CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #11

[al66pine]

Can Abductor(s) Stay Undetected? Or Even Low Profile? Where?

....
IMO, the advantage of taking her to a location like the nearest airport or a city, is that they could hide out amongst a bunch of other people/places and not stick out, at the same time positioning themselves to move her further away from where she went missing....MOO

@Twistinginthewind sbm
pic from wiki Baker, CA. Per caption there, airport is just north of city. It's the nearly vertical line toward mid-top of pic.
Re Q above, I'm not putting any $ on abductor(s) using small airport in small town, Baker or other.
Someone (IDK if it was @Twistinginthewind ) said Baker was nearest/nearby airport.*Baker CA. pop. is 735, leaving little opportunity, imo
"to hide out amongst a bunch of other people/places and not stick out."
That ^ might require abductor(s) to take her further away and either to a very densely populated area or a different, very isolated area, imo.
--------------------------------------------
* Maybe a private plane arriving without her, then departing in plane w her & not filing flight plans?
Is that doable at airport owned by Dept of Int, BLM? Is there a way/place to file flight plans there? Even legal for a private plane to land?
"...has one runway ...with a 3,157 by 50 feet (962 by 15 m) asphalt surface. For the 12-month period ending February 16, 2006, the airport had 500 general aviation aircraft operations, an average of 42 per month." Baker Airport - Wikipedia. bbm

 

[MsBetsy]

Can Abductor(s) Stay Undetected? Or Even Low Profile? Where?
@Twistinginthewind sbm
pic from wiki Baker, CA. Per caption there, airport is just north of city. It's the nearly vertical line toward mid-top of pic.
Re Q above, I'm not putting any $ on abductor(s) using small airport in small town, Baker or other.
Someone (IDK if it was @Twistinginthewind ) said Baker was nearest/nearby airport.*Baker CA. pop. is 735, leaving little opportunity, imo
"to hide out amongst a bunch of other people/places and not stick out."
That ^ might require abductor(s) to take her further away and either to a very densely populated area or a different, very isolated area, imo.
--------------------------------------------
* Maybe a private plane arriving without her, then departing in plane w her & not filing flight plans?
Is that doable at airport owned by Dept of Int, BLM? Is there a way place to file flight plans there? Even legal for a private plane to land?
"...has one runway ...with a 3,157 by 50 feet (962 by 15 m) asphalt surface. For the 12-month period ending February 16, 2006, the airport had 500 general aviation aircraft operations, an average of 42 per month." Baker Airport - Wikipedia. bbm

Wouldn't LE be able to track flights in private planes? Would Air Traffic Control, or whatever it's called, keep all records of any flights? Imo

 

[muddlehead]

Here is the central problem with the idea that BT couldn't have gotten lost.

Every hiker starts their hike at a known location, the trailhead. From there they hike until they reach their destination and hike back, along a trail. Of course trails aren't generally paved, with signposts every few feet making sure you are on the trail. So you keep hiking along the path - and then, the path ends. But not where you are supposed to end up. Maybe you followed a game trail, maybe you followed a wash. In any case, you are now lost.

You don't figure this out within sight of the parking lot (otherwise you wouldn't be lost, you'd just make your way there.) You don't even figure it out within sight of the actual trail (otherwise you'd just turn around and walk 20 feet.) You figure this out long after you don't see the trail, long after the parking lot has vanished over the horizon. If that's the case, you're not really lost.

If you are lucky, you figure this out in time to at least retrace your steps - assuming you can, remember what you've been following for the last mile or two may not be easy to follow back, maybe there's another branch and you don't know whether to go north or east. Maybe it's getting dark and you didn't bring a flashlight with you.

So to say "well, BT would have seen the parking lot from the trail, or from a given location" isn't relevant because she obviously wasn't there, otherwise she wasn't lost.

So to state that BT couldn't have gotten lost is to effectively state that hikers in general cannot get lost.

Which is wrong. Hikers do get lost, thousands each year. They get lost in the forest, they get lost in the mountains, they get lost in the desert too.

Here is the central problem with your line of thinking.

Did RT, at any point, in RT's telling his story a day or two later, give you the impression that he, or his wife, were lost?

Didn't he say they went for a 2.2 mile hike and were within 1/4 mile of being back at the RV when she went ahead?

If there is a "lost" part of this equation, don't you think he, not posters on this website, would have brought it up a day or two later when he had time to ponder the events surrounding the disappearance?

 

[PaulR]

Did RT, at any point, in RT's telling his story a day or two later, give you the impression that he, or his wife, were lost?

How is this relevant? It doesn't matter if RT thinks his wife was lost or not. How would he know?

Didn't he say they went for a 2.2 mile hike and were within 1/4 mile of being back at the RV when she went ahead?

Unless he had a rangefinder with him for some reason, we don't know it was a 1/4 mile. RT believed it was. Police may have led him back to the scene and asked him where he was and measured the distance themselves, which would be more accurate, but we aren't sure.

If there is a "lost" part of this equation, don't you think he, not posters on this website, would have brought it up a day or two later when he had time to think about it?

How exactly would RT know if BT was lost or not? And I mean "lost", as opposed to being "hurt" (knowing where she was but unable to move, another common case for hikers), "kidnapped", etc.?

 

[al66pine]

Flight Plans?

Wouldn't LE be able to track flights in private planes? Would Air Traffic Control, or whatever it's called, keep all records of any flights? Imo

In US some pilots on some planes on some flights must file flight plans; others are not required to do so.
^There, above, the entire sum of my knowledge on the subject. n.e.k. (not exactly kidding)
{{ETA. My knowledge base just expanded, courtesy our buddy wiki but will leave it to the pro's to explain/interpret. Flight plan - Wikipedia }}

@MsBetsy Is your thinking -
if a plane was used in abducting/transporting BT,
- pilot would have been required to file flight plan(s), and
- LE could now check w local towers and/or FAA, and
- flight plan info, if filed, and if accurate, and
- would lead LE to pilots, and
- allow LE to zero in on suspect(s)/perp(s), and
- lead LE to BT, and/or
- eventually point LE to suspect(s)?
Or thinking something else?

Calling for @cazador and/or flying sleuthers, we need you to weigh in & enlighten us pls.
Flight plans, yes or no?
If no flight plans were filed, what other airport records/logs might reveal tail #'s/IDs of planes landing and departing in a given time frame (at airports/locations LE wants to inquire about, say, airports within a 100 - 200 -300 mile radius of the now-famous highway turnout)? Thx in adv.

 

[cazador]

Flight Plans?
In US some pilots on some planes on some flights must file flight plans; others are not required to do so.
^There, above, the entire sum of my knowledge on the subject. n.e.k. (not exactly kidding)
{{ETA. My knowledge base just expanded, courtesy our buddy wiki but will leave it to the pro's to explain/interpret. Flight plan - Wikipedia }}

@MsBetsy Is your thinking -
if a plane was used in abducting/transporting BT,
- pilot would have been required to file flight plan(s), and
- LE could now check w local towers and/or FAA, and
- flight plan info, if filed, and if accurate, and
- would lead LE to pilots, and
- allow LE to zero in on suspect(s)/perp(s), and
- lead LE to BT, and/or
- eventually point LE to suspect(s)?
Or thinking something else?

Calling for @cazador and/or flying sleuthers, we need you to weigh in & enlighten us pls.
Flight plans, yes or no?
If no flight plans were filed, what other airport records/logs might reveal tail #'s/IDs of planes landing and departing in a given time frame (at airports/locations LE wants to inquire about, say, airports within a 100 - 200 -300 mile radius of the now-famous highway turnout)? Thx in adv.

No flight plan required if they are VFR “visual flight rule“ A towered Airport requires that you communicate with them on the ground while you taxi and they clear you for take off and when approaching 10 miles out for a landing and you do identify yourself both with your aircraft number and type of aircraft are flying.. if you were flying IFR “instrument flight rule “ then you are required to file a flight plan...BUT if you were doing something illegal you’re going to use some runway in the middle of nowhere both for takeoff and for landing .

 

[Cherwell]

Did RT, at any point, in RT's telling his story a day or two later, give you the impression that he, or his wife, were lost?

He didn't get lost, so why would he give the impression that he did?

If there is a "lost" part of this equation, don't you think he, not posters on this website, would have brought it up a day or two later when he had time to ponder the events surrounding the disappearance?

I think he would have expected and hoped for her to be found within that time frame, preferably alive. When she wasn't found after two days, the chances of her survival were vanishingly small. It doesn't surprise me that he wouldn't want to face that truth, and would cling to another possibility.

 

[Hatfield]

Yes, his daughter stated that in an interview in the very beginning, but we haven't heard anything else since.
Even Barbara's son seemed to believe there was some kidnapping scheme related to a company that RT was involved in. This is probably why he stated that he wished RT would tell LE what he knows.

At one time the VI said that LE were following up on leads, and I suspect many of these leads were provided by her son. He did say that he was working closely with investigators.
Whether or not any information he provided was useful, we can't know, but I'm guessing it did not lead to anything substantial.
At any rate, other members of the family do seem to believe there was some sort of kidnapping, including RT himself.
The difference is that the family believes he may have been involved, or at least knows something about it.
Which is understandable since he himself was first to suggest it.

Imo

This may have been discussed a lot already so sorry if this has been hashed over but I dont know how I missed this part in the articles about another California hiker who was allegedly attacked by a knife wielding man while she was camping around the same time as BT went missing.

It sounds to me that a lot of kidnapping concerns amongst the players in BT's case got more possible when they heard news of this other California kidnapping attempt at a campground. It was 300 miles away but still. Scary stuff and I could see where it could influence relatives and others to think BT may also have been kidnapped.

This other story is scary how similar her situation was to BT before she ran into the person with the knife. Her and her partner were separated for a very short time while she tried to use the bathroom and she was then confronted by the stranger.

Im linking both the article that talks about how the other case may have influenced how the kidnapping concerns got increased and the 2nd link is an article about the other attempted kidnapping in a CA camping area around the same time.

"The notion that Barbara may have been abducted became public after a different hiker, Shirley Powell, who was missing for days in a different national park 300 miles away, was rescued. After being found, she described being chased by a knife-wielding man.

But sheriffs say it is unlikely the same man she described has gone after Barbara."

"When that information started coming out about [the other woman], that's what created the speculation [that Barbara had been abducted] but our investigation does not indicate any signs that she was abducted,' Miller said."

California police say missing hiker who vanished 'in her bikini' was NOT abducted | Daily Mail Online

Here is the link about the other case.

California woman who went missing on camping trip says she was fleeing attacker

 

[10ofRods]

.--

No flight plan required if they are VFR “visual flight rule“ A towered Airport requires that you communicate with them on the ground while you taxi and they clear you for take off and when approaching 10 miles out for a landing and you do identify yourself both with your aircraft number and type of aircraft are flying.. if you were flying IFR “instrument flight rule “ then you are required to file a flight plan...BUT if you were doing something illegal you’re going to use some runway in the middle of nowhere both for takeoff and for landing .

Of which there are more than one out there. Although I don't think it's relevant to this case, necessarily, it does help explain why the Mojave (and the Sonoran) deserts have the kinds of criminal activities that they do.

 

[MsBetsy]

Here is the central problem with your line of thinking.

Did RT, at any point, in RT's telling his story a day or two later, give you the impression that he, or his wife, were lost?

Didn't he say they went for a 2.2 mile hike and were within 1/4 mile of being back at the RV when she went ahead?

If there is a "lost" part of this equation, don't you think he, not posters on this website, would have brought it up a day or two later when he had time to ponder the events surrounding the disappearance?

RT was interviewed while they were still searching for Barbara. That was more than three months ago so we have no idea what he is thinking now.
He may have more information from LE now or a reason to believe she is no
longer alive or maybe he is still holding out hope. I doubt he thought she was lost at the time probably for the same reason anyone else wouldn't think she was lost. She was an experienced hiker.

People go through many emotions during a traumatic event and it was probably easier to believe she was kidnapped but still alive, rather than lost out in the desert where she couldn't possibly be alive for very long. He must have believed there was some chance she was still there since he apparently went back and searched everywhere for her.

The 1/4 mile distance was likely just an approximation as LE said they weren't sure how far away Barbara was from the RV when she disappeared.
They were about 1/4 mile away when she went around the corner, but he would have no idea where she went after that. He did say that she had to cross the road in order to get back, but as far as we or he knows, she may not have even made it to the road.

Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

This may have been discussed a lot already so sorry if this has been hashed over but I dont know how I missed this part in the articles about another California hiker who was allegedly attacked by a knife wielding man while she was camping around the same time as BT went missing.

It sounds to me that a lot of kidnapping concerns amongst the players in BT's case got more possible when they heard news of this other California kidnapping attempt at a campground. It was 300 miles away but still. Scary stuff and I could see where it could influence relatives and others to think BT may also have been kidnapped.

This other story is scary how similar her situation was to BT before she ran into the person with the knife. Her and her partner were separated for a very short time while she tried to use the bathroom and she was then confronted by the stranger.

Im linking both the article that talks about how the other case may have influenced how the kidnapping concerns got increased and the 2nd link is an article about the other attempted kidnapping in a CA camping area around the same time.

"The notion that Barbara may have been abducted became public after a different hiker, Shirley Powell, who was missing for days in a different national park 300 miles away, was rescued. After being found, she described being chased by a knife-wielding man.

But sheriffs say it is unlikely the same man she described has gone after Barbara."

"When that information started coming out about [the other woman], that's what created the speculation [that Barbara had been abducted] but our investigation does not indicate any signs that she was abducted,' Miller said."

California police say missing hiker who vanished 'in her bikini' was NOT abducted | Daily Mail Online

Here is the link about the other case.

California woman who went missing on camping trip says she was fleeing attacker

Yes, I think that story was a big part of the reason national news sources reported on the story and the notion that Barbara may have been kidnapped. It's easy to see why her family might have believed that's what happened.

After all, one of the first things people think when they hear a woman in a bikini seemingly vanished near a road is that she must have been abducted.

It's interesting that as soon as LE finished the search and reported there was no evidence of a kidnapping and they did not suspect foul play we never heard another word about the case.

Except for the local news which seemed to take a lot of time and work for the family to get an interview.

Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Flight Plans?
In US some pilots on some planes on some flights must file flight plans; others are not required to do so.
^There, above, the entire sum of my knowledge on the subject. n.e.k. (not exactly kidding)
{{ETA. My knowledge base just expanded, courtesy our buddy wiki but will leave it to the pro's to explain/interpret. Flight plan - Wikipedia }}

@MsBetsy Is your thinking -
if a plane was used in abducting/transporting BT,
- pilot would have been required to file flight plan(s), and
- LE could now check w local towers and/or FAA, and
- flight plan info, if filed, and if accurate, and
- would lead LE to pilots, and
- allow LE to zero in on suspect(s)/perp(s), and
- lead LE to BT, and/or
- eventually point LE to suspect(s)?
Or thinking something else?

Calling for @cazador and/or flying sleuthers, we need you to weigh in & enlighten us pls.
Flight plans, yes or no?
If no flight plans were filed, what other airport records/logs might reveal tail #'s/IDs of planes landing and departing in a given time frame (at airports/locations LE wants to inquire about, say, airports within a 100 - 200 -300 mile radius of the now-famous highway turnout)? Thx in adv.

Haha, I knew when I saw the words "Flight plans?" at the top of your post you were about to quote my post.
All I know is that I have been a passenger a few times in a small private plane taking off and landing at a very small airport (we were the only ones there) and the pilot had to communicate with someone in a tower or something. He had to wait until the light changed to be cleared to land. I wondered if they keep records.
Are there runways with no air traffic control?
I suppose so. Did RT use such a runway? Hard to say.
I'm not sure how common they are around there. Imo

 

[10ofRods]

Yes, there are runways with no air traffic control. I don't have the info with me, but I posted the GPS coordinates of the closest one to Kelbaker road about 3 weeks ago.

There are completely deserted runways that some pilots still use (one of course has to use vision to land and take off). Maybe some are private? I don't know. I just used to know someone who used such strips occasionally.

 

[Chingaling]

Have you been out there? My claim is that there are TWO trails (at least) from which she could have seen the RV (intermittently, as the Wser said - who went out there since this case started). We don't know that they were really ¼ of a mile from the RV - people are notoriously bad at guessing time and distance.

There are two trails that intersect on the way back from the boulder formation. One of those has another intersection further on, two others head to the road - one is a short distance to the road, the other is a long distance to the road.

We do not know if Barbara was suffering from heat exhaustion. I have had it (and know several other people who have had it too, have talked to or interviewed several heat stroke survivors). The symptoms are very hard to detect, especially for the sufferer.

There is no way that the RV would be visible from all the various trails and there's no way of knowing which trail Barbara would have taken (both of the ones that lead to the road would have had the RV visible intermittently; I'll be going out there in a month or two to take a video, but I'm quite certain that the opposite side of Kelbaker (where the parking lot is) is not visible (even with a tall RV) from every single point along both of those branching trails. @Sroads mentions that the RV-sized trailer that LE had was visible most but not all of the time. If for any reason, Barbara took a true wrong turn at that intersection, and briefly headed in the wrong direction (assuming no heat exhaustion at all), when coming back to correct her mistake, she had two choices (and I'm betting that the RV was not visible from either of those trails because I've studied a topo map and the trail intersection is at a low point in the area, that's why there is way more foliage there).

In the desert, you can tell where the lower areas are by observing evidence of water flow and by observing evidence of plant life. You can see it on Google map, but that RV would certainly have been visible from the trail they initially took part of the time. I'll bet an entire box of donuts or bagels that it was not visible from the 4 way intersection of two trails.

Further, if Barbara could not find the key and was serious about using the restroom, she might have headed in yet another direction because, although many people are okay peeing right in full view of traffic, many of us are not, especially not in her age group (which is also my age group). It isn't just age. My daughters would seek cover and so would ever man in our family as well. Peeing at the side of the road is not something any friend I have would do either.

So she could have crossed back over the road to head for some trees near the wash or she could have walked up HH and then into the less cholla-filled area that's there.

We don't know. I will not stop considering that she could be lost out there. Especially if she had started into heat exhaustion. People do not just suddenly collapse from heat exhaustion, it's usually an hours-long process and has stages.

I had a heat stroke in Sept of 2015.It was pretty much immediate.From the time I told myself I was too hot and sitting down to grab a small fan to cool down,then nothing.I remember nothing.Until my husband found me stretched out with that fan with no front on it laying on my chest.I was out,and wouldn't have been here today if he hadn't slapped me in the face repeatedly.I woke up but couldn't move and was vomiting.I had nothing.It took husband and grandson an hour to get me in the house.I couldn't and didn't move from 6pm til 3am. It was a really bad experience,and one I hope to never experience again.I do not push myself in the heat.I don't even go outside once it reaches a certain temperture

 

[CSIDreamer]

LBM

Re. the bolded : That's a valid speculation; if she fell into a confined space.
And just hasn't been discovered yet.
Sad as that would be; it's preferable to someone harming her intentionally.


LBM

Agreed.

The VI says LE feel they have confirmation she was def. out there somewhere in the desert location that day, and that the VI says there's photographic evidence ; which he hasn't been shown.
The public want to see those photos, or at least one of them; but LE don't have to reveal everything to us, regardless if it's a missing person's case or a different scenario.
And some like to keep their private lives private. No problem with that.

LE themselves haven't made it clear to the public that that was the last place she was seen.
Although their thorough search in the Kelbaker area and surrounding would indicate they consider the photo they were shown to be valid.

Also the kennel sighting may or may not be important to LE ; Imo.


LBM

There's different ways of looking at this, so not totally disagreeing.
I enjoy reading your posts, @MsBetsy !
Just pondering other scenarios.

When the VI's sister was told that she went missing around noon when the emergency call was made; and later LE claimed the call came in at 3:36pm., some would consider that a change of a story.
But could've been nothing more than miscommunication from either the VI' sister or RT himself . Nothing wrong there ; just a slight change.

But this is a possibility .. what if the 911 call location was in error ?
So the call could've come in at any time and was misunderstood ?
That the operator was at fault and simply forgot to log in the correct time ; it must happen sometimes.
That poor lady who drowned in her car and her 911 call was grossly mishandled --what if that happened to RT ?
Not impossible-- as I've never heard such a callous performance as the 911 operator who answered the drowning woman's frantic pleas.
MOO

I am *guessing* the emergency management center is fully automated. I would imagine the call times are electronically logged.

 

[cazador]

In my past we used Vacant Roads to land our planes on.

 

[Chingaling]

I have been missing Chihuahua's posts.Maybe it's me,but I haven't noticed any posts for a while.Anybody know what happened to them?

 

[Chingaling]

I'm wondering if she went into hiding with RT's help.This case reminds of of someone faking their death.I have seen cases where someone embezzled money from their companies and faked their own deaths and disappear to Belize or Costa Rica or the RIO. MOO

 

[cazador]

I had a heat stroke in Sept of 2015.It was pretty much immediate.From the time I told myself I was too hot and sitting down to grab a small fan to cool down,then nothing.I remember nothing.Until my husband found me stretched out with that fan with no front on it laying on my chest.I was out,and wouldn't have been here today if he hadn't slapped me in the face repeatedly.I woke up but couldn't move and was vomiting.I had nothing.It took husband and grandson an hour to get me in the house.I couldn't and didn't move from 6pm til 3am. It was a really bad experience,and one I hope to never experience again.I do not push myself in the heat.I don't even go outside once it reaches a certain temperture

Thank You ... This was my first thought for Barbara

 

[Sladell]

Private planes do not have to file a flight plan. Unless it’s a major airport, there would be no record of a private plane coming in or leaving from the airport. If there’s a control tower, there would be a record because of air traffic control but there’s a lot of small airports without control towers.
Also log books can be falsified since the pilot is the individual entering the info. All that matters is that the hours on the plane match the log book hours. Unless there’s someone who knows otherwise, there’s no way to catch a false entry.