CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions

[Swirlz]

There was also testimony of an uncle-by-marriage who was no longer a part of the family at the time of the trial, he was an ex-husband of one of Jose's sisters. He testified to having walked in on Jose repeatedly punching a 5 yr. old Lyle what he described as "very hard".

A cousin also testified to Jose attempting to teach Erik to ride a bike by putting him at age 5 on top of a bike with no training wheels and then pushing him hard down a steep hill with Erik screaming all the way down the hill and both Erik and the bike going flying in opposite directions when the bike would hit bottom. His testimony was that Jose did this repeatedly with Erik begging him to stop until Erik cut his knee on a jagged rock and was bleeding. A child abuse expert testified to a scar on Erik's knee being consistent with the story the cousin told.

A teacher of Erik's testified to Kitty showing up drunk to a parent teacher conference and proceeding to verbally abuse and berate the teacher in Erik's presence.

 

[Bekind89]

There was also testimony of an uncle-by-marriage who was no longer a part of the family at the time of the trial, he was an ex-husband of one of Jose's sisters. He testified to having walked in on Jose repeatedly punching a 5 yr. old Lyle what he described as "very hard".

A cousin also testified to Jose attempting to teach Erik to ride a bike by putting him at age 5 on top of a bike with no training wheels and then pushing him hard down a steep hill with Erik screaming all the way down the hill and both Erik and the bike going flying in opposite directions when the bike would hit bottom. His testimony was that Jose did this repeatedly with Erik begging him to stop until Erik cut his knee on a jagged rock and was bleeding. A child abuse expert testified to a scar on Erik's knee being consistent with the story the cousin told.

A teacher of Erik's testified to Kitty showing up drunk to a parent teacher conference and proceeding to verbally abuse and berate the teacher in Erik's presence.

And? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but what on earth about this justifies blowing your parents to pieces with a shotgun?
Parents aren't perfect, they are human and as a humans they make mistakes.
Nothing justifies what those two sociopaths did, nothing.
As far as that photo goes, ?

 

[Swirlz]

O.k., I can only explain what the defense position was at the time. The juries were read an "imperfect self-defense" instruction. The defendant's position was that they believed their parents were going to kill them in response to them having threatened to expose the family secret about sexual abuse. At the time, both parents owned firearms. It was also Erik's belief at the time that rape by his father was imminent. There were two juries, one for each defendant. They were allowed the options of either first or second degree murder or either first or second degree manslaughter. No option for acquittal appeared on the ballot. What in California is called "imperfect self-defense" is a legal option originally intended to aid battered women but it was applied in this case. The jurors were divided and couldn't reach a conclusion.

So to sum it up, the evidence of prior abuse was used, as it would be used in battered women's cases, to show a pattern of abusive behavior on the part of the decedents. Making the point that through the eyes of the defendants, they posed a threat on the night of the homicides.

 

[Jade]

...

Jackie Lacey: It is … very, very possible that … Jose Menendez was a child molester. … But you don't get to murder him and his wife in cold blood.

….

Jackie Lacey: No … I think what the judge has to weigh and consider is: is this newly discovered evidence that would've changed the verdict?

And Lacey says she does not believe it would have.

Jackie Lacey: They're still stuck with the planning … the cover-up, the money that they spent afterwards. … I think that you could argue … the sexual abuse occurred … On the other hand, at the moment these men are driving down to San Diego, paying for … the murder weapons, coming back and waiting for an opportune time to go in and kill their parents, the molestation is not occurring right then. … I do not believe that at the time they murdered them, that they were in danger at that particular minute of being murdered by those people. I think they hated them. They might have had a good reason to hate them. … But we can't condone vigilantism. … When you calmly and logically looked at the facts surrounding the killing, it's a murder.

...

Menendez brothers' claims of abuse supported by newly discovered letter, new allegation. Will their convictions stand?

 

[otto]

There was also testimony of an uncle-by-marriage who was no longer a part of the family at the time of the trial, he was an ex-husband of one of Jose's sisters. He testified to having walked in on Jose repeatedly punching a 5 yr. old Lyle what he described as "very hard".

A cousin also testified to Jose attempting to teach Erik to ride a bike by putting him at age 5 on top of a bike with no training wheels and then pushing him hard down a steep hill with Erik screaming all the way down the hill and both Erik and the bike going flying in opposite directions when the bike would hit bottom. His testimony was that Jose did this repeatedly with Erik begging him to stop until Erik cut his knee on a jagged rock and was bleeding. A child abuse expert testified to a scar on Erik's knee being consistent with the story the cousin told.

A teacher of Erik's testified to Kitty showing up drunk to a parent teacher conference and proceeding to verbally abuse and berate the teacher in Erik's presence.

Did the relatives who claim they observed child abuse report that abuse to authorities, or were they so unconcerned about it that they did nothing? What about the teacher? There's a duty of care. Did the teacher wave as a drunk mother drove away with an abused child?

 

[Swirlz]

Did the relatives who claim they observed child abuse report that abuse to authorities, or were they so unconcerned about it that they did nothing? What about the teacher? There's a duty of care. Did the teacher wave as a drunk mother drove away with an abused child?

People were afraid of and were intimidated by Jose Menendez and no, no one did anything but that isn't unusual. I mean, this forum is replete with stories about child abuse that goes unreported and with no one doing anything. Not sure why it would be particularly shocking or impossible to believe in this case.

 

[Swirlz]

More from the link Jade quoted from above: Menendez brothers' claims of abuse supported by newly discovered letter, new allegation. Will their convictions stand?
LESLIE ABRAMSON (Defense opening at trial): Good afternoon … The only question in this case is why did these killings occur? … Why they were killed is what the focus of all of our evidence will be on.

What the defense was arguing was that since this was a self-defense case, the brothers were deserving of a lesser charge and punishment. The defense attorneys who tried the case didn't respond to "48 Hours"' requests for an interview. Cliff Gardner represents Lyle and Erik Menendez today.

Cliff Gardner: They had the defense of … imperfect self-defense.

Imperfect self-defense, meaning the brothers honestly believed that they had to take action to save their lives, even though it might not seem rational.

Cliff Gardner: And if it's honest but unreasonable … You are culpable of manslaughter, not of murder.

[...]
LYLE MENENDEZ (in court): I told him that I would tell everybody … Then he said, … we all make choices in life, son. Erik made his. You've made yours.

JILL LANSING: What did you think was gonna happen?

LYLE MENENDEZ: I thought we were in danger. I thought he had no—he felt he had no choice.

JILL LANSING: But to what?

LYLE MENENDEZ: That he would kill us.

[...]

Alan Andersen: Hitting the kids with the belt, never had a problem with that.

And Kitty.

Alan Andersen: She wouldn't get up to console the children, nothing.

While none of the witnesses, including Alan, ever saw Lyle or Erik Menendez being sexually abused, Alan did recall something that struck him as odd.

Alan Andersen: Jose would tell the boys, "In the bedroom" … and then he would close the door and then he'd take showers with 'em.

 

[Jw192]

O.k., I went and looked for this pic. This is the best I can do. It appears to be cropped. In the original I saw, Jose is visible and standing off to the side looking up at the baby, Erik. His hands aren't up, waiting ready to catch him. And I'm not sure if it's visible in this pic but one hand of Erik's is slipping off of the bar. An aunt who was present at the time this pic was taken said it was Kitty who took the pic.
View attachment 611087

With all due respect here... What does this prove? Obviously the child in this image wasn't seriously harmed or harmed at all, and there is zero proof whatsoever that the millisecond after this image was snapped, one or both of the adults in the room didn't grab the child and soothe it, correct?
We have a photo in my family photo album of me as a very young child - in it I am high in the air with the most TERRIFIED look on my face and my grandad is below me with one arm by his side and the other doing a salute... Did I fall to the ground after the photo was taken? No. Was I abused as a child by my grandad? No, most certainly not. My grandad literally worshipped the air I breathed from the moment I was born to the moment he ceased to breathe and he would often throw me up into the air and catch me. The terrified look on my face (which my whole family to this day find hilarious and have printed on birthday cards) was a young child experiencing a sensation and it cannot be proven that the child in this image wasn't experiencing a second of a panic sensation after being let go of for a brief second for a photo, before being held again.

The confirmation bias in this case is so strong and some people will grasp at anything and reach so far that I can tickle their fingertips from here in the UK.

Again though, I will repeat - maybe the brothers experienced abuse and maybe they didn't, NOBODY knows and it isn't a fact either way and in law an unproven allegation (or even a proven case) of abuse is not and will never be a justification for murder. However people try to spin it, by law in any land on earth, the Menendez brothers are murderers. Convicted murderers and seasoned criminals before AND after the murders of their parents - THAT is a fact.

Respectfully MOO

 

[Salah11]

If they had not taken the law into their own hands and gone to the police with their evidence, then it would have been their parents in jail.



They are in jail and still breaking the rules like they did all those years ago. Obviously, they have not learned a thing and still need to be locked away for everybody's protection.

 

[Swarley]

O.k., I went and looked for this pic. This is the best I can do. It appears to be cropped. In the original I saw, Jose is visible and standing off to the side looking up at the baby, Erik. His hands aren't up, waiting ready to catch him. And I'm not sure if it's visible in this pic but one hand of Erik's is slipping off of the bar. An aunt who was present at the time this pic was taken said it was Kitty who took the pic.

I think this is what you’re looking for. Exhibit 179. Not the greatest picture quality, but it does seem like Erik’s left hand is slipping off of the bar.

 

[Swirlz]

@Swarley, thanks. Do you know if this was shown in the retrial?

 

[Swarley]

@Swarley, thanks. Do you know if this was shown in the retrial?

You’re welcome. Yes, they were shown to the jury in the second trial.

 

[Sillybilly]

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