CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #10

[Funky funky]

Was it overkill, though? Statistically, per the most recent FBI report, we actually are more likely to be killed by a stranger, than someone we know.

And to me, the blows seemed in keeping with simply making certain someone is dead. The method of killing is not uncommon if the killer doesn't want the weapon to link back to him/her. That hammer in the grave, for all we know, was a red herring.

Of course, I can't know for certain. I wasn't there. But, I think arguments could be made either way. And I just don't see where this remarkable rage in Chase was supposed to have come from.

In addition, we don't have any evidence that Chase had this kind of rage, ever. There are plenty of records of him involved with theft, but not one, where he was involved in a bar brawl, incidence of domestic violence, or that he had a short temper even.

Where is the evidence of Chase being a particularly rageful person, or that he ever used violence to resolve an issue?

Poor Gianni, a child, suffered 7 blows to the head. If that isn’t overkill, I don’t now what is! IMO

 

[Penny Parker]

Hey - it took me from last night & this morning - about 560 plus posts - to catch up with you all. Some of these quotes are from the previous thread.



That is because Day 26 will be on Monday, March 4th.... I believe it is Day 25 that you are looking for.



All of Tortoise's post has convinced me of his guilt....




Okay - made me look this up. Per my Timeline - there were a total of 14 calls between them on 2/4. Joey called/texted CM 10 times; CM to Joey 4 times.

link: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/mcstay-family-comprehensive-timeline.285143/



Actually he called Union bank twice at about noon after getting into QB. And then again at 1pm.
At 12:15pm Joey calls Bank/accountant, after that 2 calls to CM (12:28pm 6 min & 12:52pm 1 min). After the calls to CM he calls Union bank at 1pm. At 1:01pm Joey calls or texts CM - 1 min. Then nothing until 3:03pm to CM. See link above for info.

Just to be clear regarding the calls between CM and Joey on 2/4-
The linked timeline has quoted testimony that appears to show 27 total calls between them. Could you clarify?

 

[JMarsh]

Analogy:

If I go to a restaurant that advertises foie gras as their specialty, and when I order, they deliver tofu and green beans instead, am I going to go back to that restaurant if I'm hungry for foie gras?

The state promised a foie gras prosecution and delivered tofu and green beans. Why trust them then? Why keep believing that underneath the tofu there exists more?

 

[JMarsh]

Poor Gianni, a child, suffered 7 blows to the head. If that isn’t overkill, I don’t now what is! IMO

It certainly is horrible, but is it an indication of rage or of someone who cared so little about the victims, was in fact indifferent to them, that this method of killing didn't bother them?

You are obviously a compassionate person. I would suggest who ever did this, probably wasn't.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The victims were killed in a over kill way so to me that points to somebody who knew them.

We know he hated Summer and he didn’t seem impressed by how she was raising the kids either. He couldn’t hide his disdain for Summer even when it would of been better to shut up and Play nice to the cops about what a wonderful woman Summer was.

This is also why I am not convinced Chase even raped her. Could he of lowered himself to such a level with a women he despised so much?!

Yes imo. CM has no boundaries of how far he would stoop to be in full control, in order to degrade the woman he hated.

Rape isnt about sex, its about having power, and full control over another human being that is totally helpless to stop them.

I do think he sexually assaulted her.

Imo

 

[JMarsh]

It is easy to let our emotions over rule our critical minds in cases like this. But it is actually not uncommon for murders to be quite brutal, and the killer to have no emotional attachment, whatsoever to the victims.

BTK knew none of his victims. This only comes to mind because of the recent special on him. But I could name dozens of very brutal murders, where the killer was actually quite detached.

 

[JMarsh]

Yes imo. CM has no boundaries of how far he would stoop to be in full control, in order to degrade the woman he hated.

Rape isnt about sex, its about having power, and full control over another human being that is totally helpless to stop them.

I do think he sexually assaulted her.

Imo

Other than your assumption that Chase is the killer here, what evidence is there that Chase had no boundaries.

 

[JMarsh]

I agree, I think Joey would definitely have given Chase a chance to explain. Which explains why he continued on his way to RC to meet with Chase instead of turning around and just going directly to his bank and police to report the alleged fraud.

It's once he gets to RC that his actions puzzle me. They allegedly had a two hour lunch, which I believe LE stated somewhere that they verified there actually was a lunch meeting (though I know this is still up for debate). Kind of strange if you are angry with and plan to fire someone. So maybe they worked things out? But if they worked things out then what was Chase's motive to murder him? Chase is an experienced and savvy con, he isn't going to kill his cash cow unless he has to. Chase stood to make a lot more money with Joey alive. And both he and Joey had a sweet deal with MSM doing a bulk of the actual work lol, why mess that up over a few thousand dollars?

If Joey did fire Chase, and possibly asked for a storage key back, I would imagine that they left on prickly terms with each other. It is almost certain that Joey made it back to Fallbrook later that afternoon. Why, on his way back home, didn't he call his bank to report the fraud and protect his account? Why didn't he call the police? Ok, maybe he just didn't have the heart to report his friend. But Joey had at least a 1 1/2 hour drive home, why didn't he call anyone to tell them about this huge event that was going to significantly affect his business? Joey was always on his phone...no call to vent to Mom? Dad? McGyver? One of his other many friends? No call to Dan..."lock it all down, Chase is stealing!" No call to vent to/warn SUMMER? No call to MSM, "hey, just want to give you a heads up...". The inaction and lack of communication with anyone is puzzling to me. Anyone but Chase that is, he called HIM several times.

And Chase allowing Joey to leave RC at all, how could he have known whether or not Joey had reported him? Told family/friends about what happened? Would Chase risk going all the way to Fallbrook to murder the family not knowing what Joey might have said to anyone else?

IF Chase did murder the family I just don't think it was over the finances, I really think something else happened.

All IMO

ETA: Sorry this is so long!!! Didn't realize I was typing that much, too much wine again haha!

That's a beautiful elegant theory, but please support even one idea here with evidence presented. Just one piece of evidence

 

[Longtimenoc]

What is fascinating now is the gameplay

Just like in Pistorius, the defence has the advantage of knowing the true timeline and of hearing the complete state case.

Now comes the job of fitting an alternative narrative to the evidence.

Chase knows key details and problems in the state case. e.g

- Summer probably was raped at knifepoint (just not at the gravesite)
- It would be too messy to do the murder in some of the rooms - only the killer knows exactly how it was done
- What Dan & Chase did to try to keep financial with the business after 4 Feb

The challenge is to retrofit Dan to all of this. But there is a huge amount of opportunity to paint a version of the state case that doesn't work and then replace it with a better one. IMO the defence won't have real evidence that Dan did it. It's all about trying to create that sliver of doubt

Also the fact that it's a death penalty case sets the bar much higher. Many would oppose his conviction even if he were caught red handed.

 

[Force Ten]

Analogy:

If I go to a restaurant that advertises foie gras as their specialty, and when I order, they deliver tofu and green beans instead, am I going to go back to that restaurant if I'm hungry for foie gras?

The state promised a foie gras prosecution and delivered tofu and green beans. Why trust them then? Why keep believing that underneath the tofu there exists more?

I'm pretty satisfied with what has been presented so far. Still, I wish there was more. Still waiting for the video of Chase climbing the mountain, testimony regarding the tailpipe, more testimony about DNA. Maybe those things are not needed after all because the prosecution sealed the deal. Imo, Cathy Jarvis and her testimony will be Chase Merritt's albatross.

 

[JMarsh]

It is actually not acceptable, if you believe that evidence matters, to embellish with a theory that is in no way supported by any actual evidence.

What we have is evidence that on Thursday, Feb. 4, Joey opened his QB account, apparently the Custom account, looked at it. Then as he drove he called his bank. Bank conversations are often recorded-it is odd that no recording appears to exist. So one can rationally assume that whatever Joey discussed with his bank, did not alarm the person he was speaking to.

Phone records have Joey going to this meeting and returning home, uneventfully.

Where is the proof in any of this (other than the the family vanished either that night or the next morning) that anything transpired between Joey and Chase, other than basic business?

We may never know for certain, but just because two events are in sequence, does not mean one caused the other. And all indications are that Joey wasn't worried about his bank accounts at all.

Where is the evidence? We can make stuff up all day long, but if we don't hold ourselves to some standard of evidentiary support for what we put forward, it's all just fiction-at best.

And this is the real world. You have to be able to point to some proof.

 

[JMarsh]

I'm thinking JM did fire CM but did not report the theft because it would have left CM without a job, possible jail time (?), and CM's kids with no support from dad.
JMO

Great theory. And the evidence to support this is....???? Please, just one piece of evidence. One thing that has been verified that supports this?

 

[Force Ten]

Hey - it took me from last night & this morning - about 560 plus posts - to catch up with you all. Some of these quotes are from the previous thread.



That is because Day 26 will be on Monday, March 4th.... I believe it is Day 25 that you are looking for.



All of Tortoise's post has convinced me of his guilt....




Okay - made me look this up. Per my Timeline - there were a total of 14 calls between them on 2/4. Joey called/texted CM 10 times; CM to Joey 4 times.

link: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/mcstay-family-comprehensive-timeline.285143/



Actually he called Union bank twice at about noon after getting into QB. And then again at 1pm.
At 12:15pm Joey calls Bank/accountant, after that 2 calls to CM (12:28pm 6 min & 12:52pm 1 min). After the calls to CM he calls Union bank at 1pm. At 1:01pm Joey calls or texts CM - 1 min. Then nothing until 3:03pm to CM. See link above for info.

The record I have goes back three months. Joseph never called the bank before that I recall. I will recheck but I'm almost positive this was not a common practice.

 

[JMarsh]

As you suggested I listened to the video and I believe the discrepancy seen in the 8:28 call means JM’s phone made one continuous call to CM’s phone carriers network and was billed as one call by JM’s carrier. But CM’s phone carrier interprets the incoming call as two calls, one from JM’s phone going through the system network to CM’s phone, when not answered the system then reroutes the call to VM, which resides on the network server located elsewhere, since the call has been rerouted to a different location the system then interprets and counts the transfer as a 2nd call for billing purposes. This is probably done by the carrier in order to create more revenue almost like double billing because even if a call last only a few seconds it’s rounded up to the nearest minute.

The only anomalies I could see from that time on my cell phone bill were a few incoming calls showing the incoming number as being unavailable.

Please be aware that my interpretation of the phone record is based upon speculation and I have no special insight regarding cell phone records.

Or maybe phone records just aren't all that accurate.

 

[JMarsh]

quoting asyousay: “
“This is also why I am not convinced Chase even raped her. Could he of lowered himself to such a level with a women he despised so much?”

Yes I believe he could have. Men can deffo rape women they dislike in an act of control, hatred and anger. JMO.

Or maybe Chase is innocent and this family was killed by people who liked to kill, and rape was just part of that. This family may have been kept somewhere else. There could be another crime scene.

 

[Niner]

But what evidence convinced you?

Have you read her posts & the timeline she has put together? I'd have to go back & collect all Tortoise's posts to explain "how" and "what" evidence convinced me.

Just to be clear regarding the calls between CM and Joey on 2/4-
The linked timeline has quoted testimony that appears to show 27 total calls between them. Could you clarify?

Sorry - I'm not following about "linked timeline" - do you have a link? Or is it the one I posted? A bit confused....

 

[Tortoise]

In addition, we don't have any evidence that Chase had this kind of rage, ever.

rsbm

It's irrelevant to the jury, as it should be. Unless we grew up with him or were living under the same roof as him we're not likely to know.

Murder convictions do not depend on prior violent acts. Imagine if we could only convict if there was a history of violence.

This kind of murder, most likely well-planned in advance, requires in my view the cold and callous detachment of a psychopath. These individuals and sociopaths usually wear a mask of respectability, they learn how to effect superficial charm, but it is the ones closest who will see their lies and lack of empathy and quite often they are the last to ever admit it because they think it reflects on them or the family. They are the enablers that often surround such evil murderers.

All IMO

 

[asyousay]

Or maybe Chase is innocent and this family was killed by people who liked to kill, and rape was just part of that. This family may have been kept somewhere else. There could be another crime scene.

So you are saying somebody who was not Chase wrote out a Cheque to Chase?

Then Chase being set up obviously by a random Person then cashed a cheque he should have no idea about.


How does your logic tie this together?

 

[Longtimenoc]

It is actually not acceptable, if you believe that evidence matters, to embellish with a theory that is in no way supported by any actual evidence.

What we have is evidence that on Thursday, Feb. 4, Joey opened his QB account, apparently the Custom account, looked at it. Then as he drove he called his bank. Bank conversations are often recorded-it is odd that no recording appears to exist. So one can rationally assume that whatever Joey discussed with his bank, did not alarm the person he was speaking to.

Phone records have Joey going to this meeting and returning home, uneventfully.

Where is the proof in any of this (other than the the family vanished either that night or the next morning) that anything transpired between Joey and Chase, other than basic business?

We may never know for certain, but just because two events are in sequence, does not mean one caused the other. And all indications are that Joey wasn't worried about his bank accounts at all.

Where is the evidence? We can make stuff up all day long, but if we don't hold ourselves to some standard of evidentiary support for what we put forward, it's all just fiction-at best.

And this is the real world. You have to be able to point to some proof.

The evidence was nothing explosive I'll admit, but pretty basic.

Merritt cashed checks which he printed and signed himself during the time of the murders. $20 thousand dollars was removed from the Mcstay account and used in casinos. A reasonable person would say that this was stealing not borrowing. To say that this was the time to begin new lax accounting measures is ludicrous and defies logic.

The phone records have accurately traced his movements for days. This is real science, not junk science. He has been caught at the home and at the gravesites at critical times.

So we know Merritt was in the Mcstay home that crucial evening. We know the family died there by the evidence found in the graves. And we know what hurt them and put them there, a sledge that Merritt tossed in.

And of course we have video of his truck. Still open for debate by some but I think we are going to see evidence that it is certainly his truck.

When the jury sees the CNN video they will hear Merritts bs and efforts to deflect. Certainly not hard evidence of his guilt but another disturbing glimpse into Merritts efforts to deflect guilt.

So there is plenty of solid evidence here to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[MichaelCorleone]

<snip>
That is because Day 26 will be on Monday, March 4th.... I believe it is Day 25 that you are looking for.

No - day 25 was the hearing and was audio only. Day 26 was this past Thursday when they had the camera back in the courtroom and it still hasn’t been uploaded to YouTube.