GUILTY CA - Gianni, 24, & Sal Belvedere, 22, Ilona Flint, 22, San Diego, 24 Dec 2013 - #1

[Curious Me]

Thank You, SDHELPS, for starting this thread. I've been sadly following this tragedy locally. I hope Salvatore pulls through, but the news article below says "Belvedere suffered brain damage in the shooting, according to broadcast reports." Ilona's gone now. It seems unreal. I don't know what could have happened in that area and especially at the holiday time. The brother still missing. It's been on my mind a lot. Thankfully, here I find other people upset about this news, too, and waiting to learn more.


Family and cops look for man missing since fatal shooting
http://www.cbs8.com/story/24310723/family-and-cops-look-for-man-missing-since-fatal-shooting

Does anyone know who the children belong to that were mentioned in the plea to missing Gianni? Does he have young children?

 

[Curious Me]

Praying for you, Salvatore.

https://www.facebook.com/salvatore.belvedere.92

 

[TravelingBug]

I actually listen to this all play out on the scanner as it happened.

The little snippet that has been played back on local media is only a piece of it, and obviously only just the piece what what Ilona first said and then what the dispatcher radioed, not the rest w/ the call room or the rest w/ the dispatcher and what was aired to officers, etc. or any of the part of their search for her and then the ultimate discovery of the vehicle and her and Salvatore.

My hunch, from what I've heard, from living here for decades, and from having been there twice this past week (both before and after the shootings) and driving through the lot yesterday, is that it may NOT have all happened where they were found in the car.

I do believe it happened there in the area around the (actual) mall part of Mission Valley, though.

Everything (or at least all I was able to hear) was VERY calm. She never stated there was anyone else who had been shot, and while she couldn't state exactly where in the mall she was (this, and other part are part of why I don't think it's where they were ultimately found) she was very clear on the fact that that's where she was.

What's most remarkable is that she is the one who died from her injuries, despite having been the one who had called and who was very calm and not at all sounding like she was seriously injured or in pain.

My suspicion is that she had possibly been shot (the one in her abdomen, I'm guessing) made the 911 call and then made her way to Salvatore and the car or he/they were trying to take her for help. And that the rest of the shots - or the fatal shots - may have happened after that.

It was quite some time into it before any information about Gianni having been at the mall also came out. In fact, there are still differing opinions on whether or not he really WAS at the mall - some are saying he actually hadn't been seen since the night prior about 10 miles away in Tierrasanta.

Officers responded immediately, though several things made it seem like this may turn into another 'false call' that there had been a number of lately. There had also been several other violence related incidents that were still being investigated that day involving shootings, guns, or at least shots fired (or mixes of the three)

The SDPD helicopter was before officers and they actually didn't think ANY shops in the mall were still open for quite some time. The lot was quite empty and there were no heat sources popping up on his infrared. It wasn't until he got down to the further (and less high traffic area) by Macy's that they were seeing any heat sources. The thing he had said he couldn't check and needed to be done from the ground was the parking structure that's on the south side of Macy's by the AMC theatre there.

The first officers were finding the same thing - no one and nothing. It was because of heat sources at the end nearer to In & Out (across a small surface street from the back Macy's lot called Camino del Este) that then steered officers to focus their search for someone down there. That's the east side of the mall where the car was ultimately found.

Since this is getting long I'll write more in a second post.

 

[Curious Me]

Wow, TravelingBug, you heard and were able to surmise a lot. Thank You so much for sharing. Ilona sounded calm on the 911 call? That does make it seem she was shot fatally after the call.

I know that underground parking garage, and the whole area. It's more shocking when you can picture the location. The car always looks parked oddly in the news videos. How do you think it got moved from another location? Your post is of great interest. Please continue to help shed light on this tragedy. Thank You again.

 

[Curious Me]

There's a big layout map of the Westfield Mission Valley Mall here. It makes it easier to follow where this occurred.


http://www.westfield.com/missionvalley/map

 

[TravelingBug]

Wow, TravelingBug, you heard and were able to surmise a lot. Thank You so much for sharing. Ilona sounded calm on the 911 call? That does make it seem she was shot fatally after the call.

I know that underground parking garage, and the whole area. It's more shocking when you can picture the location. The car always looks parked oddly in the news videos. How do you think it got moved from another location? Your post is of great interest. Please continue to help shed light on this tragedy. Thank You again.

There's more coming, I had a big long post for part #2 and my dumb browser just crashed! :banghead:

Give me a bit and I'll recreate it.

I, too, had been waiting for a missing poster to start this because after how things played out, I wanted to get it posted here. Almost did it in Crimes in the News the morning after it happened, but honestly thought they'd have someone and kept holding off...

But yes, she was EXTREMELY calm, which is part of why I think it's significant.

 

[TravelingBug]

I stopped writing and was trying to do pictures to explain the whole thing better but it's taking too long, so I'll post this and then finish my screencaps and map thing and then finish w/ the rest.

Where the car was found, Ilona SHOULD have been able to see enough to say where she was.

The In & Out sign and the Macy's signs, in particular, are very visible, never mind the freeway. And, to a lesser extent, the old Beningans which is now Broken Yolk. Their sign isn't quite as bit but visible pretty easily.

Had it been more in the corner by the Bed, Bath & Beyond and the old Seau's (the just now opened Wild Buffalo Bills or something like that) and across from the Staples, it's a lot darker. And on the more northeastern side near the corner of the mall lot there by Camino de La Reina but at the actual building corner near that part of the Bed, Bath and Beyond kind of by where the "easy divorce" van (old style grey van w/ mostly red/white lettering is - all locals know what I mean!) is usually near it's really quite dark and not as much is visible signage wise.

That's the area (especially w/ the very dark even during the daytime B of A at the corner) or the area right where you'd walk out from the mall between Seau's and BB&B where it's just dark and lower traffic even at busy times since many don't know that anything has opened in the long-time vacant Seau's and it runs behind the Michael's where it could be quite easy to be and not really know quite where you are or see anything very helpful signage wise.

More coming...

 

[TravelingBug]

My suspicion is that she or they were in the area over by that side entrance of BB&B (not the more visible/frequently used one) by the old Seau's when it happened, at least initially.

Had they been there earlier in the evening, or even just an hour or two earlier, actually shopping or whatever, they'd have been lucky to have parked that close.

And, more importantly, if they had really actually been at the mall shopping, and thus, presumably leaving (thus being in the car) as people are interpreting it, then the only place they could have just come from would be the Macy's. Nothing else was open.

Had they just left Macy's and gotten in the car, if it were where the car was found AND they had just been shopping, it makes no sense for Ilona to have not known where she was other than the mall, or at least not said that they had just left Macy's.

Plus, as I said in the earlier post, there are too many other things to have also been able to include as some sort of landmark where the car was found. If you had been shot and were desperately wanting officers and medical help, and you were coherent enough to have managed to call 911, would you not also realize that it was imperative to say SOMETHING about your surroundings if there were ANYTHING? A car colour? ANY building? Heck any building colour. A road? SOMETHING...I think the exclusion of that is the one thing that delayed LE response - they took it as IN the mall, which obviously she wasn't, or at least not when found.

And, had she really called from the car and it all happened right where they were found, then I can't imagine why she'd not have also said "WE" in the been shot or otherwise alerted them that there was a second victim (which, frankly, I have little doubt would have had even more officers there even fast - although ABLE the SDPD helicopter was there very quickly)

And again, she was very calm on the phone - there was really not a lot of urgency in her voice. Unless she was 'only' (so not the right word, but hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say) grazed by one, or hit somewhere that wouldn't either kill her or render her unable to do at least enough to call 911 as she did, and as calmly as she did, I can't see how she could really have been both shot in the head and the abdomen (though some now are saying chest) and also sitting next to someone else who had been shot multiple times and (theoretically) was even in worse shape than she was, yet didn't say ANY of that, or be far more urgent during the call. That seems...almost unbelievable.

By all accounts Ilona was very close to Salvatore as well. The families were close, they moved from the same area, and they had 8+ years of friendship with both brothers. One article has also said that they would take turns driving her two and from work and other places since she didn't have a car. Even assuming that nothing was going on between I & S (while she was engaged to G) would someone who had that depth of relationship with a loved one totally exclude him also being a victim? Or be as calm on the phone?

Heck, even if it was "only" her it seems like serious GSWs that were fatal before officers even got on scene - which was NOT long after her 911 call, would you expect someone to be so calm? None are those scenarios are ones I've ever heard on calls before at least. And had he been sitting beside her and also shot, unless they were instantaneously fatal, it'd seem like there would be SOME noise picked up - moaning, struggling to breathe, wailing...something.

That parking lot, right near where this happened, has this incredibly bizarre/lame bouncy “world” thing – which is hardly ever up and running but takes up a ridiculous amount of space in the southern side of the lot. And during Christmas time, there’s a Pinery tree lot place there.

The owner (or maybe just manager?) of the Pinery set up camps out there in an RV during Christmas time. He’s there w/ his wife and dogs the entire time. In fact, you see it (and then the flags and fence and corner of the tree lot part) in the background of several of the images and videos, including the ones where they're interviewing the tree lot guy.

He said that he was woken up by his dogs barking at the OFFICERS there and that when he looked he saw all the flashing lights. Had at least 4 shots been fired as close as they were to the RV, THAT would have startled any animal that I can imagine, let alone dogs that reacted to the lights of officers.

In addition, Macy's WAS the only place open. Which means people coming or going (since the shooting actually happened when there store had another 45 or so minutes of open time) would have been in that area. Also, the road that runs along the freeway - Camino del Rio North - is a pretty heavily used surface street, even in the middle of the night.

Had they really been shot right there, with at least four shots fired, there was a darn high risk of someone seeing or hearing something, especially since at least one thing was open still. But they also really should have been heard by the tree lot guy and his wife and dogs.

One shot is far easier to knock off to a car back firing...four? Not so much.

More shortly.

More on what I think is significant about all that in the next post (LOL)

 

[TravelingBug]

The fastest/easiest way for anyone in that area to get to the freeway is on Camino del Rio North. Actually, it's really the fastest/easiest way for anyone south of Friars to get to the freeway in that whole chunk of Mission Valley. Most of the streets north of Camino de la Reina, the street that runs behind the mall between that and the strip mall where the trolley station is - along the San Diego River - don't allow you to use Friars to get to a freeway very easily as most only have one direction access to Friars, or in some cases, no access as all, plus then the distance to the freeway in what's often slow Friars, which also has lights. So most who know the area, at least, head to Camino del Rio North via Camino del Este or Mission Center to get there b/c you can get right to the freeway.

You can go easy (turning left from the light at Camino del Este, where In & Out would be on your left and Broken Yolk & the mall on your right) when CdE t-bones into CdRN there at the light) and get on WB 8 within just a few feet really. And that's also highly used b/c it gets you onto 163 very easily, allowing you to avoid the typically messier other freeway light that's just down a bit if you turned right at that light instead. Turning onto CdRN from CdE also lets you get to Qualcomm Way as well as having another highway 8 access point just maybe a 1/4 mile further east - and you can go both EB and WB 8 from that one.

Turning right at that light (so WB) - onto CdRN - does let you get on the freeway by Mission Center Road - and IS advantageous in letting you do both EB and WB 8, but there's a couple of lights, plus all the traffic from that part of the mall - nearly always bad b/c it's both where the huge Target is, the AMC theatre, plus the only mall parking structure (vs just lots) plus it gets all the traffic coming from the W side of Mission Center and the other mess of strip malls over there - as well as being the cut through road over to the other mall (Fashion Valley - across the 163 for non locals - about 2 miles away from the Mission Valley mall)

All that to say that is NOT as appealing of an option for most people if they know the area unless they're really needing to go that way, so at least most locals take Camino del Este to CdRN and make the left (the quick EB choice) to access the freeway.

Trying to fire than many shots within earshot of an open business, pretty heavily travelled surface streets (for that area), is either really gutsy or really stupid. Way too high of a risk of getting seen, at least.

Had some of it - or at least whatever shot hit Ilona first prompting her to call 911 - happened more back by Bed Bath and Beyond, nearer to Camino de la Reina (heavily used during the day, but not nearly as much so at night once all that back there is closed) it's both far darker and far less visible to higher traffic areas.


What’s very interesting – but hasn’t been mentioned (in fact I don’t think many even know about the earlier incident) is that just over 2 months ago (Oct 19), we had shots fired at a spot VERY near where the car was found.

A male and female fired some shots (into the air the RP believed) and took off running. Officers swarmed to the In & Out/Broken Yolk corner area at Camino del Este and Camino del Rio North (the ones above)

Oddly, it happened about 1:45 am - so about half an hour LATER than this shooting. And obviously that wasn't a time when shops were open later period, let alone at 1 or 2 am, for Christmas shopping - nor a time when there would typically be more people out and about for any reason as opposed to Christmas time, when many more don't have to worry about work or school and are more likely to be out celebrating or something.

For some reason, though, tere had been quite a few people around that night so they had witnesses (and much of In & Out staff wise also heard or saw things) They never really did figure out what it was about and no one was hit (I don't think anyone was really even aimed at)

I’m not really saying I think they’re related, but…I guess I do have to say I think it's interesting. Perhaps even moreso that there were SO many witnesses to it, very specific descriptions and information, which also allowed them to get at least one or two of those connected to it (one may have been outstanding, and the gun was never recovered...or not that night)

Yet there are apparently next to know witnesses to this one? In the same location but at a higher traffic time? It makes me scratch my head...

What's important about all of the above to this, also, is that they said the suspect seemed to have headed toward the 8 freeway - meaning he used Camino del Rio North...from one point or another.

(More to come on the cars involved and Gianni)

 

[TravelingBug]

When Ilona and Salvatore were shot that night, they had three different descriptions of the possible vehicle that may be tied to it before landing back basically where it started.

Initially they had said a it was a darker silver or grey four door sedan a Toyota or a Honda. The car was very similar in description to one of the earlier incidents that day and there was clearly the intonation that perhaps the two were linked.

Then they started tossing out a white pickup that had been driving away, but didn’t expound much (though that matches mall security vehicle descriptions for all those in the area). Then suddenly the mention of it being a gold coloured 4 door sedan like a Corolla or Accord (still staunchly sticking to the Toyota or Honda brands)

At one point an officer followed one of possible interest (though it was really not that close to the mall) which seemed extremely random, especially since it was WAY too soon after the shooting (especially with essentially NO details). Then they talked about the white truck circling past again but again dropped mention of that.

But then it was quickly back to the dark grey 4 door that was seen leaving toward the 8.

 

[TravelingBug]

It was actually the newspaper that first started saying that Gianni was at the mall with Salvador and Ilona.

Even after the first reports giving the names of the victims came out, and people started talking more, if Gianni came up, it was in the context of not knowing where he was or just that Ilona was with her BF's brother.

Most of the references to the possibility that Gianni had also been at the mall only came (and still mostly only are coming) from people alluding back to the source being the U-T (our paper).

Most are still holding to him not being seen after earlier that night (on the 23rd - where as the shooting was technically the 24th) at his home in Tierrasanta. That's also what the missing poster (or at least the ones I have seen) all state.

Belvedere, who was last seen at approximately 10 p.m. on Dec. 23 in Tierrasanta, is wanted by police in connection with the Christmas Eve shooting of two people in a Mission Valley mall parking lot.

http://www.10news.com/news/sd-police-looking-for-missing-brother-of-shooting-victim12262013

And even what's being conveyed about that to the public as far as what his family seems to think was his last known location varies.

Family members said they don’t know why Salvatore Belvedere was at the Mission Valley mall with his brother's girlfriend on Tuesday.

That one - at least to me - intones that Salvatore and Ilona were there at the mall together, but not with Gianni.

It makes me wonder if that while they were all close and both brothers would take her places, that they didn't actually "do" things as just the two of them, thus making it (perhaps) more significant that they were together.

It also makes me wonder if they knew they were there together, or are only saying that post-shooting, because of the fact that they were obviously (at least in the car) together b/c they were found there.

And I'm curious how they know either way whether or not Gianni was also with them. I wish they'd say who was the last one who SAW Gianni and what he last said about his plans or his general demeanor.

Family members say Gianni may have also been at the mall at the time of the shooting and has not been seen since.

This obviously seems to state something else...

But if he was seen at the mall, who saw him? Just a witness? Surveillance?

They do NOT say that he may have been seen at the mall WITH them. Those could be two entirely different scenarios and could be significant (both if he was there and then whether he was or wasn't with Salvatore and Ilona)

And then that changes the timeline of when he was last seen. If he was last seen at the mall, then that was after the 10 pm in Tierrasanta thing. That's obviously also important.

 

[elmomom]

I am going to take a "wild guess" at what I think is going on... LE suspects that Gianni was the shooter and is on the run, and the family wants to believe that he is a victim and is also unaccounted for -
of course, we won't know what the truth is until he is found.

 

[rizzo0904]

Is there any chance she had a relationship with both brothers and it was a revenge/jealousy thing?

 

[TravelingBug]

If Salvatore and Ilona had been at the mall - whether with or without Gianni - there should be a significant amount of video, at least in the store(s). But even if they were just wandering in the mall there would still be some.

Since Macy's is the only thing that still would have been open, they long should have clarity on that as with all the shoplifting/armed robberies/etc. we've had during this Christmas season they've gotten video within minutes in nearly every case.

That adds to my belief that it's unlikely that at least the initial shot happened right where they were found. Because unless they had been somewhere other than Macy's, there should be very clear video of them leaving, plus Ilona then should have had that as a point of reference since it was RIGHT by the very visible Macy's signage.

Had they NOT just left Macy's, it would make it much more time consuming to scour all the surveillance video (which I'm confident they are doing regardless of what Macy's video shows - even if it's just them leaving) to see if they see anything happen with them in the mall, especially just prior.

One thing, that I hope they did, is talk to the transients in the area. There are number who 'camp' there kind of near the path along the San Diego River. They could be possible witnesses or at least ear witnesses.

It's surprising they apparently have not at least found Gianni's car, even if he isn't/wasn't with it. Both brothers apparently having Utah plates on their cars make them more distinct.

The fact that Salvatore is unlikely to ever recover - even if he lives they've said that he's sustained brain damage - is definitely going to make it far harder for officers to figure out what exactly transpired since it's highly unlikely he'll be able to communicate it if he does at least survive.

And I can't imagine how either family would feel if Gianni isn't located or if he's not found alive and ok (never mind if they were to find out he was somehow involved).

They are just so heartbreaking to hear. It's clear they all care deeply about one another - both families and seemingly all of the family members.

Unfortunately, no matter what transpires with locating Gianni, this family is still going to be enduring a tremendous amount of agony. It's only going to be a matter of the scope of that heartbreak I suspect.

Nothing will bring Ilona back.

And nothing will bring Salvatore fully back even if he survives.

I pray that I'm wrong and the heartbreak won't be compounded further for them and that they won't also be dealing with Gianni not coming back to them on top of it all.

 

[elmomom]

Is there any chance she had a relationship with both brothers and it was a revenge/jealousy thing?

At this point with the information we have it seems just as likely that Salvatore was taking her to the mall to Xmas shop for Gianni since she did not have her own transportation. Your scenario is possible as well, but for now I think we should treat Gianni as a victim (missing person) and not a perpetrator.

 

[elmomom]

Traveling Bug -
thank you for all your in depth posts. You have done an excellent job of informing us of all the angles involved in this case so far.

 

[TravelingBug]

I am going to take a "wild guess" at what I think is going on... LE suspects that Gianni was the shooter and is on the run, and the family wants to believe that he is a victim and is also unaccounted for -
of course, we won't know what the truth is until he is found.

Yes, despite the "don't jump to any conclusions" and "we don't know how he may be related or not but we need to locate him to determine that and whether he is a third victim or whatever" talk, that definitely seems to be the inference.

The discrepancy about Gianni's last known location and the time - or maybe, more accurately, the uncertainty about that and the shift from at night in Tierrasanta or possibly at the mall after that, isn't helping. Nor is the fact that they're not revealing things like who last DID know where he was.

It's also not helping that his car is very similar in description to the one deemed the likely suspect vehicle - with dark grey and dark green likely very hard to discern the difference of colour wise at 1 something am unless you were in a very well lit area - and not all of the lot is. I drove through it again last night, though not that late! LOL!

And while most of the public doesn't know that initially they were saying Toyota or Honda and one of those is what he drives, so it doesn't seem that the cars match brand or colour, they're close in both if you weren't right up next to the scene, and it's amazing how many cases or calls I've heard two different possible makes/models given initially, then it narrowed to one, only to have it wind up having been the other. I'm sure I'm not the only one that's seen that to be true. So none of that helps.

We've had a shockingly high string of numbers of stolen cars the last few months, and most have been recovered relatively quickly. With out of state plates on his car, unless Gianni is no longer with his car - or unless he were to go back to Utah - if he's in the area and with the car, it's very likely sooner rather than later he/it will probably be located, regardless of the level of association he has with the shootings - even if it's only as a completely innocent sibling of one.

I really can't blame the family for wanting to hope he's a victim also (that sounds horrible, but I'm sure you guys get what I mean...that they want him to be injured but alive somewhere, or being held captive, or heck, or maybe also killed...versus wanting to think there is anyway he could be involved.

I'm glad to see that regardless of what happened, it seems like the families are supporting one another. The show of force at the presser was heart-warming to see and I hope it keeps up. (But holy smokes does Ilona's mom look like she could practically be in her 20's! When she was saying that his parents need him, etc. I thought it was another sister, or maybe a sister of Ilona's!)

 

[TravelingBug]

Is there any chance she had a relationship with both brothers and it was a revenge/jealousy thing?

That's definitely a train of thought many people seem to be having, though the media, at least, are being very careful in how they are presenting things.

All things considered, for a case of this scope - double shooting, Christmas Eve day, at a mall (heck, that alone usually turns it into national news/Nancy Grace/Anderson Cooper type of thing) two relatively young adults, reported to be long-time friends with close families (and from what we've heard they seem to be good 'kids') plus having a third related individual missing, in a generally pretty safe city, and then in what's really a very safe part of the city (on the whole) - there's really NOT been that much talk about it.

We've had very little said by anyone outside of the family about any of them. One friend planning the vigil for tonight, and another sharing a little bit about how close they all are, but not much beyond that.

For that matter, there's really not even been the "how do you feel to know there was a shooting at the mall and did it impact your shopping" type of things with strangers. There was a bit that first day but little beyond that.

All of that has kept the speculation more limited to comments under articles since it's not happening 'on the table' really, which I'm sure Christmas is factoring in to to some extent.

There are definitely some extremely ugly things being said under some articles - and were from the beginning. Some saying he (even before "he" who was identified publicly and known to be the victim's brother) was justified in shooting someone who was with his girl. And others saying she deserved to die because she was with another guy and what not.

All the while there's NO source saying that Ilona and Salvatore were anything other than friends or anything other than just together shopping. Let alone that killing people because of cheating isn't justified even if that were what had been the true nature of Ilona and Salvatore's relationship.

Most seem to be thinking more along the lines of it seems unlikely that he's not somehow involved and that rushing to judgement isn't going to change anything, and that just finding him needs to be the focus.

 

[TravelingBug]

I suspect that if Salvatore and Gianni were NOT brothers this entire thing would be playing out differently - especially in the court of public opinion.

I think most people feel like it's just cruel to infer that something may have been going on with I & S and that this was payback of some sort by G, given what the families are going through.

But I think if there were no relationship between S & G, or especially at least if they weren't siblings and perhaps just friends, that the media would be pushing/investigating (publicly - I'm guessing they're doing so privately and being prudent and not saying so) whether this is a love triangle gone wrong thing.

I just think that the family angle (and possibly it even being Christmas week) is changing how it's being discussed.

To some extent, though, if Gianni's entirely unrelated, the fact that his fiancee and brother were just gunned down is causing his disappearance to get way more coverage than it probably would be otherwise.

A 20-something male, who just went missing 36 hours or so before Christmas, and nothing especially 'remarkable' about him wouldn't get this much attention most of the time. So assuming he's a victim, that connection is actually a good thing.

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

It's possible that Ilona wasn't "calm" but in shock - I have known people appear to be extremely calm in difficult situations but actually it is because shock has shut their systems down. That could also account for her not actually knowing where she was.