CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions

[Salah11]

You'd be surprised how common that is. Some of the cousins (who were children themselves) had a better idea of what was going on, but they were also afraid of the parents. Many of the adult relatives were too. The parents were very intimidating people. Most relatives were aware of the emotional and physical abuse, but didn't think it was their place to interfere - and it was a different time. The brothers each told a cousin (on separate occasions) that their father had been touching them inappropriately. One of the cousins went to Kitty, who told her that it wasn't true and that was the end of the discussion. The other cousin was sworn to secrecy by Erik, which is heartbreaking because he was so afraid of being in more trouble for telling.

I feel bad for the kids but i will admit I judge the adults very harshly as what kind of parents were they that their children couldn’t confide in them.

They all seem highly dysfunctional not just Jose and Kitty imo

I grew up in the 90’s and cannot fathom anybody ignoring sexual abuse going on or any type of abuse and just ignoring it for a quiet life in a family.

Moo

 

[bearfossils]

Denial tends to be a big issue in these types of families as well, which is one of the reasons why abuse tends to be generational. Jose and Kitty were abused by at least one of their parents as well. It's also interesting how people who have similar backgrounds can spot one another and gravitate toward each oth

I feel bad for the kids but i will admit I judge the adults very harshly as what kind of parents were they that their children couldn’t confide in them.

They all seem highly dysfunctional not just Jose and Kitty imo

I grew up in the 90’s and cannot fathom anybody ignoring sexual abuse going on or any type of abuse and just ignoring it for a quiet life in a family.

Moo

It happens more frequently than we, as a society, would like to admit. Most abusers and rapists won’t face any consequences, legal or otherwise. The further back in time we go, the more abuse like that was covered up, ignored, and not spoken of. Even to this day, it’s a taboo subject.

There are legitimate reason victims of abuse don’t feel comfortable talking to others, going to authorities, or trying to escape their situations. It’s harder to understand why those in the periphery didn’t act. To be fair, there were many people who did act or speak in similar cases or instances, and they were frequently ignored. We owe victims more.

 

[Noirdame79]

I feel bad for the kids but i will admit I judge the adults very harshly as what kind of parents were they that their children couldn’t confide in them.

They all seem highly dysfunctional not just Jose and Kitty imo

I grew up in the 90’s and cannot fathom anybody ignoring sexual abuse going on or any type of abuse and just ignoring it for a quiet life in a family.

Moo

I get what you're saying, but as I mentioned, it's common. Denial tends to be very high in these families. And it's not uncommon to not want to accept what is happening or that such awful things are happening in your family. Many of these dysfunctional family systems have a warped sense of loyalty instilled. That's why many individuals in these families are often denied help or do not seek help. Generational abuse often thrives because of this.

 

[Noirdame79]

It happens more frequently than we, as a society, would like to admit. Most abusers and rapists won’t face any consequences, legal or otherwise. The further back in time we go, the more abuse like that was covered up, ignored, and not spoken of. Even to this day, it’s a taboo subject.

There are legitimate reason victims of abuse don’t feel comfortable talking to others, going to authorities, or trying to escape their situations. It’s harder to understand why those in the periphery didn’t act. To be fair, there were many people who did act or speak in similar cases or instances, and they were frequently ignored. We owe victims more.

Perfectly put and I agree.

 

[Salah11]

I will have to watch this later as this is why for me it’s such a tough case. They are proven liars and clearly changed their story multiple times.

 

[Catmommy]

The Menedez parents were shot 16 times. 16 times with shotguns. One of the boys reloaded a shotgun to finish killing their mother who was crawling on the floor after already being shot in the face. The initial shot to the father apparently came from behind as he sat on the couch eating ice cream. These facts are easily accessed in the Menedez autopsy report. Just days later the boys spent 15000 on three Rolex watches = not exactly the actions of traumatized victims. This was days later, in all they spent more than $700,000.00 on stuff they wanted before it was put to a halt. Their story of sexual abuse was the ONLY one that might sway jurors that this wasn't a preplanned murder for gain. It's worked on a lot of people who have to imagine there was a logical reason for the carnage and not just two entitled brats who came up with a plan so they didn't have to wait on living exactly like they wanted to but couldn't afford on their own.

 

[Salah11]

The Menedez parents were shot 16 times. 16 times with shotguns. One of the boys reloaded a shotgun to finish killing their mother who was crawling on the floor after already being shot in the face. The initial shot to the father apparently came from behind as he sat on the couch eating ice cream. These facts are easily accessed in the Menedez autopsy report. Just days later the boys spent 15000 on three Rolex watches = not exactly the actions of traumatized victims. This was days later, in all they spent more than $700,000.00 on stuff they wanted before it was put to a halt. Their story of sexual abuse was the ONLY one that might sway jurors that this wasn't a preplanned murder for gain. It's worked on a lot of people who have to imagine there was a logical reason for the carnage and not just two entitled brats who came up with a plan so they didn't have to wait on living exactly like they wanted to but couldn't afford on their own.

Yep so with such violence are they still a risk to society?

They clearly are incapable of making sound logical decisions or this wouldn’t of happened in the first place and Lyle was a adult not some kid.

If they feel threatened again would they react the same way?!

 

[LinasK]

The Menedez parents were shot 16 times. 16 times with shotguns. One of the boys reloaded a shotgun to finish killing their mother who was crawling on the floor after already being shot in the face. The initial shot to the father apparently came from behind as he sat on the couch eating ice cream. These facts are easily accessed in the Menedez autopsy report. Just days later the boys spent 15000 on three Rolex watches = not exactly the actions of traumatized victims. This was days later, in all they spent more than $700,000.00 on stuff they wanted before it was put to a halt. Their story of sexual abuse was the ONLY one that might sway jurors that this wasn't a preplanned murder for gain. It's worked on a lot of people who have to imagine there was a logical reason for the carnage and not just two entitled brats who came up with a plan so they didn't have to wait on living exactly like they wanted to but couldn't afford on their own.

Exactly. I was also abused by a relative. I have a really hard time seeing these brothers in the same light as a woman who can't escape an abusive marriage. They had the resources to walk away.

 

[Noirdame79]

Exactly. I was also abused by a relative. I have a really hard time seeing these brothers in the same light as a woman who can't escape an abusive marriage. They had the resources to walk away.

Their father was a Hollywood executive, and wealthy. He had a lot of power, and many people were afraid of him. Their mother always put their father first, and not them. They were abused their entire lives by their parents. That's different than an adult woman in a battering relationship, and in both instances, it can get to the point where the victim(s) feel they cannot leave. When the victim leaves or tries to, that is often the most dangerous time, because the abuser doesn't want to lose control over the victim, and doesn't want the truth to come out. People have been killed by their abusers after they leave, it's not a guarantee of safety. Interestingly. actress Dominique Dunne (daughter of Dominick Dunne) is a classic and tragic example of this. She left her abuser, and that didn't save her.

According to a 2017 CNN article, 13% of filicides (children killed by parents) occur when the victims are between 18 and 40 years old. Being an adult doesn't take the threat away. The parents also owned guns, a fact rarely mentioned. There are also domestic homicides that have been covered up and presented as the victim running away or leaving on their own accord.

The brothers' emotional maturity was stunted. A psychiatrist who examined them concluded that their emotional ages were 8 and 10, respectively. Erik had recently graduated from high school and had never lived on his own; even Lyle's time at Princeton was controlled by his father, who frequently flew in to check on him and even tried to control his friendships. They were isolated from their relatives, who also feared the parents and didn't think it was their place to interfere; the police most likely would not have believed them, as I pointed out, one of the police officers stated years later that he and the other cops didn't believe the sexual abuse when it was brought out at trial and described it as "far-fetched". His reasoning was that because Jose Menendez was married and having affairs with women, he couldn't have molested his sons. That was very outdated and ignorant, and the prevailing attitude back then. They had very little real-world experience and their father controlled the money. What resources? They had no power, or at least didn't think they did. And that's the point. Their mindset was not of people who had a healthy, loving upbringing or had ordinary experiences growing up. They were isolated, massively controlled and were rarely allowed to make their own decisions. They were ill-prepared to live in the real world, thanks to their parents. I don't like to make cult comparisons, but they were raised in a very controlled, cult-like mindset. Lyle and Erik were not raised to be individuals or to be their own person. They were treated like possessions and extensions of their parents.

Their parents being wealthy did not mean that they could have just walked away, and they didn't think they could.

MOO

 

[LinasK]

Their father was a Hollywood executive, and wealthy. He had a lot of power, and many people were afraid of him. Their mother always put their father first, and not them. They were abused their entire lives by their parents. That's different than an adult woman in a battering relationship, and in both instances, it can get to the point where the victim(s) feel they cannot leave. When the victim leaves or tries to, that is often the most dangerous time, because the abuser doesn't want to lose control over the victim, and doesn't want the truth to come out. People have been killed by their abusers after they leave, it's not a guarantee of safety. Interestingly. actress Dominique Dunne (daughter of Dominick Dunne) is a classic and tragic example of this. She left her abuser, and that didn't save her.

According to a 2017 CNN article, 13% of filicides (children killed by parents) occur when the victims are between 18 and 40 years old. Being an adult doesn't take the threat away. The parents also owned guns, a fact rarely mentioned. There are also domestic homicides that have been covered up and presented as the victim running away or leaving on their own accord.

The brothers' emotional maturity was stunted. A psychiatrist who examined them concluded that their emotional ages were 8 and 10, respectively. Erik had recently graduated from high school and had never lived on his own; even Lyle's time at Princeton was controlled by his father, who frequently flew in to check on him and even tried to control his friendships. They were isolated from their relatives, who also feared the parents and didn't think it was their place to interfere; the police most likely would not have believed them, as I pointed out, one of the police officers stated years later that he and the other cops didn't believe the sexual abuse when it was brought out at trial and described it as "far-fetched". His reasoning was that because Jose Menendez was married and having affairs with women, so he couldn't have molested his sons. That was very outdated and ignorant, and the prevailing attitude back then. They had very little real-world experience and their father controlled the money. What resources? They had no power, or at least didn't think they did. And that's the point. Their mindset was not of people who had a healthy, loving upbringing or had ordinary experiences growing up. They were isolated, massively controlled and were rarely allowed to make their own decisions. They were ill-prepared to live in the real world, thanks to their parents. I don't like to make cult comparisons, but they were raised in a very controlled, cult-like mindset. Lyle and Erik were not raised to be individuals or to be their own person. They were treated like possessions and extensions of their parents.

Their parents being wealthy did not mean that they could have just walked away, and they didn't think they could.

MOO

Stunted emotional maturity is what you bring up as a sentencing factor. It doesn't mean that they deserve to be freed.

 

[Noirdame79]

Stunted emotional maturity is what you bring up as a sentencing factor. It doesn't mean that they deserve to be freed.

The stunted emotional development shows why they didn't think they could leave and why they thought killing their parents was the only option. They stated that they believed at the time, that their parents were going to kill them that night. After the fact, they realized they were mistaken. Dr. Ann Burgess, (who analyzed the crime scene) concluded that the killings were done out of fear, hence the overkill. There is nothing to indicate that they pose any kind of threat to society. They had no history of violence prior to killing their parents, who abused and terrorized them for years. All of their teachers and coaches described them as good kids, who worked hard and did their best. All but one relative supports them and wants them to be free. That says a lot, when the relatives think they should be free, and who confirms how horrible and terrifying the parents were.

JMO

 

[LinasK]

The stunted emotional development shows why they didn't think they could leave and why they thought killing their parents was the only option. They stated that they believed at the time, that their parents were going to kill them that night. After the fact, they realized they were mistaken. Dr. Ann Burgess, (who analyzed the crime scene) concluded that the killings were done out fear, hence the overkill. There is nothing to indicate that they pose any kind of threat to society. They had no history of violence prior to killing their parents, who abused and terrorized them for years. All of their teachers and coaches described them as good kids, who worked hard and did their best. All but one relative supports them and wants them to be free. That says a lot, when the relatives think they should be free, and who confirms how horrible and terrifying the parents were.

JMO

It still doesn't justify the way that they murdered them. Many relatives of criminals support their relatives.

 

[Noirdame79]

It still doesn't justify the way that they murdered them. Many relatives of criminals support their relatives.

It's not about justifying it. Many agree that they should have served a lesser sentence. Had they been convicted of manslaughter or second-degree (which many of the first trial jurors voted for) they would most likely be free by now. An acquittal was never on the table, they were never going to "get off". They were always going to serve time. They did love their parents, miss them, and have remorse. They wish they hadn't done it, but at that time, they didn't think they had any other choice. It isn't black and white, and one size doesn't fit all. Abuse is a mitigating factor, IMO.

 

[supernothing]

I agree Noirdame79

There is clear evidence the boys were SA'd by their father and their mother protected their father.

I'm not suggesting they should have been cleared, they deserved prison time. We can't just shoot our abusers.

They have served 35 years and they have paid for their crime. Had this been fully understood at the time the crime shouldn't have been first degree murder. Manslaughter yes.

 

[Salah11]

It's not about justifying it. Many agree that they should have served a lesser sentence. Had they been convicted of manslaughter or second-degree (which many of the first trial jurors voted for) they would most likely be free by now. An acquittal was never on the table, they were never going to "get off". They were always going to serve time. They did love their parents, miss them, and have remorse. They wish they hadn't done it, but at that time, they didn't think they had any other choice. It isn't black and white, and one size doesn't fit all. Abuse is a mitigating factor, IMO.

and yet they changed their story multiple times so how can anybody believe a word they say?

Lyle is so twisted he can’t even be faithful to a women while in jail serving life.

Moo

 

[Noirdame79]

and yet they changed their story multiple times so how can anybody believe a word they say?

Lyle is so twisted he can’t even be faithful to a women while in jail serving life.

Moo

Lyle told law enforcement that the killings could have been business-related. The mafia angle was something the police came up with themselves. Hochman did not look into the case beyond the prosecution stance. It took Lyle much longer to open up about the abuse he suffered at the hands of his father; it may have gone on longer than what he testified to. Survivors are often very reluctant to come forward and it can take years for them to disclose that they have been abused, if they disclose it all. It's never easy to reveal that you have been sexually abused, especially by a parent. Hochman's "press conference" was full of inaccuracies (he couldn't even pronounce Leslie Abramson's name correctly) and was a disservice to abuse survivors.

The brothers admitted to what they lied about in the first trial. Whatever Lyle's relationship status is, it has nothing to do with the case itself. He and his wife have been separated for quite some time.

JMO

 

[bearfossils]

Stunted emotional maturity is what you bring up as a sentencing factor. It doesn't mean that they deserve to be freed.

“Stunted emotional maturity” is a funny way to refer to the psychological, emotional, and physical abuse of children. It’s a factor that should have been brought up during the original trial as well as sentencing.

Do you really believe they are a threat to society? There are far more violent and depraved individuals who have served much shorter sentences. If prison is truly supposed to reform an offender, then how to they not qualify for at least parole?

 

[LinasK]

“Stunted emotional maturity” is a funny way to refer to the psychological, emotional, and physical abuse of children. It’s a factor that should have been brought up during the original trial as well as sentencing.

Do you really believe they are a threat to society? There are far more violent and depraved individuals who have served much shorter sentences. If prison is truly supposed to reform an offender, then how to they not qualify for at least parole?

Yes I do. I don't think that they should ever be free because of the heinousness of their crimes. I'm sorry, but being abused doesn't give you a free pass to murder.

 

[LinasK]

It's not about justifying it. Many agree that they should have served a lesser sentence. Had they been convicted of manslaughter or second-degree (which many of the first trial jurors voted for) they would most likely be free by now. An acquittal was never on the table, they were never going to "get off". They were always going to serve time. They did love their parents, miss them, and have remorse. They wish they hadn't done it, but at that time, they didn't think they had any other choice. It isn't black and white, and one size doesn't fit all. Abuse is a mitigating factor, IMO.

The time to bring up mitigating factors is at sentencing, Not just because they want to be free and feel they've done enough time.

 

[Noirdame79]

The time to bring up mitigating factors is at sentencing, Not just because they want to be free and feel they've done enough time.

The abuse was significant as to what led to the fear that led them to believe that their parents would kill them.