CA - Christopher Dorner kills 4 in tri-county rampage, Feb 2013 - #3

[Voice4theSilent]

Starry Night, I am a huge supporter of LE, have always been. That said, I have some real concerns about how this was handled, specifically the lack of any attempted negotiation and the rapidity of turning to an all out attack. Most of this concern began when LAPD surrounded and fired upon two women delivering newspapers in a truck resembling Dorner's. In all honesty, at least to me, there is no acceptable excuse LAPD can provide that makes this incident (with those two women) even palatable. However, I see it as a mindset that screams LE was never going to give Dorner a chance. JMO - that is not acceptable.

I realize Dorner's anger and threats were directed at LE, I realize he murdered LE family members and LE officers. But I find myself asking - why does that justify the outcome to this manhunt and would this rapidity of action be imposed if someone just murdered an "everyday" citizen.

Just a few points and questions....
1.) How do you know there was "the lack of any attempted negotiation?"
2.) "LAPD surrounded and fired upon two women delivering newspapers in a truck resembling Dorner's. " Completely inaccurate statement.
3.) "LE was never going to give Dorner a chance." Seriously? I think, more accurately, since he ambushed and attacked all of his victims that Dorner didn't give LE a chance!
4.) The outcome of the manhunt was that no one was injured due to the way that LE handled the situation yesterday. The outcome of the manhunt was that this monster is off the streets where he can no longer harm anyone. The outcome of the manhunt was that Dorner killed himself. Works for me!
5.) And, yes, the rapidity of action would have been imposed if this monster had shot a random individual in Corona, then driven to Riverside and ambushed two random citizens in their car, etc.

I take great offense that you would minimize the murder of 4 individuals because you don't think that it was justified for LE to pin down a murderer after he barricaded himself in a building and refused to come out?

As a California resident of the area in which Dorner terrorized I am EXTREMELY happy with the way that LE and first responders dealt with this monster. I am EXTREMELY proud of ALL of LE and their actions. And I am EXTREMELY happy with the "outcome to this manhunt."

 

[bookboarder]

I think his manifesto clearly tells a much bigger picture. Have you read it? I don't think there is any justification for killing innocent people or for killing period beyond war or self protection, but I think Dorner was mentally ill and that gestated over many years, it wasn't as simple as losing one job.

Yes, I did read the manifesto. No matter what words he put together for this, nothing justifies the murder of innocents. Was he mentally ill? Perhaps, depression can be completely devestating. In his mind, I believe he thought he was depressed and obsessed over these moments where his job was put on the line. However, it's no excuse for this carnage. I have a mental illness [I am bipolar which is predominately shown in depression in my case]].. It is well-controlled with medication but it is still something I wrestle with on many days. I still believe his manifesto is all but irrelevant.

He was a loose cannon and a liability-- he painted that picture of himself when he aggressively attacked [according to HIS manifesto] and started strangling a coworker because he heard the coworker use a racist term. I'm sorry but no matter what someone calls me, a) I am not going to retaliate by strangling/choking someone [and no, he didn't get called the name, he admitted it was something he overheard and was regarding someone else. b) LEOs face people in mentally trying ways every day. It doesn't justify his aggressive overreaction.

I don't care how depressed he was, personally. You don't get a free pass to attack LE, their innocent family members becaues you have depression or any other mental illness.

 

[gramcracker]

At that point he had already shot 2 officers and started an extended fire fight. He made the choice of not wanting to be taken alive, not the LEO. They could not allow the firefight to continue, further LE lives to be lost, and night to fall so that he had the opportunity to escape. It was all Dorner's choice on whether he was taken alive or dead. The thought of saying that LE had the opportunity to take him alive yesterday and they did wrong by not doing so is so far from reality is almost laughable if it wasn't so sad.

since hindsight reveals that for days he was staying less than 1000 feet from where this started, the fact that the neighborhood searches consisted of entering only those cabins where someone answered the door ... that is so far from what was required and so far from reality that it is almost laughable if it wasn't so sad

what could have been done differently? I don't know, off the top of my head, take locksmiths along and have them pick the locks. or teach LE how to pick locks. if you encounter gunfire while you're working at getting inside at least you know you're at the right house

 

[jjenny]

since hindsight reveals that for days he was staying less than 1000 feet from where this started, the fact that the neighborhood searches consisted of entering only those cabins where someone answered the door ... that is so far from what was required and so far from reality that it is almost laughable if it wasn't so sad

what could have been done differently? I don't know, off the top of my head, take locksmiths along and have them pick the locks. or teach LE how to pick locks. if you encounter gunfire while you're working at getting inside at least you know you're at the right house

They should have gotten dogs. I think dogs would be able to smell whether someone is in the cabin.
I am surprised dogs weren't able to track him down, considering how close he was to where his truck broke down.

 

[Lois Lane]

The San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department said Wednesday that the deputy who was killed during a shootout with a man, believed to be murder suspect Christopher Dorner, was a detective out of the SBSD’s Yucaipa office, KNX 1070 reported.

Authorities have yet to release his name, but sources have told KNX that the man recently became a father.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/02/13/knx-slain-san-bernardino-deputy-a-yucaipa-detective/

 

[Lois Lane]

Faced with regular barrages of gunfire, officers confronting suspected killer Christopher Dorner lobbed incendiary tear gas into the cabin where Dorner allegedly was holed up, said law enforcement officials with knowledge of the situation.

Hoping to end the standoff, law enforcement authorities first lobbed "traditional" tear gas into the cabin. When that did not work, they opted to use CS gas canisters, which are known in law enforcement parlance as incendiary tear gas. These canisters have significantly more chance of starting a fire. This gas can cause humans to have burning eyes and start to feel as if they are being starved for oxygen. It is often used to drive barricaded individuals out.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...-highly-incendiary-hot-gas-used-on-cabin.html

 

[CountryGirl]

At 2am I could get from Riverside (over in the Arlington area of the shootings) to Torrance in an hour EASY. I don't know if I follow where you were going with that though?

Haven't read the whole thread yet -- but it was never established he was in Torrance. He came up from San Diego (probably on I-15 N) and ended up in Big Bear.

 

[deoneta]

Yes, I did read the manifesto. No matter what words he put together for this, nothing justifies the murder of innocents. Was he mentally ill? Perhaps, depression can be completely devestating. In his mind, I believe he thought he was depressed and obsessed over these moments where his job was put on the line. However, it's no excuse for this carnage. I have a mental illness [I am bipolar which is predominately shown in depression in my case]].. It is well-controlled with medication but it is still something I wrestle with on many days. I still believe his manifesto is all but irrelevant.

He was a loose cannon and a liability-- he painted that picture of himself when he aggressively attacked [according to HIS manifesto] and started strangling a coworker because he heard the coworker use a racist term. I'm sorry but no matter what someone calls me, a) I am not going to retaliate by strangling/choking someone [and no, he didn't get called the name, he admitted it was something he overheard and was regarding someone else. b) LEOs face people in mentally trying ways every day. It doesn't justify his aggressive overreaction.

I don't care how depressed he was, personally. You don't get a free pass to attack LE, their innocent family members becaues you have depression or any other mental illness.

I agree that his manifesto is irrelevant. His manifesto was not rooted in reality and was simply an attempt to blame others for his own failings. He characterizes himself as a victim of racism yet the first two people he murders are Asian and African-American. Just how many people would he have to have murdered before it became apparent to everyone that he wasn't going to surrender peacefully? He was no victim. He was a narcissistic spree killer. All MOO

 

[Trident]

I am quite shocked at what was recorded!

FBI guy Tom Fuentes on CNN is saying what was said on the video is not what trained SWAT teams should be saying. He is quite confused and can't explain why an officer would be yelling that. They should be poised and disciplined.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po9EaU7ZjxI&feature=youtu.be

Did anyone stop to think this, "burn the mother*****" mentality may be the reason, or one of them, that situations like this one happen? I haved no respect for whomever yelled that out - none.

 

[LinasK]

They ripped the side of the cabin off, so somebody is going to be upset. They all heard a shot so somebody was inside. I think that because the family wasn't notified the media had to all retract their stories. This is becoming a regular occurrence with the media. They use to wait for the facts before reporting the story. Now they just report hearsay.

Surprisingly the son of the owner of the cabin was interviewed, and said they weren't upset, it was just property.

 

[jjenny]

Surprising the son of the owner of the cabin was interviewed, and said they weren't upset, it was just property.

Wonderful attitude. So unlike that of many people nowdays.

 

[mister happy]

I haven't finished reading all the posts yet (still on page 18), but I had to post up...

<modsnip> I understand what MsF is saying...she is not saying that it's all right in any sense of the word; she's saying that it's both interesting and fascinating that Dorner focused so specifically on LE and LE families that he did NOT hurt others at all, even when it would have helped his escape. Both carjacking victim and hostages were NOT hurt; and both instances, if I were to think like a criminal and wanton murderer, would have helped Dorner escape had he killed them (I mean the cleaning ladies and the other carjack victim).

MsF., I completely understand your position. And I also agree - it's very interesting, and very intruiging...Dorner's rage was narrow-focused, and his target selection was quite particular.

Doesn't make him a hero or a good guy or anything nice at all...but it's a completely fascinating aspect to this whole thing. I suspect he will be studied and "dissected" for a long time to understand how he was able to compartmentalized and focused his rage and murderous rampage, and did not hurt others even though it would have benefited him in many ways.

<modsnip>.

Best-
Herding Cats

The fact that Dorner focused on LE and their families is not all that fascinating to me. The guy had a huge ego, thinking he was Rambo Robin Hood. But he was basically disgruntled worker who acted out in a sinister manner. The easy ambush of Monica and Keith showed his true punk character. Yes, Dorner was a nut-case, but not a fascinating nut-case. I'm sure he wanted the public to believe he was super special.

 

[Voice4theSilent]

Haven't read the whole thread yet -- but it was never established he was in Torrance. He came up from San Diego (probably on I-15 N) and ended up in Big Bear.

Yes, that is correct. My post was in response to another which stated they didn't see why the police officers involved in shooting at the newspaper delivery person's vehicle and ramming the surfer's vehicle would have believed Dorner could have even been in the Torrance area around 5am after fleeing Riverside close to 2am. I was stating that it would have been extremely easy to drive from Riverside to Torrance in a three hour period at 2am.

 

[time]

Yes, I did read the manifesto. No matter what words he put together for this, nothing justifies the murder of innocents. Was he mentally ill? Perhaps, depression can be completely devestating. In his mind, I believe he thought he was depressed and obsessed over these moments where his job was put on the line. However, it's no excuse for this carnage. I have a mental illness [I am bipolar which is predominately shown in depression in my case]].. It is well-controlled with medication but it is still something I wrestle with on many days. I still believe his manifesto is all but irrelevant.

He was a loose cannon and a liability-- he painted that picture of himself when he aggressively attacked [according to HIS manifesto] and started strangling a coworker because he heard the coworker use a racist term. I'm sorry but no matter what someone calls me, a) I am not going to retaliate by strangling/choking someone [and no, he didn't get called the name, he admitted it was something he overheard and was regarding someone else. b) LEOs face people in mentally trying ways every day. It doesn't justify his aggressive overreaction.

I don't care how depressed he was, personally. You don't get a free pass to attack LE, their innocent family members becaues you have depression or any other mental illness.

Good grief, no one is saying he should get a free pass. :banghead:

And, the original claim was that he did this because he lost A job. I was responding to that... which I felt was an uninformed claim.

And, no one is saying that all mental illness is the same or that people with one are going to commit murder.

 

[Corvid]

Thank goodness Dorner chose to drive a Nissan Titan, otherwise we would still not no where he is and he would still be on his crazy rampage.
mo

 

[time]

No problem. Here is an example, just a talking head saying that SWAT was being unprofessional.

I saw that and it was what I was commenting on all along... and, again, I think for a lot of us, it's not about the cussing!!! :waitasec:

 

[LinasK]

Hi all,

I'm trying to get caught up this morning after watching some of the coverage on CNN last night. I see there are still conflicting reports on whether or not a body was found inside the cabin. Anything official yet? I realize it may take a while to ID the charred body.

Hoping and praying it is Dorner and the nightmare for all those effected is over. My heart goes out to the victims and their families.

I know a lot of people are on edge in California and this will be a huge relief if it is him.

I don't care what happened in his past. Nobody has the right to take another person's life. He's a cold blooded murderer.

They found his driver's license in the ruins. Doubt it was JY stealing his identity. It's him, IMO, and they are just in CYA mode until they can officially identify him.:twocents:
I think the "premature" news leaks stating they found his body were so that people can finally relax. It just isn't official until the compare his DNA.

 

[gramcracker]

Just a few points and questions....
1.) How do you know there was "the lack of any attempted negotiation?"
2.) "LAPD surrounded and fired upon two women delivering newspapers in a truck resembling Dorner's. " Completely inaccurate statement.
3.) "LE was never going to give Dorner a chance." Seriously? I think, more accurately, since he ambushed and attacked all of his victims that Dorner didn't give LE a chance!
4.) The outcome of the manhunt was that no one was injured due to the way that LE handled the situation yesterday. The outcome of the manhunt was that this monster is off the streets where he can no longer harm anyone. The outcome of the manhunt was that Dorner killed himself. Works for me!
5.) And, yes, the rapidity of action would have been imposed if this monster had shot a random individual in Corona, then driven to Riverside and ambushed two random citizens in their car, etc.

I take great offense that you would minimize the murder of 4 individuals because you don't think that it was justified for LE to pin down a murderer after he barricaded himself in a building and refused to come out?

As a California resident of the area in which Dorner terrorized I am EXTREMELY happy with the way that LE and first responders dealt with this monster. I am EXTREMELY proud of ALL of LE and their actions. And I am EXTREMELY happy with the "outcome to this manhunt."

re your bold, the outcome of the poorly-managed-from-the-beginning manhunt resulted in another officer losing his life yesterday. he was somone's son, brother, husband, father, friend. another officer will no doubt have a long and complicated recovery from his physical and emotional wounds

I find it very hard to believe that it is not Law Enforcement 101 to clear the immediate area. they did not come even close to clearing the immediate area. each residence where he didn't step onto a porch or show his face at a window was cleared

this IMO is not the fault of those in the field going door-to-door but rather the fault of those in charge who were deciding protocols/priorities

if you look at 1200 Club View Dr on google maps, you'll see that it is about 500 feet from the command center, on the very same street. and about 1000 feet from where he burned the truck. that is not an opinion, it is a fact which needs to be examined

don't we all learn more from our mistakes than from our successes? Human Nature 101, hopefully

I'm extremely glad/grateful that it's over, that there won't be the cost of a long incarceration and trial. my observations are that it could have been over much sooner w/o incurring the costs of all the resources and overtime, one LEO killed and another wounded

 

[LinasK]

I don't believe a woman aged 47 is considered an old lady, but her mother is, of course pretty old. Hopefully, medical bills will be paid, another vehicle, and lost wages, but a lawsuit allowing a person to never have to work again? Will that happen with the younger woman and surfer? Surely not.

I sure hope not!!! Old is always 20 years older than you. When I was in Kindergarten I thought my teacher was old- she was 30,:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[21merc7]

I saw that and it was what I was commenting on all along... and, again, I think for a lot of us, it's not about the cussing!!! :waitasec:

Got to take the entire post in and work with the wording. They were under attack, being fired at. Whatever was said, regardless how crass or disrespectful (being shot at with intent to kill is equally as disrespectful), is moot when taken in context.