to pry all the information out of the various search/LE services, but I'm trying. I was pretty shocked to hear that Yosemite still has 30 missing persons (not counting people who went missing so long ago that they couldn't possibly be alive in any scenario nor could we likely identify a set of bones at this point in time - not enough info on who they were, what they looked like).

I'd love to see a database of wilderness missing persons in the US.
Thanks for your awesome input! I too would like to see a database of missing wilderness or hiking persons (not sure if it exists) along with the circumstances in which they went missing. MOO
 
  • #942
I still think you're referring to LiDAR (which is not thermal, it's using light and refraction, at least as I understand it). It requires sequential flyovers of incredible detail. It's also used to help build self-driving cars (basically like seeing with really good eyes, the light is bouncing back to the laser sensor in a very directed way).

This Ancient Civilization Was Twice As Big As Medieval England

I posted more links yesterday. It is very expensive. I do think that's what you're thinking of - and it would require specialized software to detect (over time) a human body. What it's detecting in the ruins is the subtle and gradual subsiding of soil as hollow spaces in the ground slowly collapse. In that way, it gives a map of rooms and roads that are now under ground (under other ruins). It's very exciting for archaeologists.

I don't know of any method in which stones and rocks in ruins radiate heat to the surface or any method by which either archaeologists or geologists are able to type/image stones/bones underground using the heat of those objects.

But, to use it to find a body, one would be measuring the subsidence of the body itself. The body would need to be within the initial "photos" and then appear to be reducing in size as time went on. Or if someone dug a grave, that might show up too. But there are other, cheaper ways to probe for graves and the number of pass overs required with the laser tech is unknown and dependent on the rate of soil subsidence in the area mapped. If the Mayans hadn't elevated their roadways (which then collapsed into cake-like layers), this tech would only have worked for their buildings.

I can't find any evidence that it has been used for bodies. And since paleoanthropologists live to find bones and bodies, if it were feasible, I'm sure they are adapting it. No one I've talked to sees how one could use LiDAR (at this point in time) to find bodies.

Really good drone shots, combined with AI, can do it though. This is especially true if there's a high res photograph of the area (which I estimate to be 16-20 square miles for Barbara, at a minimum) to start with. Then, a computer can sense change points in future high res photographs, at different points in time. No lasers needed. Bodies have been found with this method. Bodies have also been found by volunteers studying high res from just one pass over. Some people are super talented at this (it's almost more of a mental gift than a learned skill). It's like those Highlights "find the object" puzzles most of us saw as kids. If, however, the body is under something or obscured from a sky view, it doesn't work so well.

That's why most missing persons are found by human eyes, boots on the ground. I just went to a SAR training (I'm not SAR, but am sometimes involved in training/recruitment) and they said 70% of finding humans (live or not) is human eyes, not dogs or drones. But drones could really help in the Mojave, I think.

I'm still curious about the decomp method you mentioned though - it sounds intriguing (but I'm guessing that the amount of bacteria and insect life is higher in more forested areas, so it would be interesting to know where it's been used).

Citations on LiDAR (used to find the Mayan and Angkor ruins):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440310003286

Geospatial revolution and remote sensing LiDAR in Mesoamerican archaeology

Uncovering archaeological landscapes at Angkor using lidar

The reason this was so useful in lowland Maya areas is that this system can "see" through leaves and down to the ground, which has characteristic patterns (created over a period of many centuries) that show signs of civilization beneath (roads, buildings, bridges, etc). Graves can be seen as grave-sized depressions, but the objects need to cause displacement of the topsoil. They're using it now to try and peer down on Stonehenge to see if there are now-hidden stones (holding up topsoil while the remainder subsides).
Well, I've found so many articles I got distracted reading them because they are so interesting.

I couldn't find the original one that mentioned using a Drone and thermal imagining to find stones underground but I found another one.

It's in Science Magazine and the title is "Aerial Drones Reveal Hidden Archeology."

It states that "buried stones, for example, tend to retain heat more than the dry soil around them. In the morning, the stones will be much warmer than the surrounding earth."

They actually say this method of using thermal imaging is much less costly than whatever is normally used.

The other case about the man being found was in an article talking about Drone searches. It was not an article about the case itself, it was just mentioned as an example.

The other article was an article I read about what happens as a body decomposes and how the ground surrounding it becomes warmer than the temperature in the environment.
It was specifically about using Drones to find Mollie Tibbett's body.

That was the article that described the insect activity and how the flesh breaks down and fluids and bacteria from the body seep into the surrounding soil becoming part of it, making it warmer.

It was a different kind of environment, though. Her body was found in a cornfield.

IMO
 
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  • #943
It's been a while since I've had a chance to check in on this case. Still no Barbara??
:(:(:(
<sigh>
 
  • #944
I disagree. I believe they would (just as they stopped the search for the missing Canadian in Joshua Tree, and for many missing persons in San Bernardino County, as well as missing persons in Yosemite, Grand Canyon and Sequoia NP's). Or for my friend, Theo, who is still missing. They don't just keep searching and searching. The search for Paul Miller in Joshua Tree (whose exact last location was presumed to be his car, and he had left word of where he was going) went on for almost 5 weeks. It was much larger than Barbara's search, but it was also a NP that attracts and can organize a large number of volunteers.

Yosemite alone has 30 missing persons right now. Searches were stopped at times varying from 2 days to 2 weeks, with longer times in more recent years. Informal searching, of course, continues and there are posters for some of the individuals (along with trail head info, etc). 4 people went missing in Lake Mead in the past year or so, there are no ongoing searches.

The search for Gabriel Parker in Grand Canyon wound down after just over a week (his body was found 8 months later by hikers, IIRC). That was in 95-96.

As you can probably tell, this topic is of extreme interest to me, and it's really hard to pry all the information out of the various search/LE services, but I'm trying. I was pretty shocked to hear that Yosemite still has 30 missing persons (not counting people who went missing so long ago that they couldn't possibly be alive in any scenario nor could we likely identify a set of bones at this point in time - not enough info on who they were, what they looked like).

I'd love to see a database of wilderness missing persons in the US.

This article is interesting & depressing. How 1,600 People Disappeared on Our Public Lands

How 1,600 People Went Missing from Our Public Lands Without a Trace
The Department of the Interior knows how many wolves and grizzly bears roam its wilds—can’t it keep track of visitors who disappear? But the government does not actively aggregate such statistics. The Department of Justice keeps a database, the National Missing and Unidentified Persons System, but reporting missing persons is voluntary in all but ten states, and law-enforcement and coroner participation is voluntary as well. So a lot of the missing are also missing from the database.

After the September 11 attacks, Interior tried to build its own database to track law-enforcement actions across lands managed by the National Park Service, Bureau of Land Management, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and Bureau of Indian Affairs. (The Forest Service is under the Department of Agriculture.) The result, the Incident Management Analysis and Reporting System, is a $50 million Database to Nowhere—last year, only 14 percent of the several hundred reportable incidents were entered into it. The system is so flawed that Fish and Wildlife has said no thanks and refuses to use it.​

 
  • #945
Thanks for your awesome input! I too would like to see a database of missing wilderness or hiking persons (not sure if it exists) along with the circumstances in which they went missing. MOO

In the article I linked in the prior post, there is a link to a website created by David Paulides (a former police officer with a controversial theory on what is behind the disappearances).

I've deleted the link to the site as I'm not sure it's allowed per TOS as it seems to be encouraging people to purchase the guy's books.
 
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  • #946
Yeah, I'm really interested in all that stuff. I'm going to see if I can find the article but there was also another one I read when I was following the Mollie Tibbetts case that was even more informative.

It described how the body cools down at some point but then later on during decomposition warms back up again and gradually the earth around it gets warmer.

If there was foul play and the body was buried, it might be even easier to find.
I also read in drier climates the body can actually be preserved.

I'll see if I can find those articles again.
It may be awhile since my daughter just got home from school.

IMO
I know garbage is hot as it decomposes. Check out your kitchen garbage next time you take it out. I'm always amazed at how warm it is.
 
  • #947
I know garbage is hot as it decomposes. Check out your kitchen garbage next time you take it out. I'm always amazed at how warm it is.
I will try that. I've always carried it out by the top of the bag so I never noticed.
 
  • #948
In the article I linked in the prior post, there is a link to a website created by David Paulides (a former police officer with a controversial theory on what is behind the disappearances).

I've deleted the link to the site as I'm not sure it's allowed per TOS as it seems to be encouraging people to purchase the guy's books.
What's the theory?
 
  • #949
  • #950
Bigfoot abduction. :D
I have no idea what the truth is; but I was given one of Paulides' books by my ex bf, and found it well researched and thought provoking.
He has written about some very heartbreaking disappearances in parks and wilderness, including Dennis Martin, Jaryd Atedero and Deorr Kunz Jr.
 
  • #951
There is so much unknown at this time, it's hard to continue to post. I will say that I've never seen a spouse or significant other react the way RT has in regards to the total silence from his end.

No searches, vigils, pleas, reward......nothing. I'm sure there are things going on that we are not privy to, but there is no way I would go radio silent if my darling hubs disappeared without a trace.

Trust me, I understand that people go missing on hikes all the time. What I can't understand here is that she was with a partner, was less than 440 yards from the RV (according to RT), walking in a direct, flat route, was healthy and an experienced hiker, and POOF, she just vanished into thin air leaving no trace behind.

Nope, the hinky meter just won't move from the red zone.

MOO
 
  • #952
View attachment 207102

Google satellite view of the "intersection" of trails ¼ of a mile from the Thomas's RV. As you can see, there's more than one trail.

Here's a closer look:

View attachment 207104

That trail on the diagonal, lower right is the trail back to the parking area. Both of those other trails cross it and go parallel to the road, not to the road. The RV would not be visible from every point along either of those secondary trails.

Thank you for this post with maps. I have rather obsessively looked at the satellite maps and photos posted by various members (including @sroad and @DianaElaine), hoping for some insight about where she is (none yet!). I wish I could go to the area and see it for myself.

I have also gone back to look at old posts by our VI, @dbdb11. I have pasted in below excerpts from his rather long , speculative post on July 31 that describes what RT told the VI's family, with my bolding and comments in red:

"...They parked the camper on the pull off, just speculating here of course, hid truck/RV key under a rock they both would be able to find quite easily, they crossed over Kelbaker road (with a camera?, a gallon of water, at least one beer in a travel mug or coozie?, Barb in either bikini top or possibly bra? Robbie carrying a pack of some kind?), once on the other side of the road they proceeded to walk (NOT HIKE) approx 2 miles (exactly 2.2 miles according to Robbie's correspondence [possibly email?] with us) towards a hill that could be seen from the parking area just ahead of where they pulled off the road."

[This suggests that after they parked at the pullout, they first walked to a hill, took the 360 photo, and then walked to a nearby rock formation. But exactly what hill, and which rock formation, and which trails they took are not clear.]

"Once on this hill Barb decided to take a panorama photo of their surroundings.... Robbie claims the 360/panorama photo Barb took from this hill includes cars in the parking lot below, potentially even license plate numbers? and was very upset police were not looking into the owners of these cars as potential suspects (and were instead suspecting him, and seemingly ignoring his statements on the day she went missing)....

"As they were on the way back from the hill, towards their RV, there was a rock formation Robbie implies they were both interested in. He stopped to take a photo of this rock formation and "asked Barb to stay with me," but she went on ahead anyway. Sounds quite stubborn of her. Perhaps they had some kind of disagreement? In any case, he says she wanted to get back to the RV.

"This is where Barb rounds a corner, we can assume she rounds a boulder outcrop [Not clear that is a correct assumption, as it could have been a turn in a trail where she was obscured by vegetation] that puts her out of Robbie's sight. Robbie has never specified how long he spent taking photos of this rock formation, [suggests to me that might have been quite a bit longer than than 5 minutes] but he claimed to us that police have photos of Barb on the walk, that day, and that police have photos of the rock formation as well. Robbie and Barb have no known social media accounts where they share photos of their adventures with friends/family...."

Caveat: This post and my comments above do not account for things dbdb11 may have learned after his July 31 post that changed his views on what happened on July 12.

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #4
 
  • #953
I know garbage is hot as it decomposes. Check out your kitchen garbage next time you take it out. I'm always amazed at how warm it is.
And how many barn fires are caused by decomposing hay/straw that had too much moisture in it- It can get hot enough to combust.

Don’t Risk Hay Fires — Ag News from NDSU

But I don't think a body has enough mass to produce much heat for very long; perhaps a couple of days. And remember that the imaging technology is looking for a gradient of temperature and displaying the gradient as a color map. If the surroundings are also very warm you won't see anything.
 
  • #954




Hiking
, walking in nature as a recreational activity.
Hiking | sport


The Thomas's went on a remote Mojave National Preserve trail with preparation.

BT wearing hiking boots, RT with water and a backpack presumably containing other supplies needed for their hike.

Not a walk on a paved trail in a neighborhood park that can require no preparation or supplies.

Minimizing the Thomas’s experience and interest in the desert and their preparation by acting like it was a walk in the park doesn’t convey the impact of the desert location on the hikers and the implication there of.

Maybe that preparation is why RT seems to think an abduction is likely as they had prepared even leaving a key hidden that would be useful in the event they were separated either knowingly or accidentally.


all imo





 
  • #955
Missing 411.

In my opinion, is a great read from a writer who is very creative at storytelling.

For me personally, I will stick to the version of search events from the actual SAR guys who were on some of the missions discussed in the books.

I do think DP's question is legit about tracking missing persons in our national parks. It would be a monumental task to put a database together (IMO). I do not however buy into a conspiracy or some of the conclusions he comes to. That's just me.

Proceed with caution when venturing outdoors.

In NY, the DEC Forest Rangers will stop hikers and chat with them sometimes about their hiking plans. I once heard one guy tell a Forest Ranger "if I go missing, that's what SAR is for". I winced and knew this guy was going to get a what-for, then an on-site education about being prepared. lol

I have a TREMENDOUS amount of respect for SAR. People would be truly amazed by their abilities, especially in wilderness areas. How about carrying an severely injured hiker down a mountain, in a snow storm, while giving them life saving medical treatment until they can be evacuated.

When the Incident Commander calls a mission, regardless of how many of them want to keep searching, it's a wrap until further notice. Their hearts are heavy for the unrecovered. A kick in the gut.



 
  • #956
LE & SAR, How Long to Search in Conditions Incompatible w Life?
@Chingaling said:
More than likely after the second day would be recovery
They would not stop the search just because they no longer believe she could be alive. Imo
Agree I think they searched until they were satisfied she wasn't there to be found.
@Chingaling. @MsBetsy Thanks for your posts, prompting me to think about ^ Q.
LE knew after Day X (3 - 4 - 5? whichever), if BT had been in desert for entire time in conditions RT reported re clothing, hydration, lack of any gear, equipment, etc, there was no chance of rescuing her alive. But LE & SAR continued as recovery mission, for Y Days (6 - 5 - 4 recovery days, for total of 9 search day). Why continue? Was it because ---
A. --- Presuming death, LE wanted to recover remains, for return to RT, and that was sole reason?
B. --- Possibly within first 3 - 4 - 5 days of searching, LE also had been investigating possibility of her disappearance being a result of a crime, like:
---------- 1. Random abduction by low-life(s) cruising Mojave for a vulnerable woman?
---------- 2. Planned abduction by person(s) thought she 'knew too much' about their business dealings or personal life/lives and wanted to silence her?
---------- 3. Planned abduction paid for by someone who wanted BT out of his/her/their life? Permanently.
---------- 4. Crime of violence against BT by the usual suspect(s).

C. -- Other reason(s)?

If answer is---
- B1, B2, or B3, Lady Luck must have been smiling on LE, enabling them to gather info about unknown person(s) so quickly.

- B4, it's easier to see LE could have amassed a lot of evidence about a few known persons expeditiously.
All jmo.
 
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  • #957
  • #958
LE & SAR, How Long to Search in Conditions Incompatible w Life?
@Chingaling said:
More than likely after the second day would be recovery


@Chingaling. @MsBetsy Thanks for your posts, prompting me to think about ^ Q.
LE knew after Day X (3 - 4 - 5? whichever), if BT had been in desert for entire time in conditions RT reported re clothing, hydration, lack of any gear, equipment, etc, there was no chance of rescuing her alive. But LE & SAR continued as recovery mission, for Y Days (6 - 5 - 4 recovery days, for total of 9 search day). Why continue? Was it because ---
A. --- Presuming death, LE wanted to recover remains, for return to RT, and that was sole reason?
B. --- Within first 3 - 4 - 5 days of searching, LE also had been investigating possibility of her disappearance being a result of a crime.
---------- 1. Random abduction by low-life(s) cruising Mojave for a vulnerable woman?
---------- 2. Planned abduction by person(s) thought she 'knew too much' about their business dealings or personal life/lives and wanted to silence her?
---------- 3. Planned abduction paid for by someone who wanted BT out of his/her/their life? Permanently.
---------- 4. Crime of violence against BT by the usual suspect(s).

C. -- Other reason(s)?

If answer is---
- B1, B2, or B3, Lady Luck must have been smiling on LE, enabling them to gather info about unknown person(s) so quickly.

- B4, it's easier to see LE could have amassed evidence about a few known persons expeditiously.
All jmo.
A and B4
 
  • #959
  • #960
There is so much unknown at this time, it's hard to continue to post. I will say that I've never seen a spouse or significant other react the way RT has in regards to the total silence from his end.

No searches, vigils, pleas, reward......nothing. I'm sure there are things going on that we are not privy to, but there is no way I would go radio silent if my darling hubs disappeared without a trace.

Trust me, I understand that people go missing on hikes all the time. What I can't understand here is that she was with a partner, was less than 440 yards from the RV (according to RT), walking in a direct, flat route, was healthy and an experienced hiker, and POOF, she just vanished into thin air leaving no trace behind.

Nope, the hinky meter just won't move from the red zone.

MOO

The silence and apparent apathy is stunning.

To say that it is unusual, is the understatement to end all understatements.
 
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