CA - Christopher Dorner kills 4 in tri-county rampage, Feb 2013 - #3

[Gardenlady]

I follow the news and I can't produce any stories right now, but there is an increased number of attacks on LE in this country.
It's a mindset.

I'm not buying it, but let's assume it's true for the sake of argument. How then does my wish for LE and justice to be carried out in a rational, fair, unbiased and dispassionate manner point to, or illustrate, violence against LE?

I'm against violence on ALL sides. Society is not well served by either criminals committing violence, or LE committing it.

 

[Gardenlady]

:floorlaugh:

And I feel guilty laughing in this tragic situation.

Again, I ask, is there no middle ground between burning a human being to death in a cabin, and sitting around talking politely?

 

[danzn16]

Because wishing to burn the cabin, with a human being inside it, shows a wish to kill, rather than simply take the suspect into custody. It is not LEs job to serve justice. That is up to the courts.

Because wishing to jump to burning the cabin, rather than using other, less dangerous means of ensuring the safety of both the suspect and the public, gives the impression that LE is going beyond merely enforcing the law, and into the realm of revenge.

Burning a building does not show wish to kill. They told him to surrender. He did not. Burning a building would force someone to have to come out and possibly surrender if that is there choice. It has been done before. It is not intent to kill. And reports are saying Dorner started the fire from every media source I have seen.

Drastic measures had to be taken to get him to surrender and end the situation because night fall was coming where he would have have much greater chances to escape. What he decided to do with his life was Dorner's choice. LE could not risk a mass murders escape.

 

[believe09]

I get your point completely Gardenlady and I support it. But this is the case of a rogue ex cop with military training who decided to take down as many members of LE and their families as he had the heart for.

It is a thread about violence. It is a thread about what had to be done to stop his violence. Dorner drove the bus. He could have stopped before he started, he could have turned himself in, he could have successfully gone to Mexico.

He didnt. He murdered more people instead. He didnt want a peaceful resolution. It was suicide by cop.

 

[Gardenlady]

Erroneous report by media. Like that they had found his body before the cabin had even stopped burning. LE states he never came out of the cabin

Have a link? I'm seeing differing stories on this. Maybe one of the big networks close to events?

 

[Thorn]

"burn it down" doesn't sound like something you'd hear from an angry mob? Ive heard people in near riots shout the same thing, but I would guess no one would defend it in that context. I wouldn't.

If an order was given to deliberately burn that cabin, knowing a human being was inside it, that is scary to me. As is what sounds like an attitude of vengeance from LE yelling those phrases. I do not fault anyone for losing their cool, but a higher standard must be upheld, and if it is not then we as citizens need to know why, and how to prevent it from happening again.

Seriously? It not like Dorner was sitting in the cabin knitting a freaking scarf! He was SHOOTING at the responding officers!!! I believe "higher standards" go out the window when LE finds themselves in a ACTIVE SHOOTER situation. What would you have liked to see them do? :banghead:

 

[believe09]

I find it slightly unrealistic and more than idealistic to believe that the folks who were being fired on should have been calm cool and collected when threatened with imminent danger.

jmvho.

 

[Gardenlady]

I get your point completely Gardenlady and I support it. But this is the case of a rogue ex cop with military training who decided to take down as many members of LE and their families as he had the heart for.

It is a thread about violence. It is a thread about what had to be done to stop his violence. Dorner drove the bus. He could have stopped before he started, he could have turned himself in, he could have successfully gone to Mexico.

He didnt. He murdered more people instead. He didnt want a peaceful resolution. It was suicide by cop.

I totally agree, but I guess wherer I differ is that I would hope LE wouldnt seemingly oblige his wish for suicide so easily. Do we know if they did indeed to try to gas him or stun him out? I don't know what typical procedure is for say, a swat team going in when someone is holed up. But I can't see where deliberately burning a building down, if that is what happened (as hinted at by the video) would ever be proper procedure. I'd hope that everything possible would be done first to minimize the loss of human life, the perpetrator's included.

I think I will bow out for a bit here, all. Thanks for the discussion, and hope to be back later. :wave:

 

[danzn16]

With all due respect to those questioning LE use of force to end this manhunt, and the actions that were taken/emotions that were displayed; I feel that you are all missing the HUGE contributing factor as to why LE responded the way they did. They were UNDER FIRE and being confronted by an ACTIVE SHOOTER!!! When cornered Dorner DID NOT come out of the cabin with his hands up to surrender, the was SHOOTING at them!! He had just MURDERED yet another officer and critically injured yet another officer, and because of his actions it was clear that his desire was to ADD even more officers to his body count! I for one am glad that the responding officers took steps to ensure that he did not have that opportunity.
That being said, I respect that different people have different life experience to draw from. However, I would hazard a guess that many of you questioning the actions of LE would not respond to being SHOT at by a man that has already MURDERED four innocent citizens by standing by and not defending yourselves. IMO, anyone who claims that restraint was needed by LE in this situation is full of horse pucky and needs a HUGE reality check. Do officers have to abide by the law, absolutely and they did, self defense is legal.
Mods if I have overstepped my bounds, please feel free to delete all or part of this post. TIA

Best post of the month.

 

[Starry Night]

I'm not buying it, but let's assume it's true for the sake of argument. How then does my wish for LE and justice to be carried out in a rational, fair, unbiased and dispassionate manner point to, or illustrate, violence against LE?

I'm against violence on ALL sides. Society is not well served by either criminals committing violence, or LE committing it.

I don't doubt your wish-I just think you are unfairly criticizing how LE handled this situation, and that reflects on what I see in the news as a trend against LE.
There are no easy answers. For you or for me...........

 

[believe09]

Again, I ask, is there no middle ground between burning a human being to death in a cabin, and sitting around talking politely?

He wasnt burned to death. If it was Dorner, he was killed with a gun shot.

I am starting to feel like :banghead: as well. He had been in the area for quite some time. It is realistic to believe that he had traps set or was simply laying in wait until first responders attempted to enter the cabin or for them to try and put out the fire.

In fact, imo, they had no reason to believe that he was NOT doing those things. Because he promised he would and he fufilled those promises. And he decided not to surrender.

I am not advocating for his death-I understand it and I believe he took his own life, fwiw, but I can be proved wrong I am sure. He was a coward-he was running. His grand plan was disintegrating. Like most murderers, he didnt really have a plan B.

Again, jmvho.

 

[danzn16]

I follow the news and I can't produce any stories right now, but there is an increased number of attacks on LE in this country.
It's a mindset.

If poster wants an example pull up any media article about Dorner and see what things are being said about cops. Congratulating the "cop killer" wishing we would have taken out more etc. and this was happening before the Dorner incident

 

[Voice4theSilent]

The single shot heard from inside the cabin was after the fire had started.

https://archive.org/details/DornerStandoff2

It is my opinion that he started a fire in the cabin prior to LE putting gas into the building.

 

[Voice4theSilent]

Because wishing to burn the cabin, with a human being inside it, shows a wish to kill, rather than simply take the suspect into custody. It is not LEs job to serve justice. That is up to the courts.

Because wishing to jump to burning the cabin, rather than using other, less dangerous means of ensuring the safety of both the suspect and the public, gives the impression that LE is going beyond merely enforcing the law, and into the realm of revenge.

When LE made the decision to burn the building it wasn't a rush decision and it was after other means were tried and failed. The suspect had three options at that point, flee the building, die of asphyxiation or kill himself. He chose one of those options, we just don't know if it was option #2 or option #3. If someone is free to exit a burning building and refuses it isn't anyone else's fault if they die, especially if LE was acting within their right and protocol.

If someone is free to exit a building, is being told to exit the building, has been given over an hour to exit the building yet chooses to remain in the building as it goes up in flames they have NO ONE to blame but themselves.

The public was NEVER in any danger as a result of the burn.

What LE did wasn't out of revenge it was their job. To state that they are dangerous for doing their job isn't right. If you don't like their tactics perhaps you should focus your attention on trying to change their right to do that instead of criticizing them for doing their job within their protocol and their scope of authority.

 

[shadowraiths]

When LE made the decision to burn the building

Imo, we do not know for a fact, that they started the fire. All we have is scanner chatter and people's interpretation, thereof.

 

[Lois Lane]

It is my opinion that he started a fire in the cabin prior to LE putting gas into the building.

I don't have an opinion, yet, as to how the fire started.

Waiting to see additional information.

 

[Sonya610]

Specifically, in Dorner's situation, I find it truly fascinating that he did not hurt his hostages, or the guy he carjacked...when they posed a significant risk of capture, and indeed did cause the shootout with their reports...but they were unharmed (physically...).

See, for me, I think this *is* fascinating. If Dorner were targeting just anyone, those three would've been killed just so he could get away. But Dorner had compartmentalized his focus, and held himself to only murdering those who were connected to his specific situation and no one else.

I don't think it is that fascinating. Dorner was trying to portray himself as the "good guy" that was victimized, that was the point of his manifesto etc....

When he was stuck in Big Bear he probably knew the game was over, at that point he was just delaying the end. Instead of killing the hostages why not let them live and further prove his point that he is a "good guy"?

It really isn't that unusual, even big name serial killers (Richard Ramirez, Bobby Joe Long, etc...) have been known to spare some victims just because they feel like it, it doesn't mean they are "basically good hearted guys" it was just how they felt at that time.

 

[Voice4theSilent]

no, I said they cannot behave as if they are hit squads. Their job is law enforcement. Not revenge. This is a critical thing for a society that wishes to live within the rule of law. I'm not sure why this is some kind of objectionable statement.

Btw can you please answer my question to you I posted aways back, about increasing attacks on LE?

I guess I am confused as to how LE attempting, within the rule of law, to apprehend a suspect is considered "revenge" :waitasec:

 

[mister happy]

Mr. Happy...lemme say, first, that I understand your position. Then again, you need to take into consideration where you're posting - a crime site. And just so you're aware, I think Ted Bundy was fascinating; same thing with Dahmer. And on and on. I am intrigued and find fascinating some of the more "famous" killers, and some of the not-so-famous ones, too.

Specifically, in Dorner's situation, I find it truly fascinating that he did not hurt his hostages, or the guy he carjacked...when they posed a significant risk of capture, and indeed did cause the shootout with their reports...but they were unharmed (physically...).

See, for me, I think this *is* fascinating. If Dorner were targeting just anyone, those three would've been killed just so he could get away. But Dorner had compartmentalized his focus, and held himself to only murdering those who were connected to his specific situation and no one else.

I said that early on in the situation that I didn't feel the threat from him (or from LAPD, frankly), as I was not a target, and could not be construed as a target. I'd figured out early on his target were those in uniform or family of those in uniform, and not me or my type (I believe I said middle aged, middle weight suburbanites). I was chastised then, too...but having lived through a few serial killers in this area, and being part of their victim profile...well...it's just not the same.

Bear in mind, I'm not holding him out as a hero, a dark knight, a Robin Hood...he was an evil, vile murderer who deserved no less than what he got - an ignominious end to an horrific reign of terror.

That doesn't make him less fascinating...he has an interesting criminal mind ala Bundy, Dahmer, et al, and to me, that's interesting. It's all right that you don't find him interesting or fascinating...I freely admit that I have odd interests; but that's all right.

We can agree to disagree...I have my interests, and I find this case to be really interesting (and similar to the Unibomber, too). I believe there is a lot to be learned from him, regarding mental health, and response to pressure/sequelae to MI. You don't have to agree.

But in no way do I, or anyone I've read here recently, hold that Dorner was any sort of hero, or "anti-hero". Not at all, not even in the slightest.

Best-
Herding Cats

I understand your opinion Herding Cats. But for me, even though Dorner caused a national sensation, I didn't find his mindset to be particularly fascinating. He knew the jig was up from the start, and wanted to be viewed essentially as a good guy. Dorner was an egomaniac trying to write his own narrative. A stupid punk who didn't live up to his grandiose self-hype. I'm definitely more intrigued with the other criminals you mentioned.

BTW, one ex-cop who I do find fascinating is Stephanie Larzarus, the LAPD dectective who murdered a love rival and kept it secret for decades. Can't wait for the book to come out.

 

[Starry Night]

Imo, we do not know for a fact, that they started the fire. All we have is scanner chatter and people's interpretation, thereof.

Yes, I agree, and if we can just take that part out of Voices post, then we have the perfect post lol. Thanks for the clarification shadow.