Found Deceased CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

[megs1477]

If it was possible to conclusively identify Fang and only to give a probable identification of John, it suggests there might have been differences in the condition of their remains.

I don't know what those differences were or would be likely to be. But given that both likely died at the same time, in the same place, and were subjected to the same conditions, it would be interesting to know the reason for the potential differences.

It could be as simple as having difficulty obtaining a comparative sample for JRF.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

It could be as simple as having difficulty obtaining a comparative sample for JRF.

That's what I meant when I was talking about the condition of his remains possibly being different to the condition of Fang's. If they could obtain DNA from one but not the other.

 

[iamshadow21]

That's what I meant when I was talking about the condition of his remains possibly being different to the condition of Fang's. If they could obtain DNA from one but not the other.

Comparative sample means something to compare the remains to. So, a blood or tissue sample he may have on file with a hospital or doctor, a toothbrush or hairbrush he was known to have used, or samples from a close genetic relative (parent, sibling, child, etc.) Some of those are considered 'stronger' than others, as we saw in Gannon's trial. They ultimately confirmed Gannon's ID by comparing DNA from his bones to samples from both his parents, even though I believe they did have a toothbrush he used.

MOO

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Comparative sample means something to compare the remains to. So, a blood or tissue sample he may have on file with a hospital or doctor, a toothbrush or hairbrush he was known to have used, or samples from a close genetic relative (parent, sibling, child, etc.) Some of those are considered 'stronger' than others, as we saw in Gannon's trial. They ultimately confirmed Gannon's ID by comparing DNA from his bones to samples from both his parents, even though I believe they did have a toothbrush he used.

MOO

It has been said that Fang and John were planning to visit his sister, so that's at least one presumably close genetic relative. I say presumably because it's possible they could be adoptive siblings or something similar, and not have a direct genetic link.

There has been nothing so far to suggest John had no living relatives, so I'd personally find it hard to believe there's nothing and nobody to compare to. But if there's none of John's DNA to compare due to the condition of his remains, which I believe @10ofRods has previously said is a real possibility... that's a whole different problem.

 

[I'm Nobody]

Comparative sample means something to compare the remains to. So, a blood or tissue sample he may have on file with a hospital or doctor, a toothbrush or hairbrush he was known to have used, or samples from a close genetic relative (parent, sibling, child, etc.) Some of those are considered 'stronger' than others, as we saw in Gannon's trial. They ultimately confirmed Gannon's ID by comparing DNA from his bones to samples from both his parents, even though I believe they did have a toothbrush he used.

MOO

Thanks @iamshadow21 What about those 3 old cell phones collected in one of the search warrants? Could they recover DNA from possible traces of earwax, sweat, mucus or skin cells left on his old phones?
Or would the phones not be a reliable source?
JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

Thanks @iamshadow21 What about those 3 old cell phones collected in one of the search warrants? Could they recover DNA from possible traces of earwax, sweat, mucus or skin cells left on his old phones?
Or would the phones not be a reliable source?
JMO

The problem with those - and if anyone feels I'm wrong and wants to correct me, please do - is they're kind of a secondary source. A blood or tissue sample from the person premortem, or a DNA sample from a near relative is more direct. There's no question who the contributors were to those samples, whereas personal items like toothbrushes, hair brushes, wallets, mobile phones, may be covered in DNA, but you're acting on the assumption that DNA you get from them is the DNA of the person you think owned it, but sometimes, it's not that simple. Toothbrushes can touch another's in the cup, someone could borrow your mobile to make a call. In all likelihood, it's going to be the owner's DNA all over it, but because of casual contact, you might get other profiles too. So a 'clean' sample from the subject or their relative is preferred, just because there's more chance of an unambiguous comparison. I'm talking here purely about identification of deceased persons or living Does.

MOO

 

[10ofRods]

There's no point in pulling a blood relative into DNA analysis if there's no DNA from the body to compare it too.

OTOH, as I've written before, San Diego County could decide to spring for the more expensive (and time consuming) attempt to extract whatever (perhaps scant) DNA might be in tiny amounts of collagen still within the skeleton (for example, in the spine). There are really expensive techniques (and probably only a handful of professors who can do it) that attempt to reconstruct DNA from super-microscopic evidence within the marrow chambers. Mitochondrial DNA is the most likely to be found - and that would establish JRF's identity only if they then got DNA from his mother or a sibling from the same mother - and since there are so many other clues that it's JRF, I suppose that could be considered somehow more conclusive than merely finding his clothing, truck and possible some ID nearby.

I can't find the source that says they found ID, but I believe I read it here and we've discussed. IF no idea, the truck being up there and Jin Fang's identity being established should be enough - I don't see why San Diego should have to spend six months and tons of money for a process that is not certain to provide any more data.

This article from 2015 is about "ancient" bones but is relevant to contemporary bones with severe weathering:

Improving access to endogenous DNA in ancient bones and teeth - Scientific Reports

Poor DNA preservation is the most limiting factor in ancient genomic research. In the majority of ancient bones and teeth, endogenous DNA molecules represent a minor fraction of the whole DNA extract, rendering shot-gun sequencing inefficient for obtaining genomic data. Based on ancient human...

www.nature.com

The article describes the process (which is not the process used by regular forensic labs to obtain STR data). If there's such a lab in San Diego, it would likely be at UC San Diego, and if so, then they could ask the professor who runs the lab to use the enzymatic sequencing process (or its newest iteration) on the bones. Maybe that's what they're doing. But they cannot expect such a lab to simply drop what they're doing for their own research and do this as an emergency - if the person running the lab has time to do it (and I would expect they have to pay for the time they use), then it would get done sooner.

That may be why the final, positive identification of JRF has not been completed. This type of DNA is kind of like a mirror of the real thing, found in two places in a skeleton:

"hydroxy-apatite aggregates and within the organic collagen fibrils"

(from the above article. The hydroxy thingies are found in the bones). It's been pretty successful. Article also mentions teeth roots, which are apparently not available in this case. To do this research on JRF's bones, some bone would have to be destroyed - and for that, I'd imagine, some kind of permission would be needed from the family of the suspected person. I don't know the legalities of this, but if it were to turn out to be someone else, then it would be quite awkward for San Diego County to have destroyed parts of human remains without permission. Hence, the tentative identification (which is almost surely accurate). This expensive DNA test would be confirmatory of the other evidence, if it worked. Which I would think it would.

The toothbrush method can't work unless they have DNA that's from the actual body to match it to.

IMO.

 

[mark1969]

It has been said that Fang and John were planning to visit his sister, so that's at least one presumably close genetic relative. I say presumably because it's possible they could be adoptive siblings or something similar, and not have a direct genetic link.

There has been nothing so far to suggest John had no living relatives, so I'd personally find it hard to believe there's nothing and nobody to compare to. But if there's none of John's DNA to compare due to the condition of his remains, which I believe @10ofRods has previously said is a real possibility... that's a whole different problem.

If we are informed well ... JRF should have 2 sisters , 1 daughter and 1 father still alive

 

[10ofRods]

If we are informed well ... JRF should have 2 sisters , 1 daughter and 1 father still alive

The sisters would match at about 25% - which is not the forensic standard for complete positive identification. The father's DNA would be more useful - but he might not want to give it up and doesn't have to, unless under subpoena for being involved somehow in a crime. No judge is going to compel the father to submit blood if he doesn't want to (and since that's the kind of research I've done for many years - trying to coax people into giving blood - I know many people do not want to have blood drawn and many people don't want their own DNA in the hands of LE).

If the family itself has doubts about his demise, and is speculating that he's still alive and that's some other person's body - maybe they'll want to do it.

I think the best path is for them to carefully analyze the truck's interior (even if there was some bad weather - there should be things, say, in the glove compartment that he had touched; steering wheel should contain lots of DNA - it's easier to get and to separate from any other profiles than it would be to use genetic genealogy in a case like this.

Surely there are items in the mobile home that could be used to gather DNA (and for all we know, they are already using them).

But none of this matters in identification if there is no usable DNA in the skeleton.

As I have said before, the extraction methods for skeletal DNA are not typically available at a regular LE forensics lab - and the amount of research on each sample (to make sure it has any validity as far containing enough for STR/complete profile) is considerable. It's used in academic settings for a reason, and most samples are reviewed in many ways before anyone concludes that such DNA is complete enough for individual identification.

The problem is *not* finding a source of JRF's DNA somewhere (and better not to involve human subjects, IMO). The problem is finding DNA in a skeleton that may have had no teeth and whose bones have been polished in a waterflow event and whose hard collagen may have deteriorated in the sun.

P.S. If San Diego has opted to use one of the more recent biochemical methods for trying to procure DNA from bones where there are neither hair nor teeth, this is not going to happen quickly, as I keep stating. Only a few labs in the world know how to do it - it's done in paleoanthropology all the time, with mixed results (many a dead end, sadly). If the body had been frozen, like a Denisovan's, then yes, plenty of DNA. I predict it will be at least a couple of months - and maybe six or even longer before they can procure a contract with an academic researcher. I don't think there's a single independent contractor doing this work reliably.

IMO.

 

[mark1969]

The sisters would match at about 25% - which is not the forensic standard for complete positive identification. The father's DNA would be more useful - but he might not want to give it up and doesn't have to, unless under subpoena for being involved somehow in a crime. No judge is going to compel the father to submit blood if he doesn't want to (and since that's the kind of research I've done for many years - trying to coax people into giving blood - I know many people do not want to have blood drawn and many people don't want their own DNA in the hands of LE).

If the family itself has doubts about his demise, and is speculating that he's still alive and that's some other person's body - maybe they'll want to do it.

I think the best path is for them to carefully analyze the truck's interior (even if there was some bad weather - there should be things, say, in the glove compartment that he had touched; steering wheel should contain lots of DNA - it's easier to get and to separate from any other profiles than it would be to use genetic genealogy in a case like this.

Surely there are items in the mobile home that could be used to gather DNA (and for all we know, they are already using them).

But none of this matters in identification if there is no usable DNA in the skeleton.

As I have said before, the extraction methods for skeletal DNA are not typically available at a regular LE forensics lab - and the amount of research on each sample (to make sure it has any validity as far containing enough for STR/complete profile) is considerable. It's used in academic settings for a reason, and most samples are reviewed in many ways before anyone concludes that such DNA is complete enough for individual identification.

The problem is *not* finding a source of JRF's DNA somewhere (and better not to involve human subjects, IMO). The problem is finding DNA in a skeleton that may have had no teeth and whose bones have been polished in a waterflow event and whose hard collagen may have deteriorated in the sun.

P.S. If San Diego has opted to use one of the more recent biochemical methods for trying to procure DNA from bones where there are neither hair nor teeth, this is not going to happen quickly, as I keep stating. Only a few labs in the world know how to do it - it's done in paleoanthropology all the time, with mixed results (many a dead end, sadly). If the body had been frozen, like a Denisovan's, then yes, plenty of DNA. I predict it will be at least a couple of months - and maybe six or even longer before they can procure a contract with an academic researcher. I don't think there's a single independent contractor doing this work reliably.

IMO.

Where is the proof that the remains of JRF had no teeth ....? Stop this rumours please.... unless you show the pictures of his remains without teeth ....

 

[iamshadow21]

Where is the proof that the remains of JRF had no teeth ....? Stop this rumours please.... unless you show the pictures of his remains without teeth ....

Found Deceased - CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #2

I was looking at that same chart and didn't want to be the only one interested in this rather unpleasant topic. But it's a crucial topic. If nothing was found in the mobile home that was decomposing (meat out on the counter), I would assume that they wouldn't mention it in the search warrant...

www.websleuths.com

No picture showing dentition or lack thereof, but it was clear from this information early on that the teeth were severely damaged or missing. Otherwise, they could have IDed John using dental records. It was reported in MSM in that article by CBS8 that they could not identify based on dentals. The skull is one of the only body parts of John we know for a fact WAS recovered, and we do have a picture of it. It's blurred, but it is obviously a skull. So it's not that they just haven't found his skull for comparison. And it's not because he never saw a dentist, because it specifies that it can't be IDed based on dentals 'due to the condition of the remains.' So it isn't that they don't have anything to compare it to.

MOO

 

[slowpoke]

Latest cbs8 article

Link:

Remains found in Anza-Borrego confirmed as missing woman, Fang Jin​

“The Fang Jin missing person case in SB County was closed after San Diego investigators informed us that she had been located deceased in SD County. We only confirmed that our investigators had received the information and closed our missing person case for her. We did not confirm, nor suggest, that our Coroner’s Office was involved,” San Bernardino County Sheriff’s spokesperson Gloria Huerta emailed CBS 8 on Friday.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Latest cbs8 article

Link:

Remains found in Anza-Borrego confirmed as missing woman, Fang Jin​

“The Fang Jin missing person case in SB County was closed after San Diego investigators informed us that she had been located deceased in SD County. We only confirmed that our investigators had received the information and closed our missing person case for her. We did not confirm, nor suggest, that our Coroner’s Office was involved,” San Bernardino County Sheriff’s spokesperson Gloria Huerta emailed CBS 8 on Friday.

That answers a previous question I had about why the SB County Coroner's Office would have been involved. They weren't.

A prior article from an unapproved source, which suggested the SB County Coroner was involved, was completely wrong. Proving why that source isn't approved.

 

[10ofRods]

Found Deceased - CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #2

I was looking at that same chart and didn't want to be the only one interested in this rather unpleasant topic. But it's a crucial topic. If nothing was found in the mobile home that was decomposing (meat out on the counter), I would assume that they wouldn't mention it in the search warrant...

www.websleuths.com

No picture showing dentition or lack thereof, but it was clear from this information early on that the teeth were severely damaged or missing. Otherwise, they could have IDed John using dental records. Itwas reported in MSM in that article by CBS8 that they could not identify based on dentals. The skull is one of the only body parts of John we know for a fact WAS recovered, and we do have a picture of it. It's blurred, but it is obviously a skull. So it's not that they just haven't found his skull for comparison. And it's not because he never saw a dentist, because it specifies that it can't be IDed based on dentals 'due to the condition of the remains.' So it isn't that they don't have anything to compare it to.

MOO

Yes, since it has been reported more than once that dental records could not be used due to the state of the skeleton that means something was missing.

Anyone remembering what was in NAMUS regarding dental records? I'd think he'd seen a dentist in the military. It's possible he never once had anything filled or added/subtracted to his teeth, but if some of the teeth are missing, they can't use bite pattern to identify a body.

Since they could not ID on dental records, I assume they're going to try for DNA - but, again, that too may be only a partial solution to the problem.

If there were teeth, it should have been easy to get a full profile of his DNA for comparison to his military records. This is something basic that any forensic lab in California (and most of the US) should be able to do. That shouldn't have taken more than a couple of days past autopsy.

It's been two months. Which makes me think they are having a hard time extracting DNA from the skeleton - it really does look weathered. I wonder how much DNA was left in the clothing, there should be *some,* I'd think.

I too assume there were dental records prior to the misadventure.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I'm no expert on how remains are affected by the weather conditions they're exposed to, but I'm still amazed by how weathered JRF's remains were after only 8 weeks. Even taking into account the extreme heat and the flash floods, skeletonization seems to have happened really quickly.

 

[azure]

I'm no expert on how remains are affected by the weather conditions they're exposed to, but I'm still amazed by how weathered JRF's remains were after only 8 weeks. Even taking into account the extreme heat and the flash floods, skeletonization seems to have happened really quickly.

I just listened to a podcast about migrant deaths in the desert. An archaeologist performed a study on pig decomposition in the AZ desert to mimic the decomposition of human bodies. He put clothing, socks and shoes on the pigs and left one dead underneath a pile of rocks, the other in the shade. Between vultures and insects, all clothing was removed and scattered, all flesh was completely gone and the bones were scattered over a wide area with some partially consumed by the 6 week point. Now add the flood and it's a wonder that anything was left.

 

[10ofRods]

I just listened to a podcast about migrant deaths in the desert. An archaeologist performed a study on pig decomposition in the AZ desert to mimic the decomposition of human bodies. He put clothing, socks and shoes on the pigs and left one dead underneath a pile of rocks, the other in the shade. Between vultures and insects (some of whom actually consume human bones), all clothing was removed and scattered, all flesh was completely gone and the bones were scattered over a wide area with some partially consumed by the 6 week point. Now add the flood and it's a wonder that anything was left.

Right? I've never been to the Body Farms or participated in that kind of training, but my good friend goes every year and we talk about all the findings incessantly.

When it's insects and vultures (and even coyotes) the skull usually gets left behind (but the brains and all soft parts eaten). As that happens, obviously, teeth can fall out. Especially if after the processing by insects and vultures is done, the skeleton then has even a short trip being moved by water on sandy/gravelly soil (it would be like being in a rock tumbler).

So I can see how the teeth might be missing (along with all the hard collagen and of course, any remnants of blood).

Very sad - but we wait to see if they can find a way to ID him. The ME will likely present to the Coroner and the associates who are the forensic team and see if they can all agree that it was heat stroke (if it was) and who it is (If it's true that ID was found, for example - or someone who knew JRF remembers the shirt; there's probably other evidence of that type as well).

IMO

 

[azure]

I'm adding an article about the pig desert decomp study because it's very interesting and relevant to this case.

During hot and dry weather, some of the pigs were skeletonized in 60 hours!

What dead pigs can teach us about missing bodies in the Arizona desert

Dead pigs dressed up as migrants in the Arizona desert help show researchers how migrants die and are torn apart by scavengers after they cross border

www.azcentral.com

She started experiments involving vultures after realizing something was scavenging on the human bodies almost immediately after the body farm was set up. The bodies are fenced to prevent most animals from entering, so she quickly realized it was the work of vultures.

"They can render a body to a skeleton in about five hours," with up to 35 black vultures feasting on a human body at once, Spradley said.

In one study, Spradley found vultures displaced bones from a human body over a 900-square-foot area. The more scattered, the harder it is to build a biological profile and identify a body, Spradley said.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I'm adding an article about the pig desert decomp study because it's very interesting and relevant to this case.

During hot and dry weather, some of the pigs were skeletonized in 60 hours!

What dead pigs can teach us about missing bodies in the Arizona desert

Dead pigs dressed up as migrants in the Arizona desert help show researchers how migrants die and are torn apart by scavengers after they cross border

www.azcentral.com

Hmmm... around the world, scavenging birds are often used to locate bodies for exactly this reason. A large number in one place is a sign that something has died at that location.

if there had been lots of vultures scavenging at Anza-Borrego, you'd think somebody might have noticed and gone to see what it was. But apparently not.

 

[Chelly]

Wish I hadn't looked at that dead pig wearing jeans, sneakers, sweatshirt and hat.