CA CA - Claire Hough, 14, La Jolla, 23 August 1984

[otto]

Just watched the 48 Hours program and remembered there were thread(s) here for these cases. Interestingly enough I was in San Diego at the time of both of these murders, spent time at Torrey Pines, and never heard of either of these cases. They weren't widely publicized in the news...
I'm not buying the wife's denial, nor the co-workers claims of lab corruption- I think they're covering for Kevin Brown. DNA doesn't "fly" through the air like his lawyers are suggesting. His semen was inside her, he admitted to knowing a girl named Claire, and he took nude photos of women. (Same M.O. as William Richard Bradford) I think the other guy Tatro may have been an accomplice he met on the beach. Torrey Pines is very close to UCSD. I think both Brown and Tatro are guilty, at least in Claire's case.

And Power posting doesn't convince anyone.

The fact that both girls had sand in their mouths, and were identically mutilated, certainly suggests that the two cases were connected, yet the conclusion is that they were not connected. Does that mean that the second girl was an imitation murder committed by the criminalist?

We must not forget that in the case of Meredith Kercher, the argument that freed Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito is that DNA does indeed fly, and tertiary transfer of DNA is common. The possibility of flying DNA is strongly argued by US scientists who believed that the couple are innocent.

 

[LinasK]

The fact that both girls had sand in their mouths, and were identically mutilated, certainly suggests that the two cases were connected, yet the conclusion is that they were not connected. Does that mean that the second girl was an imitation murder committed by the criminalist?

We must not forget that in the case of Meredith Kercher, the argument that freed Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito is that DNA does indeed fly, and tertiary transfer of DNA is common. The possibility of flying DNA is strongly argued by US scientists who believed that the couple are innocent.

Sorry, that argument doesn't convince me. :snooty:I've always thought Amanda participated in Meredith's murder, and still do. I don't think Rudy Guede acted alone. I see her as another Casey Anthony, guilty but unconvicted. But this is the wrong thread for that!

 

[otto]

Sorry, that argument doesn't convince me. :snooty:I've always thought Amanda participated in Meredith's murder, and still do. I don't think Rudy Guede acted alone. I see her as another Casey Anthony, guilty but unconvicted. But this is the wrong thread for that!

That's the problem with arguing that DNA can fly in one situation, and acknowledging how absurd it is in another situation. I was concerned when I read that US scientists were arguing the high probability of flying DNA and tertiary DNA, as those arguments, once made, pretty much negate the validity of DNA evidence as a forensic tool.

It is not surprising that we see the same arguments made here - that the criminalists semen was brought to the lab for testing purposes, and that it flew through the air onto the swabs that were taken from Claire Hough. If flying DNA can happen in Italy in 2007, presumably it can happen in California in the 1980s - but I don't believe it either.

The criminalist very likely murdered Claire Hough, as he would have had knowledge about the circumstances of the first murder - including details about sand in her mouth and mutilation. His interest in and young women frames him as a likely perp.

 

[LinasK]

Just watched the 48 Hours program and remembered there were thread(s) here for these cases. Interestingly enough I was in San Diego at the time of both of these murders, spent time at Torrey Pines, and never heard of either of these cases. They weren't widely publicized in the news...
I'm not buying the wife's denial, nor the co-workers claims of lab corruption- I think they're covering for Kevin Brown. DNA doesn't "fly" through the air like his lawyers are suggesting. His semen was inside her, he admitted to knowing a girl named Claire, and he took nude photos of women. (Same M.O. as William Richard Bradford) I think the other guy Tatro may have been an accomplice he met on the beach. Torrey Pines is very close to UCSD. I think both Brown and Tatro are guilty, at least in Claire's case.

And Power posting doesn't convince anyone.

I also meant to add that I don't think Mrs. Brown knew her husband very well, another reason I think she's in deep denial. The murders happened long before he met her, and she minimized his other activities like going to strip clubs and photographing nude women, as if all men do those kinds of things!!! That is NOT normal. And also his nickname at work was Kinky. He fits the profile of the kind of guy that would mutilate a woman. I hope she loses her suit. I see it as vindictive. An innocent man wouldn't commit suicide, he would fight to clear his name!!!
One more comment- just because police don't know where it happened does NOT exclude that Brown could've met Tatro in a strip club or on the beach. Either are highly likely. There was a case of a doctor who hired this **** to kill his ex, who was dating another doctor. Noone believed the doctor (ex) had anything in common with the hit man, but they did have common interests.

 

[otto]

I also meant to add that I don't think Mrs. Brown knew her husband very well, another reason I think she's in deep denial. The murders happened long before he met her, and she minimized his other activities like going to strip clubs and photographing nude women, as if all men do those kinds of things!!! That is NOT normal. And also his nickname at work was Kinky. He fits the profile of the kind of guy that would mutilate a woman. I hope she loses her suit. I see it as vindictive. An innocent man wouldn't commit suicide, he would fight to clear his name!!!

I would tend to agree. Finding his semen in Claire Hough is a strong indication that he raped her. It was very likely just a matter of time until he would be arrested, so he chose suicide over prison. That he cannot be connected to the murder of Barbara, but knew about the circumstances of her murder through his work, makes him a likely person for imitating Barbara's murder with the hope of confusing investigators.

 

[LinasK]

That's the problem with arguing that DNA can fly in one situation, and acknowledging how absurd it is in another situation. I was concerned when I read that US scientists were arguing the high probability of flying DNA and tertiary DNA, as those arguments, once made, pretty much negate the validity of DNA evidence as a forensic tool.

It is not surprising that we see the same arguments made here - that the criminalists semen was brought to the lab for testing purposes, and that it flew through the air onto the swabs that were taken from Claire Hough. If flying DNA can happen in Italy in 2007, presumably it can happen in California in the 1980s - but I don't believe it either.

The criminalist very likely murdered Claire Hough, as he would have had knowledge about the circumstances of the first murder - including details about sand in her mouth and mutilation. His interest in and young women frames him as a likely perp.

Okay, thought you were arguing for Amanda's innocence.:facepalm: The big problem with paid experts is that they are hired guns. Although unethical, many will sell their testimony to the highest bidder and tailor it to whichever side is paying them. For that reason I no longer respect Cyril Wecht, Michael Baden, Perper, or Lee (can't remember their first names).

 

[LinasK]

I would tend to agree. Finding his semen in Claire Hough is a strong indication that he raped her. It was very likely just a matter of time until he would be arrested, so he chose suicide over prison. That he cannot be connected to the murder of Barbara, but knew about the circumstances of her murder through his work, makes him a likely person for imitating Barbara's murder with the hope of confusing investigators.

Agreed, although it seemed to be the same M.O., it was most likely a copycat killing.

 

[otto]

Okay, thought you were arguing for Amanda's innocence.:facepalm: The big problem with paid experts is that they are hired guns. Although unethical, many will sell their testimony to the highest bidder and tailor it to whichever side is paying them. For that reason I no longer respect Cyril Wecht, Perper, or Lee (can't remember their first names).

Not I! One of the experts who initiated doubt in the validity of DNA evidence is part of the Innocence Project. Attorneys who want to refute DNA evidence should subpoena that expert, as well as one from NC, in every case where DNA evidence is presented as proof of guilt.

I don't find it surprising that US attorneys are now using the same flying DNA argument.

The person responsible for Barbara's murder is still an unknown. Given the violence of the murder, it's surprising that no DNA evidence is available.

 

[kemo]

The most significant evidence brought forwards by the 48 hour documentary was the interview with the two former co-workers of Brown who believed that his seamen had been used as a " standard" and that seamen had somehow contaminated a q-tip that was used in the autopsy.

The presence of only minuscule amounts of sperm and Acid phosphate test that indicate no trace of seminal fluid is strong evidence that Hough was not raped and makes a strong argument for contamination as the source of the DNA. It can not absolutely rule Brown out as a perpetrator of this crime but I think it is most probable that he is innocent and it is unlikely that charges would ever have been filed.

Brown's probable innocents is irrelevant in the widow's lawsuit however. That will come down to the specifics of how the investigation was handled. The court date isn't scheduled until next year. There is still time for a settlement.

I am not absolutely sold on Tatro's guilt because of the differences between this case (excessive trauma center for without rape) and his known crimes (rape without excessive trauma) and the fact that this case is so similar to the Nantais case that he could not have been involved in. What is not clear is whether or not there was any opportunity for Tatro's body fluids to have contaminated the Hough evidence. He attempted abducting a girl in 1985 but apparently she escaped without being raped. Some reports say his DNA came from sperm, others say blood. If the SD crime lab had no reason to handle biological evidence from Tatro's, his involvement in the crime would be the only explanation. This would also establish that the two crimes were committed by different perps.

Some posters have suggested that The Hough killing may have been a deliberate "copy cat" of Nantais. I doubt this. Six years is a real long time and there would have been plenty of similar cases more recent. Neither Tatro nor Brown lived in SD at the time of the Nantais attack but Brown might have known of it. It seems to me that had Brown been so devious to stage a sex crime to look like one that occurred 6 years earlier, he would have been smart enough not to do it with a low life convicted rapist like Tatro. Realistically, can anyone think of a single case of a "tag team" mutilation sex murder?

Wheeler, the old guy who discovered Hough's body, was creepy and probably mentally ill but apparently stood up to interrogation and was ruled out. It is unclear how much of a POI he really was. He was in his 60's which is pretty old to get started in this sort of thing but with mental illness, you never know. Hough's parents were definitely concerned about him.

It is interesting but probably just a coincidence that all three suspects in this case apparently committed suicide.

 

[LinasK]

The most significant evidence brought forwards by the 48 hour documentary was the interview with the two former co-workers of Brown who believed that his seamen had been used as a " standard" and that seamen had somehow contaminated a q-tip that was used in the autopsy.

The presence of only minuscule amounts of sperm and Acid phosphate test that indicate no trace of seminal fluid is strong evidence that Hough was not raped and makes a strong argument for contamination as the source of the DNA. It can not absolutely rule Brown out as a perpetrator of this crime but I think it is most probable that he is innocent and it is unlikely that charges would ever have been filed.

Brown's probable innocents is irrelevant in the widow's lawsuit however. That will come down to the specifics of how the investigation was handled. The court date isn't scheduled until next year. There is still time for a settlement.

I am not absolutely sold on Tatro's guilt because of the differences between this case (excessive trauma center for without rape) and his known crimes (rape without excessive trauma) and the fact that this case is so similar to the Nantais case that he could not have been involved in. What is not clear is whether or not there was any opportunity for Tatro's body fluids to have contaminated the Hough evidence. He attempted abducting a girl in 1985 but apparently she escaped without being raped. Some reports say his DNA came from sperm, others say blood. If the SD crime lab had no reason to handle biological evidence from Tatro's, his involvement in the crime would be the only explanation. This would also establish that the two crimes were committed by different perps.

Some posters have suggested that The Hough killing may have been a deliberate "copy cat" of Nantais. I doubt this. Six years is a real long time and there would have been plenty of similar cases more recent. Neither Tatro nor Brown lived in SD at the time of the Nantais attack but Brown might have known of it. It seems to me that had Brown been so devious to stage a sex crime to look like one that occurred 6 years earlier, he would have been smart enough not to do it with a low life convicted rapist like Tatro. Realistically, can anyone think of a single case of a "tag team" mutilation sex murder?

Wheeler, the old guy who discovered Hough's body, was creepy and probably mentally ill but apparently stood up to interrogation and was ruled out. It is unclear how much of a POI he really was. He was in his 60's which is pretty old to get started in this sort of thing but with mental illness, you never know. Hough's parents were definitely concerned about him.

It is interesting but probably just a coincidence that all three suspects in this case apparently committed suicide.

After watching the show, I didn't believe Wheeler was involved at all, just a crazy who wanted to insert himself into the case. He didn't even have the details right. Not sure I believe the lab co-workers about using their own sperm as control samples. If true, they all ought to be fired, how unprofessional!!!
There was a murder tag-team operating in L.A. in the late 70's- the Hillside Strangler, was really two cousins Angelo Bueno and Kenneth Bianchi. Can't recall if they mutilated their victims or not.
With Tatro I thought maybe he was the one doing the rock bashing, which would explain his blood on Claire's jeans, but the semen had to be the result of Brown raping her.

 

[CheckYourProof]

In the matter of the 'Kevin Brown Betrayal':

It was suggested in post #36 that evidence against Kevin Brown was manufactured.

CheckYourProof:
"The police claim that Brown said something incriminating could be manufactured evidence. If police dig hard enough they will find something seemingly suspicious about anyone. 'Jailhouse snitch' types can come out of the woodwork. Some of the police claims can fit into this category."

What was not known at the time was who did it. Since then evidence has come out in news reports that SDPD police detectives embedded lies in search warrants in their pursuit of Kevin Brown (post #77).

There is another story told by SDPD that could fit this category. That is the claim that a fellow lab employee saw Kevin Brown coming out of a store with fly unzipped. Seems almost too convenient. The reporters have not confirmed that this is true. One would have to be pretty close to notice the fly. And what would the other employee have been doing in front of the store?

<modsnip>

One has to be able to wade through the misinformation that has been put out by SDPD. Some will go for it hook line and sinker. Some of these cops get in the habit of lying for a living. Remember the cop who testified to bogus facts on the stand in San Jose (post #64)? Remember the cop who lied about a fingerprint match in Texas (post #64)? It's apparently quite common - legal too. There is another story out just this week, where not only the police but the crime lab appear to have been overeager to implicate a suspect - and apparently got the wrong guy (Leslie Merritt Jr). At least the case fell apart when it turned out that the matches of the person's handgun were not really matches. The reporters say that "ballistics experts" got it wrong. By the way, those guys are firearms examiners, not "ballistics experts".

There was also a lie involved, told by the police, wouldn't you know it (2).

"The interrogation went on for more than two hours, culminating with the detective telling him that ballistics experts had matched his handgun to four of the 11 shootings and they had him on video pulling the trigger. The latter was a lie. The former would eventually be the undoing of it all."

Here is another quote from the same reference:
"There was a public thirst for blood," [defense attorney Jason] Lamm said, "a public thirst for accountability, and that thirst was quenched by the arrest of Leslie Merritt Jr."

Ever since even before the Salem Witch trials, and continuing through today, where females are stoned to death for being victims of crimes in some parts of the world (3), it seems there is always someone out for blood. Or, as Kirk Bloodsworth (who was exonerated by DNA of a crime of murder) put it, "they just wanted someone for it" (4).

The issue of employees donating semen standards was covered by the two retired San Diego Criminalists in the 48 Hours show (post #78):

-------------------------------------------------------
"You can still have cross contamination of semen because they had to have fresh samples of semen in the San Diego lab," said [attorney ]Von Helms.

At the time of Claire Hough's murder, criminalists would often bring their own seminal fluid to the lab and use it to ensure the chemicals used to detect semen were working correctly. Durina and Stam believe that all the criminalists in the lab did it.

"I think Kevin was doing that same thing," said Durina.

The San Diego Police Department, however, insists that contamination was not possible. But the retired criminalists know what they saw.

"Most likely, Kevin's semen standard was in that lab and several analysts may have even had it. It may have been even used on that particular --on Miss Hough's case," Durina explained.

"We didn't switch gloves back then, either," Stam explained. "So let's say the analyst took Kevin's semen sample, wearin' the same gloves and then handled the deep vaginal swab ... there's a logical explanation for the contamination."
-------------------------------------------------------

(Note that SDPD is still insisting to 48 Hours that DNA contamination was not possible)
(Note that it is not just plausible but logical that contamination could have happened)

What's more, the cases with the contamination from the semen standard in Georgia were referenced right here in this thread (post #66). We have references showing that this was done this way in the 1980's up through modern times. Information about this can also be found in a manual posted online by a crime lab in Arkansas (http://www.crimelab.arkansas.gov/Websites/arcrimelab/images/Documents/SER-DOC-01.pdf).

<modsnip>

There are a couple more points that should perhaps be pointed out to the fledgling sleuths here, not all of whom will be aware of this. The first point is that Kevin Brown did not know what the case against him was, because the search warrant affidavit used to search his house was sealed. He must have felt like he was boxing with shadows. His death brought out the facts of how this investigation was conducted. Sure he could have lived, but he must have felt that he could not face being labeled as a rapist and murderer. Just as Cameron Todd Willingham felt that he could not live with the shame of pleading guilty to killing his 3 daughters in a fire falsely claimed to be arson, getting him off death row, so that he could continue to eek out a miserable existence in jail until he could get his pardon, denied to him by Texas governor Rick Perry.

The second point is that when a search warrant affidavit is filled out, it is the same as sworn testimony, under penalty of perjury. It is an affidavit. A publication from the Alameda County District Attorney's Office explains this (5).It appears that SDPD detective Lambert is guilty of a crime, that he lied about the facts of the case to get his warrant approved. The judge must feel snookered! San Diego city attorneys are not charging the crime, and Lambert can always claim it was simply due to incompetence, like the San Jose detective. Anyway, San Diego city attorneys have not been doing their job. There is a scandal there too (6).


(1)
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/when-dna-snares-innocent
Forensics gone wrong: When DNA snares the innocent
By Douglas Starr
Mar. 7, 2016 , 10:00 AM

(2)
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tests-lead-phoenix-freeway-shooting-cases-undoing-38798472
New Tests Lead to Phoenix Freeway Shooting Case's Undoing
By brian skoloff and terry tang, associated press
PHOENIX &#8212; May 1, 2016, 11:34 AM ET

(3)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/12/theobserver
Zafran Bibi was raped, but a Pakistan judge decided it was adultery - now this young mother will be stoned to death
Observer Worldview
Saturday 11 May 2002 20.03 EDT

(4)
Kirk Bloodsworth commenting on how he got collared (even sentenced to death at one point) for crime he did not commit.
No internet reference for this one.
Personal recollection of how Kirk put it, recalled by CheckYourProof.

(5)
http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/pov_spring_2011.pdf
POINT of VIEW
A publication of the Alameda County District Attorney's Office
Nancy E. O'Malley, District Attorney
In this issue
SPRING
2011
Search Warrants

3 See Code Civ. Proc. § 2003
[&#8220;An affidavit is a written declaration under oath, made without notice to the adverse party.&#8221;].

(6)
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/apr/20/ca-da-statute/
City attorney probe finds 98 cases bungled
2 prosecutors departed after internal review involving domestic violence files
By Greg Moran and Joshua Emerson Smith | 5:30 p.m. April 20, 2016

 

[CheckYourProof]

In the matter of the 'Kevin Brown Betrayal':

CBS News has another story out:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dna-results-stun-in-california-beach-cold-case/

DNA results stun in Calif. beach cold case

By Cindy Cesare CBS News May 2, 2016, 8:00 AM

Cindy Cesare is a "48 Hours" producer. Here, she reflects on covering the haunting 1978 and 1984 cold case murders of Barbara Nantais and Claire Hough.

A recent DNA hit in Hough's case yielded an unexpected result, but is the evidence reliable? The "48 Hours" investigation into the case"Blood in the Sand," aired Saturday, April 30 on CBS.

 

[CheckYourProof]

In the matter of the 'Kevin Brown Betrayal':

Some further commentary on posts since the 48 Hours show by those new to this thread:

Some points I agree with.

LinusK points out that some well known forensic scientists who are highly paid to come up with an opinion in high profile cases may have a financial conflict of interest (post #86). But this has not come up in the San Diego cases. It is expected that is Rebecca's civil suit goes to trial there will be consultants.

It is possible that the Hough crime was a copycat to the earlier similar crime, as LinusK thinks (post #87). But kemo doubts this (post #89).

kemo:
"Six years is a real long time and there would have been plenty of similar cases more recent."

The fact that many people who lived in the area were not familiar with the Nantais crime due to it not being advertised, or extensively discussed in such a forum as this at the time, argues against it. LinusK himself admits that he never heard of either of these cases although he lived not just in the area but in San Diego at the very time of the crimes. This must have been covered in the TV and print news. If you are out of town you could miss it.

LinusK post (79):
"Interestingly enough I was in San Diego at the time of both of these murders, spent time at Torrey Pines, and never heard of either of these cases."

Since Tatro likely killed Claire Hough it could have been a copycat crime. But if people who lived in the area at the time of the crimes never heard of them (including LinusK in post #79), then Tatro, who was elsewhere at the time of the Nantais crime, may have never heard of it. So kemo may be right in thinking that the similarity could be random chance. Even the police wavered on that, thinking the crimes were connected, until they didn't. If the crimes were connected, there was obviously no copycat.

Some of the recent posts contain information that I have not seen, and there are no references to support the claims.

I do not recall seeing claims of corruption in the SDPD crime lab. There are references to corruption in SDPD but not the crime lab in previous posts here.

LinusK in post #79:
"I'm not buying the wife's denial, nor the co-workers claims of lab corruption- I think they're covering for Kevin Brown."

Flying DNA is refered to by way of expressing skepticism that DNA contamination is possible. DNA is usually contained in cells; cells can fly through the air; DNA can fly. It is this easy to refute the claims that DNA cannot fly in:
Post #81 #83 #88

There are numerous examples of DNA contamination posted here previously, with references. Some of these include cases of DNA contamination from a crime lab semen standard.

It is possible for DNA to fly through the air when coughing, sneezing, or talking. It is possible for DNA from semen to fly through the air. If the semen standard were handled next to case slides or evidence, tiny unseen flakes from the standard can fall off and land on the evidence, causing contamination. This can and does happen, and when it does, the DNA flew through the air.

The two former SDPD criminalists offer another explanation for how this could have happened. They stated on the 48 Hours show that in those days they did not change gloves. So in handling a lab semen standard and then handling evidence without changing gloves, it is possible for contamination to happen. Scissors can also transfer sperm cells and DNA from the lab semen standard to evidence, and this has already been covered in previous posts here (post #66).

The Arkansas crime lab manual reference in post #91 (from the state crime laboratory) also refers to the use of these semen standards by crime labs:

----------------------------------------------------------
"SEMEN STANDARD FOR VERIFICATION OF ACCURACY OF DETECTION TESTS,REAGENTS, AND
TECHNIQUES
A. Dried semen standards used to verify the accuracy of detection tests, reagents, and
techniques will be assigned a unique laboratory lot number given as SEM-YY##, whereas
SEM indicates a semen standard, YY indicates the year, and ## indicates the number of
semen standard prepared in that year. For example, the first semen standard prepared in the
year 2012 would be given the unique laboratory lot number of SEM-1201. Document in
logbook with the case number of the sample.
B. There will be one semen standard verified for use per calendar year. This standard will be
divided into three portions to supply each laboratory area in the section with adequate
sample. When necessary, additional standard(s) may be verified throughout the year if the
original standard fails to maintain compliance.
C. The source of the standard will be documented in the Reagent Logbook. However, if the
standard is collected from an individual and that person wishes to remain anonymous or is
unknown, a general designation of the source may be used instead."
----------------------------------------------------------

There has now been posted here information on the use of these semen standards by crime labs from two former criminalists with SDPD crime lab (from the 48 Hours show), from the Georgia state lab (post #66), and the Arkansas state lab. If you still doubt this you could do your own leg work. Go ask someone at your local crime lab.

kemo looked into it and had this to say (post #70):
I have learned that in the 1980's, it was standard practice to use a "standard" in many forensic test to verify that the test was accurate. This would presumably include sperm.

Skeptisicm was expressed that these standards are used (LinusK in post #90):
"Not sure I believe the lab co-workers about using their own sperm as control samples. If true, they all ought to be fired, how unprofessional!!!"

The fact is that crime labs that are accredited have to follow rules to get and keep the accreditation. One source of information of recommended techniques is www.swgdam.org which is the site for:
Scientific Working Group on DNA Analysis Methods (SWGDAM)

If forensic scientists at these accredited labs did not follow the proper rules and procedures they could very well be fired.

Not all crime labs have accreditations, and not all are required to obtain it. But there is a trend in that direction and the O. J. Simpson case was an impetus for that. There will be a further impetus for that, from Justice News from the United State Department of Justice.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-new-accreditation-policies-advance-forensic-science

Monday, December 7, 2015

Justice Department Announces New Accreditation Policies to Advance Forensic Science

"Deputy Attorney General Sally Quillian Yates announced today that the Justice Department will, within the next five years, require department-run forensic labs to obtain and maintain accreditation and require all department prosecutors to use accredited labs to process forensic evidence when practicable. Additionally, the department has decided to use its grant funding mechanisms to encourage other labs around the country to pursue accreditation."

There is quite a demand for the work that these forensic scientists do. There have been news stories recently from around the United States about many thousands of rape kits not getting tested. This has resulted in more funding getting sent to these labs to get the work done. I am not aware of any news stories where any complaints are made when these kits are tested, or about how they were tested, or whether crime lab semen standards were used, or where such standards came from, or how they were collected, or who donated them.

The 2009 report by the National Academy of Sciences was critical of the state of forensic sciences in the United States, but did not include any critisicm of the use of semen standards by crime labs:

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/228091.pdf

Strengthening Forensic Science in the United States: A Path Forward

This has probably settled the issue of the semen standards. If not, then go ahead and post your objections, and the reasons for them, for further discussion.

 

[CheckYourProof]

It appears there are two new votes, both guilty for Kevin Brown:
Post #83, #85 by otto Vote B (mentions Brown only as killer)
Post #79 by LinusK Vote A (mentions Brown and Tatro both as killers)

VOTE COUNT
Vote count is now:
1 A (Brown and Tatro both are the killers)
1 B (Brown as killer)
3 C (Tatro guilty and Brown innocent)
2 F (undecided).
see post #18 for explanation

At this rate there would have been no unanimous guilty verdict in a jury trial if Kevin Brown had been charged with the crime. This reinforces the point that there was no real case against Kevin Brown.

It appears that the new posters to the thread are not totally familiar with the case. Watching a single 48 Hours show does not fill in all of the information. The new posters can read the research posted on the previous posts here (dismissed as "Power posting" by LinusK in post #79) and change their vote if they want to.
"And Power posting doesn't convince anyone."

There is more follow-up below to some of the recent posts here.

Did anyone find the comment by otto (post #83) to be odd, that a young man interested in young women would be a likely perp?
"His interest in and young women frames him as a likely perp."

The logic that LinusK uses in arguing for the guilt of Kevin Brown is weak. From post #79:
"His semen was inside her, he admitted to knowing a girl named Claire, and he took nude photos of women."

The 48 Hours show (from video screenshot) indicates that even SDPD detectives appeared to acknowledge that the "Claire" involved:
"...does not appear to be the same girl..."

By the logic applied by LinusK in post # 84, LinusK himself is a likely suspect in the Claire Hough crime. LinusK states that Brown is incriminated because he could have met Tatro in a strip club or on the beach:
"One more comment- just because police don't know where it happened does NOT exclude that Brown could've met Tatro in a strip club or on the beach. Either are highly likely."

Just to show how flimsy the logic that claims of the guilt of Kevin Brown are based on, it is just as true that LinusK could have met Tatro on the beach, since he lived there at the time and acknowledges that he has been to that beach, thus also placing himself at the scene of the crime (LinusK in post #79):
"Interestingly enough I was in San Diego at the time of both of these murders, spent time at Torrey Pines, and never heard of either of these cases."

Just to show how weak the logic is in arguments for Kevin Brown's guilt, let's analyze the profiling done in post #84 by LinusK:
"And also his nickname at work was Kinky. He fits the profile of the kind of guy that would mutilate a woman."

There has been no references posted or evidence produced here to demonstrate that someone with a name or nickname of "Kinky" is a vicious killer. The posts by LinusK are not consistent with the well-thought-out comments of an FBI profiler like (former profiler) John Douglas.

The case of the "murder tag-team" of "the Hillside Strangler" case brought up in post #90 by LinusK does not seem relevant here except to show that in such cases investigators have no trouble showing that the killers knew each other and were associates.

The Amanda Knox case brought up by otto in post #81 does have some parallels with the situation involving Kevin Brown. There was a known killer (Rudy Guede) who was convicted in Italy. There is a known suspect (Tatro) with a criminal record in San Diego. The only forensic evidence was a DNA match of questionable value (post #91 reference #1). The verdict against Amanda Knox was overturned, and Kevin Brown was never charged and never would have been charged. It seems more likely that this case would be referred to by someone arguing for Kevin Brown's innocence. In both cases, they got the guy that did it, but they also want someone else for it.

Once again the suicide of Kevin Brown is taken as evidence of guilt, this time by otto in post #85:
"It was very likely just a matter of time until he would be arrested, so he chose suicide over prison."

and LinusK in post#84:
"An innocent man wouldn't commit suicide, he would fight to clear his name!!!"

This issue has already come up here (post #22). It is a fact that innocent people who have committed no crime, whether accused of a crime or not, do commit suicide. So the statement as made by LinusK is simply false. To illustrate this, consider farmers in India. This can be a very trying occupation there, because of drought among other reasons.

From Wikipedia "Farmers' suicides in India"
"Farmer suicides account for 11.2% of all suicides in India."

Quote from the Los Angeles Times:
----------------------------
http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-india-water-20160505-story.html
This is how serious India's drought has gotten
By Parth M.N. and Shashank BengaliContact Reporter
May 6, 2016
"They hail from a village more than 300 miles west of Mumbai, in a farming region where some 350 farmers have committed suicide this year due to the impact of one of the worst droughts in years."
----------------------------

Consider also that a lack of toilets in India is a factor in rape cases:
----------------------------
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rose-george/open-defecation-india_b_7898834.html
Open Defecation in India Leads to Rape and Disease. Now, Women Are Demanding Toilets.
07/30/2015 09:26 am ET | Updated Oct 21, 2015
----------------------------

There are rapes happening, and 350 farmers killed themselves. Is LinusK going to take this as evidence that the 350 farmers are all guilty of the crime of rape? Ridiculous!

The issue of what is "normal" behavior was raised by LinusK in post #84:
"The murders happened long before he met her, and she minimized his other activities like going to strip clubs and photographing nude women, as if all men do those kinds of things!!! That is NOT normal."

Here is a quote from Wikipedia (accessed today):
"Normality (behavior)"
"Definitions of normality vary by person, time, place, and situation – it changes along with changing societal standards and norms."

A definition of what is normal will vary also by culture. It was considered normal in head-hunting cultures to hunt people, cut off their heads, and in one culture also shrink them. Eating the brains might also be included and this could cause a prion disease called kuru that was "endemic to tribal regions of Papua New Guinea" according to Wikipedia. Standards can change. Today New Guineans have embraced the modern era and learned to be airline pilots among other things.

In some cultures it is considered normal that women do not vote, drive, work, and must be mostly or completed covered when going out.

It certainly seems like small potatoes to take someone's picture as compared to making them go around covered with a burka or cutting off someone's head. Perhaps someone who is an expert in psychology could add some commentary on whether it is considered normal in the United States to go into a strip joint or a Hooters restaurant. Define "normal" while you're at it.

It is not considered normal or "professional" (LinusK in post #90) for a criminalist to donate a semen standard to the crime lab. Is what goes on in IVF clinics to be outlawed? If someone were to go and protest and picket at an IVF clinic, protesting the use of donated semen in IVF procedures, they might be considered by some to be abnormal. Why would you be concerned about this? But some are (evangelicals?):

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-M...e-Right-to-Life-Activists-Protest-IVF-Clinic/
"Some oppose using donor eggs or donor sperm or surrogates to conceive."

SDPD does not require proof or real evidence to accuse one of the city's own criminalists of a heinous crime. The claim that LinusK made (post #90) that Kevin Brown should have been fired for simply coming to work and doing his job appears to have been based on supposition about how testing is done in crime labs and not any real knowledge of crime lab procedures.

There are also two other videos associated with the recent 48 Hours show.

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/notebook-dna-evidence-is-not-always-infallible/
Notebook: DNA evidence is not always infallible
APRIL 28, 2016, 12:37 PM|DNA is the gold standard for many cold case investigators - but what happens if police get it wrong? Correspondent Richard Schlesinger discusses the grave consequences. For more, watch "Blood in the Sand" an all-new "48 Hours" airing Saturday, April 30 at 10 p.m. ET/PT on CBS.

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/widow-shares-memories-of-kevin-brown/
Widow shares memories of Kevin Brown
APRIL 30, 2016, 10:55 PM|Rebecca Brown shares the contents of a shadow box she complied [sic] of her husband's most prized belongings. The former criminalist took his own life after being investigated by the San Diego Police Department for the 1984 murder of Claire Hough. Rebecca believes in her husband's innocence and has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the city.

Rebecca and Kevin Brown were married over 20 years. Most couples who are married over 20 years know each other very well. There is no evidence in the 48 Hours show or the "Widow shares memories of Kevin Brown" video to support the theory put forward by LinusK in post #84 that Rebecca did not know her husband very well:
"I also meant to add that I don't think Mrs. Brown knew her husband very well, another reason I think she's in deep denial."

Each piece of so-called evidence against Kevin Brown has two interpretations. For each piece, one has to go out of the way to assume that it is evidence of guilt. But in this case there is not even any evidence that Rebecca did not know Kevin Brown well. Quite to the contrary according to the 48 Hours show and the "Widow shares memories of Kevin Brown" video.

For at least several of the statments made or cited by SDPD, it is even disputed that the statement was made. That is the case with the claim that:

1) the lab director said that DNA contamination is not possible
2) the medical examiner said that there was acid phosphatase present on a vaginal swab at a level consistent with the presence of semen
3) Kevin Brown told someone that he had photographed a girl on the beach who later turned up dead

There is a new claim made by SDPD in the 48 Hours show:

"They didn't tell him where or how they found it. And the police maintained that it was Kevin who first mentioned the possibility of it being found on a vaginal swab," said Vlahos.

Do they have this on tape? But let's assume for the sake of argument that this is true and Kevin said it. Is this really incriminating? Consider an alternate interpretation.

A professional, whether it be a doctor, engineer, test pilot, scientist, or forensic scientist is extremely familiar with the subject matter of their profession. They will see things almost instantly that the layman will not, even if they stare at it for hours. Kevin Brown put in about 25 years at crime labs. He would have known that police, even detectives, are not knowledgeable about all of the nuances involved in the work that goes on in a crime lab. If he were told by police that he was a suspect due to a DNA match, he might wonder why that would be, when contamination is always assumed. After all it is called a DNA Employee Elimination Database. He could have made the leap instantly and come to the conclusion that the contamination might have involved a vaginal swab, and that would explain the extremely unusual situation where he is a suspect in the crime! Reportedly he was a man without guile, and he then asked the police if the match was to a vaginal swab, without thinking that just the fact of asking the question would also be incriminating to police.

 

[CheckYourProof]

In the matter of the 'Kevin Brown Betrayal':

In this post the idea brought up by me in Post #91 will be further developed:
"Just as Cameron Todd Willingham felt that he could not live with the shame of pleading guilty to killing his 3 daughters in a fire falsely claimed to be arson, getting him off death row, so that he could continue to eek out a miserable existence in jail until he could get his pardon, denied to him by Texas governor Rick Perry."

There are variations of a philosophical question, called the trolley problem in a recent news article (1):
"One issue that may never be resolved involves the moral component of driving decisions. This is often illustrated through the 'trolley problem.' In one of the almost infinite variations, a runaway trolley is about to hit and kill a group of bystanders who can only be saved by steering the trolley into a wall, which would kill all its occupants. What if the bystanders or the occupants are children?"

Another variation of the problem is that a train is heading toward a group of 5 people on a bridge. They cannot escape from the bridge and will be run over. You are in a position to be able to throw a switch so that the train goes down a different line toward a bridge with one person on it. Do you throw the switch so that only one person dies, or do nothing and watch 5 people die? Many will answer that they would not throw the switch. How an issue or question is framed can influence how someone will choose. By the way, second camera assistant Sarah Jones was killed on a train trestle when struck by a freight train on February 20, 2014, the first day of filming of Midnight Rider. The film was not completed.

At his trial, Cameron Todd Willingham (Post #62) had a chance to plead guilty to killing his 3 daughters in an arson fire to get life instead of the death penalty. He would have had to live with the shame of being known as someone who plead guilty to that. He still would have had a chance at exoneration, although probably without knowing what the odds were. There was a choice to make. Open one door, life. Open the other, death. There are parallels with the situation Kevin Brown was in. If the details of the investigation got out, there are those who accept such accusations at face value. We have seen that right here in the pages of websleuths. Both had a choice. Both would have had to live with the shame of being known as someone who committed a terrible crime. Both chose not to. It is all a matter of how the question is framed. Kevin Brown is dead and he gets reamed out for that. Cameron Todd Willingham is dead and he gets nothing but sympathy.

There was always hope for Cameron even if he had plead guilty. There would have been someone like the late Morley Safer (2), or an Innocence Project, or the Texas Forensic Science Commission, who would have taken up his cause.

More about an Arizona case where a suspect may have been falsely accused due to overzealous police:
There may be parallels between the San Diego case and the Phoenix case brought up in Post #91, reference #2. Did the Arizona DPS crime lab really have matches to bullets in 4 cases? This is an accredited crime lab. Results should have been verified before a report is completed. The possibility comes to mind that the police may have been overzealous and misinterpreted the lab reports. How could the lab have made a mistake in 4 cases? Perhaps "could not be excluded" on a report was interpreted as a match. A gag order prevents clearing of the air. News video shows the suspect being released from jail (3). The suspect had a "million dollar smile" and is described as "elated". There is talk of a $10,000,000 civil suit.

(1)
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-driverless-cars-20160506-snap-story.html
Column
Is the world ready for driverless cars? Are driverless cars ready for the world?
May 6, 2016
Michael Hiltzik
Contact Reporter

(2)
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/morley-safers-pick-lenell-geters-in-jail-02-07-2011/
Morley Safer's pick: Lenell Geter's in Jail
Safer's all-time favorite story for the broadcast was one that helped a convicted man escape a life sentence

(3)
http://www.abc15.com/news/region-phoenix-metro/central-phoenix/freeway-shootings-update-emergency-hearing-called-in-freeway-shootings-case
Freeway shootings update: Accused freeway shooter Leslie Merritt Jr. released from jail
abc15.com staff

 

[JusticeWillBeServed]

‘I’m in This For As Long As I’m Alive,’ Says Cold Case Suspect’s Widow of Her Wrongful Death Lawsuit Against Police

Becky Brown had a hunch she was in for a long fight when she filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the City of San Diego in December 2014 — alleging that the San Diego Police Department mishandled a murder investigation that led her husband, a former crime lab worker, to kill himself.

Two years later, the case still hasn’t gone to trial, but that’s okay with the retired high school teacher. Brown just wants to clear her dead husband Kevin Brown’s name — insisting that he’s innocent of the grisly 1984 murder of a teenage girl that cold case detectives say he committed.

“When we first filed this the judge warned me, ‘You do realize this is going to go on for another year or two? This doesn’t happen fast,’ ” Becky tells PEOPLE. “And I told him, ‘That’s okay. I just have to do what I have to do. I’m in this for as long as I’m alive.’ ”

Depositions of San Diego police officers and crime lab workers connected with the case are expected to wrap up in mid January and Brown’s lawsuit is expected to finally go to trial in May 2017.

 

[kemo]

I support the widow 100% on this. I don't know what the SDPD was thinking when they went after him but they didn't have a case to take to trial. They probably figured that apply enough pressure and he might confess; he might even be guilty.

 

[CheckYourProof]

In the matter of the 'Kevin Brown Betrayal':

San Diego police detectives, some websleuths, and some members of the public have jumped to conclusions in assuming Kevin Brown is guilty of crimes committed against Claire Hough.

A famous case recently made the news again (the father just died of cancer) that is a prime example of jumping to conclusions.

In 1980 a little girl named Azaria was camping with her parents near Ayer's Rock, known by native Australians as Uluru, in Australia. The couple's 3rd child, she was just a baby, only 9 weeks old. Azaria disappeared, seemingly into thin air. She could hardly have run off, could she? The police went after the parents for murder.

The father, Michael Chamberlain, said (quotes from The Australian):
"We had gone as babes in the woods. A Catholic lawyer described us as lambs to the slaughter. We had lived by the credo that if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. It was dead wrong.”

The mother, Lindy, "was jailed for life after being found guilty of murder."

"The couple were pardoned in 1986 after new evidence emerged"

"The couple were portrayed by Sam Neill and Meryl Streep in the 1988 film Evil Angels."

"Mr Chamberlain, who fought a long battle for justice after his baby daughter was snatched by a dingo at Uluru in 1980, has died aged 72."

-----------------------------------------------
Michael Chamberlain dead at 72

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...2/news-story/78b19961bf84ef5a9293b6e89c86a851

The Australian
8:31PM January 10, 2017
by Emily Ritchie/Journalist
-----------------------------------------------

There is a websleuths page on this case:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...rthern-Territory-17-Aug-1980-dingo-baby/page1

It is likely that Kevin Brown also went by the credo that if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. He was dead wrong.

 

[CheckYourProof]

In the matter of the 'Kevin Brown Betrayal':

There have been websleuths members, who formed an opinion after watching one 40 minute show, who have expressed doubt that DNA contamination with sperm could have happened in this case, despite the fact that examples of this happening have been previously posted on this thread.

A doubting Thomas would need to see the contamination event happen with his own eyes. Without a time machine to send Thomas back to the 1980's San Diego police dept crime lab, there may be no way to convince Thomas.

For those who are not quite so credulous, here is a recent story from the news of a contamination event involving sperm, printed in the New York Times on December 29, 2016.

Sperm from a previous IVF procedure in a Dutch fertility clinic may have been mixed into sperm of the next IVF procedure, involving different clients. This error could involve more than one case. Some of the couples are expecting, some have already had a child. "The oldest child who might have been conceived as a result of the possible mix-up is about a year old." Some have had fertilized eggs frozen.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Dutch Fertility Clinic Investigates Possible Sperm Mix-Up
By NINA SIEGAL
DEC. 28, 2016

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/28/world/europe/netherlands-fertility-clinic-ivf.html?_r=0

AMSTERDAM &#8212; Twenty-six couples in the Netherlands are waiting to find out if the sperm that was used to fertilize their eggs at a reproductive technology clinic might have come from the wrong men.

The clinic, at the University Medical Center in Utrecht, said on Wednesday that a procedural error might have led to a mix-up in sperm.

&#8220;In each of these cases there is a small risk, small but it cannot be ruled out, that during the procedure, sperm cells of the mother&#8217;s own partner have been mixed with remaining sperm from a previous procedure,&#8221; Paul Geurts, a spokesman for the hospital, said in an interview.
...
Primarily used in cases of male infertility, ICSI involves injecting a single sperm directly into a mother&#8217;s egg. The technician, guided by a microscope, injects the sperm using a glass pipette. The tip of the pipette is then discarded.

The technician, upon completing the procedure, discovered that there was still genetic material on the tip of the pipette, Mr. Geurts said. She notified the supervising technician, and upon further investigation, they discovered that sperm from a previous procedure had somehow gotten into the pipette &#8212; evidently because the technician had mistakenly used the wrong kind of rubber apparatus on the end of the pipette.
...
----------------------------------------------------------------

In the same New York Times story is information about a mixup that did actually result in a mother getting sperm from the wrong donor.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Jose Knijnenburg, director of Freya, a Dutch patient organization for fertility issues, said she was &#8220;shocked that this has happened.&#8221;
...
However, she added: &#8220;I&#8217;m not concerned about I.V.F. as a whole. It&#8217;s not the system, it&#8217;s not the clinic, but people are working, and people can make mistakes.&#8221; She said she knew of only one other such situation in the Netherlands.

That case, in 1993, involved a white mother who thought she had conceived twins from the sperm of a white donor, but gave birth to one white child and one black child.
----------------------------------------------------------------

 

[kemo]

It seems to me this case; i.e. The question of whether or not Kevin Brown killed Clair Hough, really boils down to the issue of the use of semen samples, provided by employees as controls. If this was a practice and if male lab employees from the 1980's are willing to state, under oath that it was, I would think it would settle the issue. I am not sure Lab management would want to admit to it and I would expect this to be something women working there would just not be aware of.

Obviously this isn't the sort of thing a public facility would want to publicize and but I would expect men who worked there, and perhaps some women, would talk freely about it among themselves and probably milk it for a few laughs.

Any contamination that occurred in those days would be quite understandable since forensic DNA, much less tests requiring amplification of DNA were not known. Minute amounts of biological material just didn't matter then.