GUILTY CA - Gianni, 24, & Sal Belvedere, 22, Ilona Flint, 22, San Diego, 24 Dec 2013 - #1

[eya]

That is quite the find!

As you pointed out in your post on the actual thread, there sure as heck are a whole lot of things that would fit if it weren't for the degree of decomposition.

Though, admittedly (I'm totally squeamish and so) I don't know a whole lot about decomposition because, well...just not my thing! But I do think you're right that especially in under 24 hours that it wouldn't seem like it could possibly be him if the body was truly that decomposed (especially since our water is SO cold here!)

But I'd hope they'd be checking all UIDs found that were even close to the profile, wouldn't they?

Man...sure could seem plausible though, if it weren't for that...

ugh, I hate that I thought of this but what if someone did something to hasten the decomp/ hide the identity such as acid or fire. stranger things have happened. shudder

 

[Curious Me]

Update on local news, interview with the brother's uncle.

http://kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_8905.shtml

G was at the mall that night, they have confirmed that.
They took two cars to the mall, S picked up I in his Dad's car, I think.
G took another car, they don't know why.
They were doing some last minute shopping.
Uncle believes G witnessed it and took off, doesn't believe he is involved.

BBM about the borrowed car.

I tried to find how we found out Sal borrowed his Dad's car. I knew I wasn't the only one that thought that. I'm pretty sure I heard it on the news.

Now, it could've been an Uncle Otto statement. I figure someone in the family must be telling Uncle what occurred and he's just sharing it from Utah.

Remember, there's also a statement that Salvatore had just gotten back from being in Oregon. For how long was he in Oregon? Did he drive his own car? How long had he been back in San Diego?

What I'm struggling with is the idea that Sal might have been gone awhile, not even around Ilona or Gianni, and not around to be followed by a hit person.

I'm somewhat irked and frustrated by the lack of firm facts as to why they were at the mall and driving separate/one borrowed cars. Still don't know if they were holiday shopping either.

Patience is needed. It's been two weeks.

 

[Advocate1]

Ok here's another angle I don't think has been discussed: Sal was driving his Dad's car that night. Do we know how often he does this? If this was a one time thing, then the possibility of mistaken identity is pretty high. The windows were pretty dark. Not suggesting his Dad is into anything bad.

Can't rule mistaken identity out.
Something I wonder is if either brother was known to be armed with a gun? Did either have a carrying permit? I find the timing and place the crime accord (while they were driving) hard to match with a premeditated crime. In the picture the victims vehicle appears to have crashed into another vehicle at a slow speed. This could of happened as they tried to flee the scene too. Since Gianni lived with the victims Im having trouble with him being involved and choosing to kill them the ways it went down. Only scenarios I can come up with is that he was there and saw his brother and fiance engage in some type of inappropriate behavior like kissing. But this would mean that Gianni carried a gun on him which we don't know. I want think of a premeditated motive for Gianni and how this went down. I don't know but I am inclined to believe the brothers were involved in some type of illegal activities. Depending on what those were and how deep of trouble they were in I could understand Gianni going into hiding.

 

[Advocate1]

Also if they have a suspests description and vehicle then you would think they would know if the suspect took Gianni hostage. Someone saw the suspect clear enough to say he was wearing tan pants then they would of seen another person taken against their will. You would think anyways.
It just don't look good for Gianni.

 

[Curious Me]

In the beginning it seemed possible Gianni was at the mall and in a rage shot them, I then had to imagine he would drive someplace and put a bullet in his head horrified with himself. I have doubts now hearing how close the brothers were and all the family's statements about them being good kids.

Advocate1, I agree, information on whether any of them owned a gun, or somebody in the family has a gun missing, would help a great deal.

This is like a puzzle with missing pieces. Where's Gianni?

 

[Sharyne]

Ha ha - I usually copy mine too! Or sometimes even write them in something that autosaves (or word!) but this time Firefox just crashed on me :floorlaugh:

RP = reporting party / reporting person

Thank you, I should have figured that out.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what I think about Gianni (or the rest of it, really, for that matter). Though as I just wrote in a post in reply to someone else (but after your post) I agree that if he were just truly in fear he'd have contacted LE by now.

I was thinking the same thing.

I do still think it's quite possible that the initial gunshot - which prompted Ilona to call 911 - may not have been where the rest of it took place and they were ultimately found. I think it was in the mall area, but not necessarily there. Maybe even just further away in the lot in one of the areas I mentioned in an earlier post. To be honest, part of me still wonders if the first shot was really even in the car because I can't see her not mentioning being with someone (or in a car, for that matter).

Yes, makes sense. And maybe after the first shot only in the abdomen, I think one could still be conscious and able to talk.

I don't think this was random or by a someone not (at least partly) known to at least one of the three. I guess I could slightly see it being someone who had an issue w/ someone in one of their extended families, but even that I'm not convinced of, and really lean more toward some degree of tie between one of the three and the shooter.

And unless there were multiple perps, I have a hard time coming up with too many scenarios in which something also happened to Gianni.

I totally agree.

I don't see him having been too close if he were really at the mall, because if he had seen something happen to the others, I just can't see him not calling 911. Even if Gianni was there and didn't see it, that'd have been awfully quick of a perp to manage to pull off the killings, getaway, and then track down Gianni. And I also don't see how the perp could have gotten from them to him to both pull off something on Gianni and not have been seen, since that'd mean moving throughout the area which surely would have been seen on video. Plus, we'd have an unclaimed car having been at the mall, since unless there were two perps and he were carjacked, logistically that can't work since we know Gianni's car still hasn't been found. In addition, if he had been carjacked or even taken from his car somehow somewhere else, I really do think the car would have been found by now, especially given the out of state plates making it stand out more.

After all, unless they were looking for ransom from the family, I also don't see why someone would have simply taken Gianni, yet killed the other two in a very public place. Similarly, I think if something had happened to him it'd be odd that he'd not have been found. Because again, they obviously weren't trying to keep Ilona and Salvatore hidden and not found by LE, so what would be the motive to keep Gianni from being found?

The one way I see it possible is if he were lured out saying something had happened to them, and then someone got him.

But again, I have a hard time with that b/c why kill him and keep him hidden and not the others? Or why take him somewhere and keep him captive without having a 'goal' that surely would have been made known by now?

While I guess it's possible THEY went to the mall having been told something had already happened to Gianni, but even that I can't make that work without a lot of holes either.

I don't know.... :scared:

Wish we'd get a smidge more from LE...or better yet, find Gianni and have some real resolution!

And most likely that will not happen.

It definitely seems like Andre has been told to put a lid on it (not sure if by LE, family, or finally getting a clue) I'm thinking the (surely) well-intentioned uncle will be next!

My replies to above in red.

So, now it seems like it comes down to Occam's Razor.
Other than serial killers, most homicides are for money or love/jealousy/revenge. As you've said before, how many times do people say "they would never do anything like that". Gianni may even have decided that he couldn't live with himself any longer IF he murdered them and went some place where he could ditch his car (river or lake) and killed himself in the car.

 

[Sharyne]

BBM about the borrowed car.

I tried to find how we found out Sal borrowed his Dad's car. I knew I wasn't the only one that thought that. I'm pretty sure I heard it on the news.

Now, it could've been an Uncle Otto statement. I figure someone in the family must be telling Uncle what occurred and he's just sharing it from Utah.

Remember, there's also a statement that Salvatore had just gotten back from being in Oregon. For how long was he in Oregon? Did he drive his own car? How long had he been back in San Diego?

What I'm struggling with is the idea that Sal might have been gone awhile, not even around Ilona or Gianni, and not around to be followed by a hit person.

I'm somewhat irked and frustrated by the lack of firm facts as to why they were at the mall and driving separate/one borrowed cars. Still don't know if they were holiday shopping either.

Patience is needed. It's been two weeks.

Hmmm, what's that saying "absence makes the heart grow fonder"?
I'm leaning more and more toward a love triangle.

I've been reading these crime forums for several years now, and it seems more and more the police are withholding more information. And the fact that they are not asking for the public's help again, makes me think they have something they're working on quietly.

GRRR...the same thing in the McStay's murders. I must say in the last few years, I have lost a lot of respect for Gore and SDSO because of how they've handled missing and murder cases.

 

[Advocate1]

As for Gianni, “He was there. They know he was there,” Belvedere told the TV station. “They have an idea that he saw everything and he was there.”

http://m.utsandiego.com/news/2014/Jan/02/tp-family-of-slain-man-plead-for-brothers-return/

How do they know that Gianni was there and believe he saw everything? Was he ID's by someone or what evidence leads them to believe this? We are not getting that part piece of information and it seems LE doesnt want that info out there. Why? If Gianni is a suspect and say LE has him ID'd as the shooter. What would be the benefit to LE withholding that info and playing down stuff? What is the benefit in not naming him as a suspect if LE knows he was involved? In having trouble understanding how LE could know for a fact Gianni was there and believe he saw everything but not know if he is a suspect or a victim. That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Curious Me]

Gianni would find it very difficult to stay in hiding for two weeks without being detected. He'd have to be carrying cash and ditch all traceable devices. Would anyone help him hide? It sure doesn't make sense that anyone would still be holding him captive. Disregarding what I think, and going with what I feel, then I think he could be dead.

I say check the desert, maybe Anza Borrego wind caves. I have no idea why I'm saying that. He might've headed for a remote spot he went to often.
http://www.anzaborrego.net/Travel/AnzaBorrego/post/2013/01/07/Exploring-The-Slot-and-The-Wind-Caves

 

[Curious Me]

Hmmm, what's that saying "absence makes the heart grow fonder"?
I'm leaning more and more toward a love triangle.

I've been reading these crime forums for several years now, and it seems more and more the police are withholding more information. And the fact that they are not asking for the public's help again, makes me think they have something they're working on quietly.

GRRR...the same thing in the McStay's murders. I must say in the last few years, I have lost a lot of respect for Gore and SDSO because of how they've handled missing and murder cases.

Oh yeah, I hear you about the way things have been around here. Some people blame Bonnie. The control over the investigations are so ridged and absolute, and almost shady when I remember the Shaknai/Zahou case.

MOO
:cow:

 

[Sharyne]

Oh yeah, I hear you about the way things have been around here. Some people blame Bonnie. The control over the investigations are so ridged and absolute, and almost shady when I remember the Shaknai/Zahou case.

MOO
:cow:

I actually read my first forum after a local kidnapping/murder. First trial I was ever able to follow. On reading UT online, followed a link to a discussion about it back in 2002, followed links to various forums and was hooked.

IMHO, it started with Pfingst and all his shenanigans, thought Dumanis would be good, but, alas no improvement. The PD was complaining about losing all the good cops (after being trained by them) said it was because they got paid more elsewhere. But I can't help but believe it was because the "good" cops didn't like having to go against their better judgment when superiors told them to do things "their" way. Their investigations into McStays and claiming suicide for Rebecca were absolutely corrupt imho.

Sorry for the off topic post, but I can't help but wonder if they are doing this investigation the same way.

 

[TravelingBug]

ugh, I hate that I thought of this but what if someone did something to hasten the decomp/ hide the identity such as acid or fire. stranger things have happened. shudder

Eww
:noooo:

 

[TravelingBug]

I did wonder if the parents were too distraught and completely devastated to attend the public vigil held the day after Salvatore's private funeral. They did not attend the vigil on Jan. 1st.

Not to cast doubt in the parent's time of severe grief, I'll admit I did have a slight thought that maybe they didn't feel safe enough to attend the vigil. They've stayed in the background and let other family members make statements. I actually sympathize and understand their actions totally.

But we're sleuthers, so we ask questions.

It's just that - if the family is saying Gianni was there but didn't do it, and this wasn't a robbery, then why would Gianni be hiding from some fluke stranger?

Is somebody after the family? Enemies in the restaurant business or something?

This happened two weeks ago tonight. Where has Gianni been? I expected we'd have more answers by now. This sure doesn't feel like your typical mall crime, but then again there were those four guys that shot that husband to take his car.

Gianni did it, or a fluke stranger for no sane reason did it, or a professional hit, or what????

All very valid questions... I've got a number of media contacts, maybe I'll see if they can try to at least find out what's up with the parents (who I'm sure at devastated - and worried)

 

[TravelingBug]

BBM about the borrowed car.

I tried to find how we found out Sal borrowed his Dad's car. I knew I wasn't the only one that thought that. I'm pretty sure I heard it on the news.

Now, it could've been an Uncle Otto statement. I figure someone in the family must be telling Uncle what occurred and he's just sharing it from Utah.

Remember, there's also a statement that Salvatore had just gotten back from being in Oregon. For how long was he in Oregon? Did he drive his own car? How long had he been back in San Diego?

What I'm struggling with is the idea that Sal might have been gone awhile, not even around Ilona or Gianni, and not around to be followed by a hit person.

I'm somewhat irked and frustrated by the lack of firm facts as to why they were at the mall and driving separate/one borrowed cars. Still don't know if they were holiday shopping either.

Patience is needed. It's been two weeks.

Sorry - totally did NOT mean to infer you (or anyone else) were the source, I meant which person tied to the case said it (Andre or Otto seem the only choices unless LE had and I really don't think that was the case)

So, so, sorry! :blushing:

 

[TravelingBug]

Can't rule mistaken identity out.
Something I wonder is if either brother was known to be armed with a gun? Did either have a carrying permit? I find the timing and place the crime accord (while they were driving) hard to match with a premeditated crime. In the picture the victims vehicle appears to have crashed into another vehicle at a slow speed. This could of happened as they tried to flee the scene too. Since Gianni lived with the victims Im having trouble with him being involved and choosing to kill them the ways it went down. Only scenarios I can come up with is that he was there and saw his brother and fiance engage in some type of inappropriate behavior like kissing. But this would mean that Gianni carried a gun on him which we don't know. I want think of a premeditated motive for Gianni and how this went down. I don't know but I am inclined to believe the brothers were involved in some type of illegal activities. Depending on what those were and how deep of trouble they were in I could understand Gianni going into hiding.

The only thing that we've heard gun wise is from the aunt who spoke the day of the vigil. She was adamant that they didn't have guns, didn't use guns, almost that they didn't even like them basically. So if we go by her word, then no.

But...we've had a lot of inaccurate info from the few who are speaking out, and I'm too tired to go look, but I THINK the aunt lives in Utah like the uncle, which means they've been living in another state for 8-ish years, so hard to know if she'd really have accurate info on that.

 

[TravelingBug]

Also if they have a suspests description and vehicle then you would think they would know if the suspect took Gianni hostage. Someone saw the suspect clear enough to say he was wearing tan pants then they would of seen another person taken against their will. You would think anyways.
It just don't look good for Gianni.

Yup...

 

[TravelingBug]

In the beginning it seemed possible Gianni was at the mall and in a rage shot them, I then had to imagine he would drive someplace and put a bullet in his head horrified with himself. I have doubts now hearing how close the brothers were and all the family's statements about them being good kids.

Advocate1, I agree, information on whether any of them owned a gun, or somebody in the family has a gun missing, would help a great deal.

This is like a puzzle with missing pieces. Where's Gianni?

I think we're missing like 80% of the pieces :scared:

And the above does give me some pause (though again, we see that in most cases, so...?) BUT then that also makes them being targeted seem very unlikely, b/c unless it was a hit because of something family related, then they shouldn't have been into anything that would have placed them in danger (at least as consequences of something) -assuming family depiction is accurate.

But then how in the world could it be random and get ALL of them, even though they clearly couldn't (IMO) all have been together when it happened (b/c then how did Gianni's car disappear or how did an unclaimed car not arise if he ditched his car and took Gianni's.

I seriously hope they have a TON of info we don't know, assuming they ever do find Gianni one way or the other, because unless there's something really damning that has absolutely not been insinuated, it sure doesn't seem likely they'd have enough to arrest someone for murder, let alone get someone convicted for it. With really no scenario seeming to not have some pretty substantial possible holes to be filled to probably sway people away from all the things that could seem to make everything a cause for doubt.

Assuming we don't really get much more than this for awhile, I think it'll be interesting to see if they ever end up changing Gianni's status (based on whatever they know) either to suspect or clearing him altogether as a presumed victim. That would pick things up again if they decided to strategically release it.

 

[Strangeworld]

Just caught up on this case. Very strange!

Re Ilana's 911 call - I haven't heard any of it, but I will say that head injuries (including gun shot) can sometimes involve an isolated segment of the brain that may impact on the person's abilities (particularly emotional/cognitive/physical) without affecting other functions. TravelingBug, I'd love to know what her emotional levels were like in the call - did she sound flat, non-emotive? Confusion is common, so even if she seemed calm, she may have been struggling with comprehension, memory issues, etc. Then as the brain bleed progressed, she would have deteriorated and more functions would have been affected.

I keep jumping between potential scenarios - I do hope Gianni isn't responsible, but the flipside of that is maybe it was a professional hit and he was taken and hurt somewhere else. After reading the last few pages of posts, I can't help but wonder if there is something bigger going on, and this is some sort of payback, warning.

Here are two more way out (!!) possibilities - seems like everything's worth considering right now with such little reporting.

-could there have been a ransom, and only certain family members are aware (not the ones speaking out)?
-could Gianni be caught up in something, and the FBI, etc have him somewhere safe, but they are keeping this quiet to try to apprehend the shooter/s?

Both these scenarios could explain the lack of new info, the withdrawal of info, and confusion amongst family members.

I warned you they were way out!!!

 

[SDHELPS]

BBM about the borrowed car.

I tried to find how we found out Sal borrowed his Dad's car. I knew I wasn't the only one that thought that. I'm pretty sure I heard it on the news.

Now, it could've been an Uncle Otto statement. I figure someone in the family must be telling Uncle what occurred and he's just sharing it from Utah.Remember, there's also a statement that Salvatore had just gotten back from being in Oregon. For how long was he in Oregon? Did he drive his own car? How long had he been back in San Diego?

What I'm struggling with is the idea that Sal might have been gone awhile, not even around Ilona or Gianni, and not around to be followed by a hit person.

I'm somewhat irked and frustrated by the lack of firm facts as to why they were at the mall and driving separate/one borrowed cars. Still don't know if they were holiday shopping either.

Patience is needed. It's been two weeks.

BBM It was Uncle Otto who stated that Sal borrowed his brother's (being Sal's father) car. It was both in print and video but dang if I can find it :blushing:

 

[SDHELPS]

Can't rule mistaken identity out.
Something I wonder is if either brother was known to be armed with a gun? Did either have a carrying permit? I find the timing and place the crime accord (while they were driving) hard to match with a premeditated crime. In the picture the victims vehicle appears to have crashed into another vehicle at a slow speed. This could of happened as they tried to flee the scene too. Since Gianni lived with the victims Im having trouble with him being involved and choosing to kill them the ways it went down. Only scenarios I can come up with is that he was there and saw his brother and fiance engage in some type of inappropriate behavior like kissing. But this would mean that Gianni carried a gun on him which we don't know. I want think of a premeditated motive for Gianni and how this went down. I don't know but I am inclined to believe the brothers were involved in some type of illegal activities. Depending on what those were and how deep of trouble they were in I could understand Gianni going into hiding.

BBM This view intrigues me the most. Going back to how often did Sal borrow his fathers car. And yes, why would GB carry on such a brazen act in a public place when I'm sure there were more secluded opportunities. Of course if it was done in a fit of jealous rage that would change that theory but IMO that was not the case.

This case will get quite fast if nothing else comes up (as TravelingBug mentioned). I did not see anything this morning on the news and very little last night. Here is an article out of Utah that is most recent.

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/loc...cle_1eee2fc3-5cbf-5762-82ea-b765ac30b400.html