GUILTY CA - Forrest Hayes, 51, dies of heroin OD on yacht, Santa Cruz, 23 Nov 2013

[Ausgirl]

She knew the drill because she killed Dean with lethal dose 2 months prior. Who knows have many more times that we do not know of.

rsbm

Yeah, my problem with that is, if she had intentionally killed before and was all murderous black widow like that, why would she need to google what to do? Seems like something a person would do in a panic. I kinda doubt an experienced killer would panic like that.

I also doubt she'd be wanting to cook heroin in a spoon in front of her big-money clients, that's a pretty skanky thing to do, not very sexy at all. So bringing a pre-prepared syringe makes sense, in her situation.

I honestly think people maybe *want* her to be another Wuornos, including the cops - but everything I'm seeing strongly suggests she was just a gormless junkie whose 'dates' and boyfriends dabbled in drugs too, no matter how much their loved ones want to believe they did not.

 

[threelittlebirdies]

^^^
So you think she is just a reckless junkie as opposed to a calculated black widow serial killer?

 

[Brightbird]

I just don't see her actions as evil. IMO he probably appeared to nod out ...and she left. Probably had no idea he was dead. He probably wasn't a regular user. Why would she leave evidence of what they were doing? She wouldn't want to ruin a good thing.

She was a prostitute and an addict. He knew exactly what she was. IMO this says more about him than it does her.

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BBM. Not sure I'd agree with that part. Never been on heroin but have been around addicts. From what I've heard it's quite obvious if someone's OD'ing because they stop breathing. I've been told that if that happens you should slap them and yell at them, as well as call an ambulance obviously. I'm sure someone else who is all whacked out wouldn't notice, but she was walking all around him. I would believe she freaked out and left but not that she didn't know he was in trouble. Experienced drug users know what's a normal reaction and what isn't. I've seen someone on the verge of OD'ing and it's pretty obvious that it's not just nodding off.

 

[possumheart]

I just want to point out that the site they met through was for friendships and hookups, not designed for nor condoning prostitution. On the face of it, that makes her more of 'an affair' or adventure for Googleman than 'a '.

At the end of the day, her diminished responsibility from drug intoxication, and the fact that this wasn't an official business deal, but a mutually negotiated 'experience' may just make a few lawyer's wallets fatter - and that's all. Even the yacht guy tidied up the scene and said there was no footage. That was found later on the cloud.

Does this all come down to duty of care? ... 'Cos there ain't much of that in the fast lane.

 

[possumheart]

BBM. Not sure I'd agree with that part. Never been on heroin but have been around addicts. From what I've heard it's quite obvious if someone's OD'ing because they stop breathing. I've been told that if that happens you should slap them and yell at them, as well as call an ambulance obviously. I'm sure someone else who is all whacked out wouldn't notice, but she was walking all around him. I would believe she freaked out and left but not that she didn't know he was in trouble. Experienced drug users know what's a normal reaction and what isn't. I've seen someone on the verge of OD'ing and it's pretty obvious that it's not just nodding off.

I have been on and around. She just didn't give a ****. I think she is messed up emotionally. It's more than just the smack that made her careless.
She could have put him in recovery position at the very least. Very messed up.

 

[zoran]

She did not pull him up on the sofa are in a chair or check to see if he was breathing. Falling onto the floor and lying their while she walked over him several time with wine in her hands does not seem like "oh maybe he fell asleep so let me just gather my drugs and syringe, draw the blinds and leave" come on, really?

Also, if she felt he asleep and didn't think he was dead why did she promptly go home and search the internet "administer lethal dose of heroin and leaving" am I responsible, researching and planning her defense. In conclusion, no she did not think he just fell asleep the second after she shot his arm up. She knew the drill because she killed Dean with lethal dose 2 months prior. Who knows have many more times that we do not know of.

There is the possibility he had done unspeakable and disgusting acts to her and pushed her over the edge , paid her well but that doesn't mean she didn't feel worthless. Maybe when he accidently OD.d she thought F.... You !

 

[danzn16]

rsbm

Yeah, my problem with that is, if she had intentionally killed before and was all murderous black widow like that, why would she need to google what to do? Seems like something a person would do in a panic. I kinda doubt an experienced killer would panic like that.

I also doubt she'd be wanting to cook heroin in a spoon in front of her big-money clients, that's a pretty skanky thing to do, not very sexy at all. So bringing a pre-prepared syringe makes sense, in her situation.

I honestly think people maybe *want* her to be another Wuornos, including the cops - but everything I'm seeing strongly suggests she was just a gormless junkie whose 'dates' and boyfriends dabbled in drugs too, no matter how much their loved ones want to believe they did not.

I agree with all of this. The media loves a black widow. A sexy girl that can get them ratings. Forget being unbiased and looking at it from all aspects


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[jjenny]

Does it really matter whether it was on purpose or not? Heroin is illegal.
Wouldn't that qualify for felony murder, whether it was intentional or not?

 

[quesarita]

I don't see where anyone's calling her a "black widow," but is someone who has already given fatal overdoses to two men who were apparently not addicts themselves, dangerous? IMO, yes.

 

[time]

Do you think the undercover agent requested heroin or she always had her kit fully prepared?

http://www.people.com/article/googl...e-alix-tichelman-forrest-hayes-another-victim

"When we arrested her, she had heroin in her possession and she had a fully loaded needle with heroin in it," Santa Cruz Deputy Police Chief Steve Clark says. "That tells you she had every intention of maybe doing the same thing in what she thought was the date with us."

This seems odd, that it was already prepared (precooked?), but I don't know much about storage and such.

Have no idea if the undercover agent requested it. I have a feeling even if he hadn't that she would carry it with her. Maybe she even does that because it is a source of income.... once she meets a john, she tells him she can sell some to him? Will be interesting to find out more. I think she knew the dead guy was in dire straights, would probably die, and just didn't care. It sounds like it is just par for the course, as others have mentioned ... no way a junkie is usually gonna call 911 and have it traced back to them, he took the risk and ended up on the minus side? ... opinion subject to future evidence though.

 

[panthera]

But becoming unconscious can be called "seen suffering medical problems" in the eyes of LE. We don't know if he had a seizure or what was seen on the video. It's still his responsibility for doing heroin. I would absolutely expect a call girl to skip out on me if I was in his shoes. What motive would she have to off this man that pays her big bucks to hang out on a yacht and do her drug of choice?


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After reading through this thread up to this post, that has been my question also. What would she gain by killing someone who was allegedly paying her $1,000/night?

My feelings regarding both the defendant and the victim are ambiguous. At the time of his death, both he and the defendant were engaged in illegal activities, and it does not appear (since there was surveillance video) that the drug was administered without his knowledge. It is not like someone slipped it into a drink and killed him. She may have realized after the fact that he was dead and that led to her inquiries regarding the consequences. Another thought is the surveillance video itself. If she had known of it aboard the yacht, would she have deliberately killed him? One would have to be completely out of their mind to do that.

The only ones who have my sympathy are his wife and children as the world now knows what the man they called husband and father was doing with his free time.



MOO

 

[LetJusticePrevail]

Sorry, but I consistently see this thread at the top indicating it is popular. This woman was a loser and the guy she murdered, bless his soul was unfortunately playing in the under bellies. Make no mistake, he did not deserve what happened to him but it is shocking the attention this case is getting over others where there are victims who did nothing wrong.

 

[Ausgirl]

I just want to point out that the site they met through was for friendships and hookups, not designed for nor condoning prostitution. On the face of it, that makes her more of 'an affair' or adventure for Googleman than 'a '.

Um no -- it's a site specifically for "sugar daddies" to go browsing for a "sugar baby". With it being very obvious that "sugar" = money.

And while the site does not allow direct ads for prostitution, there's an awful lot of hookers on it.

 

[Ausgirl]

^^^
So you think she is just a reckless junkie as opposed to a calculated black widow serial killer?

I think panthera's post above neatly sums up my own thoughts on this case. I do think there is something seriously wrong with Tichelman, over and above the junkie thing, but I do not see her as a serial killer. I see the cops desperately trying to prove she is one, and I see the media having a kneejerky field day, but that's what I think anyway. Just from my experience of living with/being friends with people who have slid from their regular lives into serious heroin addiction. And thinking logically too, with the likelihood a serial killer wouldn't rush home to google potential legal ramifications of her actions.

Anyway, I also like to take a balanced view of all the cases I take interest in. Perps are people, too, and things are not always as black and white as they might seem, or as people may wish them to be. That doesn't mean I do not believe in justice - quite the opposite, I think justice must serve the accused as well or it isn't really 'justice' is it. more like a lynch mob.

possumheart, re her leaving him there, OD'ing.. I posted upthread how I witnessed a group of guys attempting to carry their best friend since childhood out to the kerb while he's OD'ing, to avoid contact with the cops. That was my *last* straw of any kind of patience or sympathy with heroin addicts (heroin was terrible plague here in the late 80's and 90's, among the middle class kids and I lost many of my friends to it). Not all will behave like that, but some *do*.

 

[Ausgirl]

Sorry, but I consistently see this thread at the top indicating it is popular. This woman was a loser and the guy she murdered, bless his soul was unfortunately playing in the under bellies. Make no mistake, he did not deserve what happened to him but it is shocking the attention this case is getting over others where there are victims who did nothing wrong.

<modsnip> I think this case is actually pretty interesting on several levels, and there are also some truly innocent victims if you look a bit harder.

 

[LetJusticePrevail]

<modsnip> I think this case is actually pretty interesting on several levels, and there are also some truly innocent victims if you look a bit harder.

Sorry, should have prefaced my post with frustrated, thinking out loud and my opinion only.

 

[time]

After reading through this thread up to this post, that has been my question also. What would she gain by killing someone who was allegedly paying her $1,000/night?

My feelings regarding both the defendant and the victim are ambiguous. At the time of his death, both he and the defendant were engaged in illegal activities, and it does not appear (since there was surveillance video) that the drug was administered without his knowledge. It is not like someone slipped it into a drink and killed him. She may have realized after the fact that he was dead and that led to her inquiries regarding the consequences. Another thought is the surveillance video itself. If she had known of it aboard the yacht, would she have deliberately killed him? One would have to be completely out of their mind to do that.

The only ones who have my sympathy are his wife and children as the world now knows what the man they called husband and father was doing with his free time.



MOO

I agree more or less. I don't really know, but in dealing with my brother for many decades, I do know that for some the whole getting high and getting kicks becomes a ubiquitous part of their lives. My brother even talked about it like some badge of honor long after he quit doing most hard drugs, never really acknowledging the damage to himself and others. It's kind of an odd, this is my culture thing. I'm not explaining it well, but I think the woman reflects this. And, the guy reflects yet another cliché (rich smart guy, has good life and money, must play and be ever more uber risky to get his kicks and thinks he'll never lose it all or even get a slap on the wrist from the significant other, e.g., I can live two lives or how ever many and replay my teenage years of invincibility)... although both are true and exist enough to even call it a cliché . Who knows if she possibly did this for kicks, just though it was part of her milieu and an accepted casualty along the way, or if it was something in her mind before she even met this man. Could be all of these, at once.

 

[Ausgirl]

It's kind of an odd, this is my culture thing.

I get exactly what you're saying, there.

 

[danzn16]

I'm not sure how the guy is a "poor soul" when he intentionally sought out prostitutes and drugs, cheated on his family, etc. I think it's his responsibility and it was his doing. Do not get me wrong, it is a shame he died and I wish that he had not. But sometimes when you play with fire, you get burned. He was not a totally innocent person that was murdered like so many people are making him out to be just because he was a well to do Google glass worker. And I don't think it's quite so black and white whether AT is an evil murderer or not.

Blunt but JMO

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[HMSHood]

Illicit Drugs kill .....everyday.

I thought everyone knew how dangerous IV drugs were??? No???



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Blood borne diseases spread like HIV, Hepatitis, etc.