GUILTY CA - Gianni, 24, & Sal Belvedere, 22, Ilona Flint, 22, San Diego, 24 Dec 2013 - #1

[TravelingBug]

Thanks for your thoughts, madamehdivison.

Wow, if this was possibly a professional hit being done at that mall, I can't understand why choose such a public place. It's worth considering, of course, especially if Gianni is scared and on the run. His car is missing, so it seems to me it's less likely he was abducted, but we still know so little.

There's several considerations I'll mention.

Ilona may not have worked at the mall, or had a regular schedule. I don't think it's been confirmed she was working at one of the stores on a steady basis.

It seemed like a last minute shopping trip the way the family described it. I think it was Salvatore who borrowed his father's car. I'm not sure if he owned his own car, but he borrowed his Dad's that night. Sure, it's possible someone watched the house that they and the family lived in, and maybe someone was following them.

It doesn't seem like the shots were fired from much of a distance. Seems the shooter must've gone right up to the car window to shoot, almost like a personal thing more than a professional hit. A silencer on the gun seems likely though, which supports excuting a plan in a more public place and needing to get away undetected.

I'm staying up here on the fence confused until more facts come out. :fence:

You were far more succinct than I was! :blushing:

 

[TravelingBug]

Ah, bummer. After the last time I lost a long post, I now make sure to copy before submitting LOL.

What does RP mean? Yes, not much reason for media to report it.
Sometimes it's easier to hide in plain sight. If he was running because of fear, he could use a car charger, but then, maybe he's seen/heard enough shows/stories about how easy it is to trace a ping. So, if he is running because of fear from knowing who did it, wouldn't you think he'd go to the police? Do you think he was carjacked/kidnapped, or possibly killed also somewhere else?

I'm sure his uncle Otto means well, but I can see why LE wouldn't tell him anything, he seemed to want to talk freely about what he 'knows' or thinks.

Thank you for explaining. One time I was on the scanner forum and there was a thread that listed local SD scanner no.'s but lost my bookmark when my computer burned out on me. Can I get the link to SD that you listen to?
TIA
ETA, I found the link to SD dispatch.

Ha ha - I usually copy mine too! Or sometimes even write them in something that autosaves (or word!) but this time Firefox just crashed on me :floorlaugh:

RP = reporting party / reporting person

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what I think about Gianni (or the rest of it, really, for that matter). Though as I just wrote in a post in reply to someone else (but after your post) I agree that if he were just truly in fear he'd have contacted LE by now.

I do still think it's quite possible that the initial gunshot - which prompted Ilona to call 911 - may not have been where the rest of it took place and they were ultimately found. I think it was in the mall area, but not necessarily there. Maybe even just further away in the lot in one of the areas I mentioned in an earlier post. To be honest, part of me still wonders if the first shot was really even in the car because I can't see her not mentioning being with someone (or in a car, for that matter).

I don't think this was random or by a someone not (at least partly) known to at least one of the three. I guess I could slightly see it being someone who had an issue w/ someone in one of their extended families, but even that I'm not convinced of, and really lean more toward some degree of tie between one of the three and the shooter.

And unless there were multiple perps, I have a hard time coming up with too many scenarios in which something also happened to Gianni.

I don't see him having been too close if he were really at the mall, because if he had seen something happen to the others, I just can't see him not calling 911. Even if Gianni was there and didn't see it, that'd have been awfully quick of a perp to manage to pull off the killings, getaway, and then track down Gianni. And I also don't see how the perp could have gotten from them to him to both pull off something on Gianni and not have been seen, since that'd mean moving throughout the area which surely would have been seen on video. Plus, we'd have an unclaimed car having been at the mall, since unless there were two perps and he were carjacked, logistically that can't work since we know Gianni's car still hasn't been found. In addition, if he had been carjacked or even taken from his car somehow somewhere else, I really do think the car would have been found by now, especially given the out of state plates making it stand out more.

After all, unless they were looking for ransom from the family, I also don't see why someone would have simply taken Gianni, yet killed the other two in a very public place. Similarly, I think if something had happened to him it'd be odd that he'd not have been found. Because again, they obviously weren't trying to keep Ilona and Salvatore hidden and not found by LE, so what would be the motive to keep Gianni from being found?

The one way I see it possible is if he were lured out saying something had happened to them, and then someone got him.

But again, I have a hard time with that b/c why kill him and keep him hidden and not the others? Or why take him somewhere and keep him captive without having a 'goal' that surely would have been made known by now?

While I guess it's possible THEY went to the mall having been told something had already happened to Gianni, but even that I can't make that work without a lot of holes either.

I don't know.... :scared:

Wish we'd get a smidge more from LE...or better yet, find Gianni and have some real resolution!

It definitely seems like Andre has been told to put a lid on it (not sure if by LE, family, or finally getting a clue) I'm thinking the (surely) well-intentioned uncle will be next!

 

[Curious Me]

You were far more succinct than I was! :blushing:

And I was intrigued by your interesting observations and thoughts that you kindly shared in the last couple of posts. You bring a lot to this case.

Oh, ABLE overhead, I didn't know or give thought to that. Is there a chance whoever was the shooter they were parked nearby and got right on the freeway?

Insomnia tonight, but I think it's time . . . . .fftobed:

 

[rizzo0904]

Mob hit? Does the family owe money to someone? Did they piss off the wrong person?

 

[Marg from Oz]

[QUOTE=TravelingBug;10090002
"But again, I have a hard time with that b/c why kill him and keep him hidden and not the others? Or why take him somewhere and keep him captive without having a 'goal' that surely would have been made known by now? "
______________________________________________________________________________

This is something I can't understand. Why kill two people in a public place and then kidnap and remove the car of the other one?
If Gianni wasn't missing it would be another matter.

I still think there are only 2 scenarios.
1. He has been kidnapped and possibly killed and car and body disposed of or,
2. He is the killer and has taken off to who knows where?
I know America is a big place, but is it easy to travel without police checking you if you do all the right things?
Here in Australia you have to travel on main highways and freeways to get from one state to another with small country towns along the way.

 

[TravelingBug]

And I was intrigued by your interesting observations and thoughts that you kindly shared in the last couple of posts. You bring a lot to this case.

Oh, ABLE overhead, I didn't know or give thought to that. Is there a chance whoever was the shooter they were parked nearby and got right on the freeway?

Insomnia tonight, but I think it's time . . . . .fftobed:

:blushing:

Yeah, absolutely could have gotten away before ABLE got there.

He was there very quickly, but that part of the lot (especially where the car was found) has VERY quick freeway access!

I do wonder, though, how he could have gotten away too quickly since there are supposedly at least a few witnesses, and reportedly of more than just the car - since we've got the supposed tan pants thing (and even it being a male) on the possible suspect.

And I'd think the same thing would also rule out all the shots being fired from a vehicle, especially since then that would probably mean the suspect would have to have moved the car to shoot both of them it would seem.

When they had ABLE try to check out a possible suspect car w/ an officer who was behind it, it did make me wonder if there were some additional details on the possible suspect/car because while it's VERY quick to get on the 8 there, it would have been quickest for the person to turn left (east) onto Camino del Rio North (from Camino del Este OR even from the CdRN side of the lot) which would mean the person would have gotten on 8 WEST the fastest.

But the car they went to look at would have had to have gone 8 EAST. And while they could do that easily, as well, it wouldn't be quite as quick.

I really have no clue where that one car being stopped really originated from other than perhaps the officer just saw a car and since not a ton of folks are out at that hour, took the risk and just stopped him. It seemed awfully far-fetched to me unless they had some additional information, but it didn't seem that way based on the scanner transmissions, so I'm not convinced.

Personally I am not convinced that the possible suspect car is necessarily really connected. I think if it was, we'd have more details on it and we'd have had more suspect description details. The one thing that makes me think maybe it really is connected is that if it were an unrelated individual I'd think they'd have contacted LE and said they had been in the area and were leaving and proving themselves unrelated or something. Although, perhaps LE has some good leads or additional info and just purposely isn't letting on that perhaps that's not the car of interest.

It just seems like if someone saw enough to guess the suspect's height and see the pant colour, I can't see how there'd not be more on the vehicle, as well. Unless some of that came from video of the person leaving somewhere prior (if they had also been in the mall maybe). But even then I'd think we'd have more on the suspect himself description wise.

I don't know...this case is odd and I can't seem to stop mulling it over!

I guess maybe I feel that moreseo than I have with most others because it's not only extremely local to me, but I also heard it play out.

 

[TravelingBug]

Mob hit? Does the family owe money to someone? Did they piss off the wrong person?

Something along those lines (it being a bigger family tied thing) is the only scenario under which I can see Gianni also being gone.

But even then, why not take out the sisters who are surely more vulnerable?

And then I'd think there would be NO way that the family would be speaking out publicly AND being out in public at the vigils, etc.

If they had reason to think that even in the slightest, I would think that they would all be essentially in hiding and with some sort of security even.

With them thinking Gianni might be hiding in fear of having seen something or whatever, I'd really think then they'd be worried about themselves, as well - because heck, technically Gianni could reach out to them without the public (and possible suspect) knowing, which would put them in equal danger (whether if it was a bigger crime/family thing or purely just if he had been a witness of the other two being killed).

 

[TravelingBug]

This is something I can't understand. Why kill two people in a public place and then kidnap and remove the car of the other one?
If Gianni wasn't missing it would be another matter.[/B]

I still think there are only 2 scenarios.
1. He has been kidnapped and possibly killed and car and body disposed of or,
2. He is the killer and has taken off to who knows where?
I know America is a big place, but is it easy to travel without police checking you if you do all the right things?
Here in Australia you have to travel on main highways and freeways to get from one state to another with small country towns along the way.

Completely agree with that first part!

And just can't see how they'd STILL not have found something if he were killed somewhere since it'd not just be a body but also a car.

As far as him taking off (heck, even if he were only fleeing in fear, which obviously I've said in other posts why I don't buy that) yeah, I do think he could. In fact, had he driven straight through, he could have been IN Utah before him being missing even first was made public.

That's the one reason I think there's possibility he could be in Utah (regardless of why). Christmas week - really either end of it (and even through the weekend after NYE) SO many people travel to family that it'd be fairly easy to get yourself in the midst of other holiday road-trippers and not necessarily be detected.

Even moreso since he would have had a pretty good jumpstart on absolutely everyone. And even then it was Christmas Eve and while news was covering it quite extensively, that's NOT a day many are really watching the news or even paying much attention online. They're decorating, cooking, shopping, wrapping, hanging out, traveling, or going to church for the most part.

And that's especially true since it wouldn't have even been till the evening news that even most who might be watching the news would probably have even seen it - and by that point it'd be almost 18 hours afterward and so odds of him having still been in the area were minimal, even if he hadn't left immediately afterward. And even if families were playing the license plate or alphabet games in the car, odds of a Utah plate on a car w/ no other real noticeable factors (no rack on it, unusual colour, unusual detailing, etc.) having been remembered seem very low. A Hawaii plate, a Florida plate, or even just somewhere less 'local' to the more western states maybe, but Utah wouldn't be as memorable just in the flow of traffic.

Although he'd stand out a bit more doing a long drive being a younger guy driving alone, which just isn't as common, I still doubt that would be overcome by the fact that the public just didn't know until he was probably far too far gone (if he really left)

Now if it were PARKED or ditched somewhere and not moving, that's an entirely different thing, IMO. Especially once the story broke more and it became something San Diegans really knew about.

However, even with the above and him feasibly he'd almost certainly have passed through one of the checkpoints we have on our freeways. If he'd gone north he'd have hit it the Temecula area one on 15 or the Camp Pendelton one on 5, and if he'd gone east on 8 or 10 he'd have hit them there also (can't remember where those each are technically). He'd hit them again crossing state borders (or at least taking either 8 or 10 east into Arizona) I haven't done the drive to Utah (or even Vegas) recently enough, but I'd suspect there are additional ones there, as well.

Even if the checkpoints hadn't been manned, I'm nearly certain they DO record plates, and I would think that they would pull footage there, as well, especially once they found out that he had such close ties to Utah.

I'd think particularly on the 8 checkpoint - given where the mall is, where he lived, and where his family's restaurant was - all of which would make that a very familiar route, I'd suspect (as well as being slightly less obvious as the first thought route wise to go to Utah, yet being totally feasible at the same time) and on the 15 checkpoint near Temecula (since that would be the more expected route to get to Utah - since most go through Vegas and St George and onward)

I'm sure they've been told to watch for him/the car since then, as well, but I can't imagine they're still watching film for when they are unmanned at this point. I can't imagine if he were really hiding out that he'd have left long before now because now his car/picture/info are out there and it'd be much harder to not be detected.

That said, even though I know some Utah papers have carried a few articles, and I'm guessing some news stories, if he DID get to Utah I'd think it'd be quite easy to hide in plain sight. Non-descript car, Utah plates, and a story that nearly certainly hasn't gotten NEARLY the attention it did hear since the killings happened here and it's been awhile since they left Utah.

But I also think we'd hear more about LE making sure the story was carried heavily and BOLs were given in other states - or at least Utah - if they had reason to think he had crossed through (or at least in his own vehicle)

 

[FlamingoLady]

CA Newport Beach - UID Male, Help Requested - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Recently posted thread. I'm wondering if this is related.

 

[FlamingoLady]

http://lakeforest-ca.patch.com/grou...ks-help-identifying-missing-man-lakeforest-ca

This report states that the body was "so decomposed that they can not determine age or race." This body was found on Dec 24th so I doubt it is GB. Decomposition would not be that advanced after only a matter of a day or so, right? Even in water?

 

[kimmypie1]

Ok here's another angle I don't think has been discussed: Sal was driving his Dad's car that night. Do we know how often he does this? If this was a one time thing, then the possibility of mistaken identity is pretty high. The windows were pretty dark. Not suggesting his Dad is into anything bad.

 

[SDHELPS]

Ok here's another angle I don't think has been discussed: Sal was driving his Dad's car that night. Do we know how often he does this? If this was a one time thing, then the possibility of mistaken identity is pretty high. The windows were pretty dark. Not suggesting his Dad is into anything bad.

Great angle to look at kimmypie1. I know we can't sleuth other family members but there are MSM reports regarding why the family moved from UT and family business'. I wish I had the time to follow here in WS more but must say TravelingBug and Curious Me and many others are helping to keep it alive! :loveyou:

My heart goes out to the families and hopefully GB will be found soon in order to give this family peace....

 

[TravelingBug]

ETA - I'm camping atm. I'm on my phone. Power and service is minimal. I have tried to explain myself properly, given my lack of resources. No service and battery dying.

Forgot to say this when I wrote earlier...

I don't feel half as bad that I keep thinking about this whole case and mulling it over in my mind since you're doing the same thing...while camping and probably dodging critters or such at the same time! ha ha :floorlaugh:

 

[Curious Me]

Ok here's another angle I don't think has been discussed: Sal was driving his Dad's car that night. Do we know how often he does this? If this was a one time thing, then the possibility of mistaken identity is pretty high. The windows were pretty dark. Not suggesting his Dad is into anything bad.

I did wonder if the parents were too distraught and completely devastated to attend the public vigil held the day after Salvatore's private funeral. They did not attend the vigil on Jan. 1st.

Not to cast doubt in the parent's time of severe grief, I'll admit I did have a slight thought that maybe they didn't feel safe enough to attend the vigil. They've stayed in the background and let other family members make statements. I actually sympathize and understand their actions totally.

But we're sleuthers, so we ask questions.

It's just that - if the family is saying Gianni was there but didn't do it, and this wasn't a robbery, then why would Gianni be hiding from some fluke stranger?

Is somebody after the family? Enemies in the restaurant business or something?

This happened two weeks ago tonight. Where has Gianni been? I expected we'd have more answers by now. This sure doesn't feel like your typical mall crime, but then again there were those four guys that shot that husband to take his car.

Gianni did it, or a fluke stranger for no sane reason did it, or a professional hit, or what????

 

[TravelingBug]

Ok, this is probably going to sound strange, and even TravelingBug mentioned how much Andre was being interviewed. I wonder if he was so infatuated with Ilona (one of his interviews he said he wished he would have told her he loved her more), that I was getting vibes that maybe if he couldn't have her nobody could, maybe he even thought she was also in love with Salvatore....or he thought that was Gianni in the car with her.

I don't know how I missed seeing this post earlier (maybe it's called not sleeping and reading/posting at like 3 am or whatever it was - ha ha)...

But I am so glad someone else was at least struck a little that aside from being very chatty and eager to talk, it seemed, that perhaps there was something underlying all of that.

Not that I think he's really tied to it in anyway, or at least not most days (ha ha) but I definitely thought there might some unrequited love there or something (which I also thought may be clouding what he was saying...)

 

[Curious Me]

Andre and Otto had good intentions most likely, but between them came much confusion for the case. Sorry, but neither seemed in the position to be making that many statements.

To me, Andre seems harmless, just hungry for a spotlight, like he finally knew someone famous or something, JMO.

 

[TravelingBug]

Ok here's another angle I don't think has been discussed: Sal was driving his Dad's car that night. Do we know how often he does this? If this was a one time thing, then the possibility of mistaken identity is pretty high. The windows were pretty dark. Not suggesting his Dad is into anything bad.

You know, that is an interesting thought...

Especially since that brings up a logistical question possibly as well...

It sounded like S, G, and I all lived together. From what I was reading it didn't sound like that was with the parents (or did I miss that entirely?)

How is it he ended up with his dad's car that night? Or, heck, is that even accurate that it was dad's car? (Who sourced that one, anyone remember? Given some of our source issues, well...)

Assuming that was true and it was his dad's car, where was Salvatore's car then? Why was he using his dad's?

That would seem a pain or else something you'd do for a very specific reason, or at least if you don't live under the same roof and aren't playing a frequent came of musical cars...

That would make the whole night even more strange really, first you've got two people who some of the family don't even quite know what they were doing together, then you've got those same two in a car that may not belong to the person driving it.

The odds of those two things just seem...unlikely. Not that I thought it was random anyway, but I think that would probably remove any doubt I'd had.

I'd love to know how their day played out prior to all of this and the purported mall trip or whatever led them to be there in the lot at 1 am.

Had they been doing something prior? Together? Something that would warrant swapping cars?

I should go hunting for who said it was his dad's car...because the source could factor in to how much weight I (personally) might give to it.

 

[TravelingBug]

http://lakeforest-ca.patch.com/grou...ks-help-identifying-missing-man-lakeforest-ca

This report states that the body was "so decomposed that they can not determine age or race." This body was found on Dec 24th so I doubt it is GB. Decomposition would not be that advanced after only a matter of a day or so, right? Even in water?

That is quite the find!

As you pointed out in your post on the actual thread, there sure as heck are a whole lot of things that would fit if it weren't for the degree of decomposition.

Though, admittedly (I'm totally squeamish and so) I don't know a whole lot about decomposition because, well...just not my thing! But I do think you're right that especially in under 24 hours that it wouldn't seem like it could possibly be him if the body was truly that decomposed (especially since our water is SO cold here!)

But I'd hope they'd be checking all UIDs found that were even close to the profile, wouldn't they?

Man...sure could seem plausible though, if it weren't for that...

 

[TravelingBug]

Great angle to look at kimmypie1. I know we can't sleuth other family members but there are MSM reports regarding why the family moved from UT and family business'. I wish I had the time to follow here in WS more but must say TravelingBug and Curious Me and many others are helping to keep it alive! :loveyou:

My heart goes out to the families and hopefully GB will be found soon in order to give this family peace....

I'm very afraid we're on the fringe of this completely falling out of the media.

I truly think had it not been for the vigils having been spaced out (which I truthfully think has been in part due to the holidays) that we might have not heard much into the early part of the week.

Now that we have nothing coming up, I wouldn't be surprised if this is sort of "it" indefinitely.

Unless there's some significant information that comes out b/c LE wants public assistance and has reason to think someone(s) might have more information if THEY release more information, or if they release video or screen caps of surveillance, I'm afraid it'll just die off.

Or unless the family starts speaking out, which I highly doubt since they haven't other than the presser asking for Gianni to get in contact. The rest has really been restricted to Andre, the uncle in Utah, and the one aunt who was here for the vigil (and presumably the service) I think remaining public interest/sympathy will also die out.

I think at this point, though, it'd really take it being something semi-substantial from LE or hearing from more immediate family to get it back in the news, or at least not buried (which is really rather useless to most of the general public, and more only for people following it more closely...)

That's all so unfortunate if it does.

Obviously first and foremost for the family who may never get answers, as a result, but also for the San Diegans who would like to know if there's a murderer stalking mall parking lots randomly trying to kill people or just certain people - and if so, who falls into "certain." Heck, or even if there's 'just' a local family who at least better be watching out b/c perhaps it's only them and those close to them being targeted.

 

[TravelingBug]

The fact that they're doing nothing search wise at all makes me wonder what LE knows.

Obviously it'd be hard to know where to start, but if Gianni had truly been at the mall, I'd think at least searching the general Mission Valley area would be worth it...as well as the canyons around Tierrasanta.

And we've had a number of suicides by car lately - oddly, nearly all out in East County. At least 3 blatant ones out there and a few other questionable ones. In a few cases someone saw or heard crashes and they were called in, one was b/c they were looking b/c the person had threatened to drive off a particular road (and did), and then a car found later that they really aren't sure what the deal was with.

I would think it would be awfully easy to at least have ABLE and Astrea do some good aerial searching over a few most plausible areas. I listen a lot and really haven't heard anything other than the norm from them, and even with what are undercover things (it's amazing how much of that actually airs) and stuff is vague, they still nearly always regularly report their location, so I'm not sure that even some general areas have really been scoured that way (and what they can find with FLIR, etc. is amazing so it'd seem worth it)

The mall and part of the Tierrasanta area would all be SDPD so ABLE - and I think ABLE (by and large) is amazing, one TFO in particular, but really all of them are really very good. The one just is SO persistent, so specific, so clearly loves what he does and loves to help, and so detailed for those listening on the scanner (ha ha).

But much of the area around Tierrasanta, and where their family seemed to live (and the restaurant was, etc.) is largely SDSO jurisdiction. And, while Astrea is good, and I'm confident that they have skilled TFOs as well, SDSO let's just say Briarwood and the 54 about a week ago. :silenced:

In other words, if I needed a helicopter finding me or finding evidence of anything, there would be NO question. ABLE (and preferably the one particular TFO)

Although given it's a murder investigation under SDPD's jurisdiction because of where it happened, maybe it'd be SDPD (so ABLE) all the way anyway? Not that Astrea wouldn't help or SDSO if something was noticed in their area, but...?

Unfortunately, we have had a lot of fog, which has lowered how much flight time either agency is able to have their air support up, but it'd seem like during down time (which Astrea seems to have more of and seems to more routinely move between areas and always reports his arrival and departure from above various communities - part of why it's pretty easy to know where he, especially, is most of the time) that it'd be good even just for training to use it as a reason to scan canyons or possible dump sites or to use all the nifty technology they have.

I'd hope that the no real starting point thing wouldn't at least mean having done some aerial at least over the Valley and near Tierrasanta at least.

But then, if they're not searching and no indications of that are being picked up at all, I wonder if that leans more toward them thinking that Gianni is alive somewhere or is somewhere that searching wouldn't really help with (not that there might not be undercover stuff going on wherever that might be)