CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #15

[Karinna]

I'm not of fan of intervening much, but if I had seen an adult spanking a four year old every five minutes for two hours, I would have reported him. I'm not against spanking in general. I think if a small child runs into the street, there is a case to be made that a swift "spank" -read, on a fleshy surface, like the bottom- that makes a child stop before doing it again (or some other situation where they absolutely cannot disobey the parent without coming into danger- is okay. However, I think it goes without saying, that "hitting" -in other words, in a place or hard enough to cause damage, isn't proper, because the goal is to stop the child and protect him/her from real danger, such as a car.

There's nothing at all appropriate or positive about the repeated spanking or hitting of a child -especially a four year old! That is just beating him/her. Not to say that a child certainly couldn't overcome such. Many of us have overcome that and worse. We go on to forgive and to love even. Some children survive horrific abuse and, indeed, ultimately love and care for the abusive parent. That doesn't make it okay, though.

It seems strange to even be discussing this. It simple astonishes me that anyone hearing Chase's interview couldn't have come away with the idea that he's a monster. He preys on people, abuses children and animals, and steals from the very people who help him, all the while neglecting his own family. I know, I know: Where is the proof that he abuses animals? I'm quite inclined to believe it, as it is consistent with the other criminality and reports of violent behavior -hitting walls, children, etc.

I continue to follow the discussion here and watch/read regarding the trial testimony/evidence, but the totality of evidence fits together to point to a very guilty Chase Merritt. And Chase's stories and the anecdotal comments of various people who have come into contact with him over the years are the surrounding and supportive pieces of the main puzzle.

All my opinion.

Agree, he is a horrible & abusive person,

 

[fridaybaker]

I will admit... I didn't try that hard to follow it Dr. Perlin's, I listened, but didn't even take that many notes because without the visual, it was pointless lol

This is what I learned today...

Christine Nash from Bode Technology...

They got some dna on 4 items to put it simply. It was degraded, I listened earlier today, but IIRC she said it was consistent with DNA that was exposed to the elements. When asked about them being contaminated with people processing the scene, she explained that if the evidence was stored properly, they would expect to see 'more' DNA, or more complete DNA profiles. (all paraphrasing, because honestly, I'm not listening to all of that again if I don't have to haha)

When the samples were sent to them, CODIS search was requested, but they (the defense) decided to forego that. Bode lab themselves do not have access to CODIS, but they can request it from another lab before they start processing the evidence, that other lab has to come and access the evidence or something first as well. It makes the process longer, no clue how much longer, but it delays the process. April 9, 2018 skip on the CODIS... her report was done June 18, 2018.

In regards to the above... I don't recall all the pre-trial stuff, when it was supposed to start, when delays came about, I could go back and look in the old threads, but does anyone know .. in April 2018, when did they think the trial was going to be? ​

Beatriz Pujols - Cybergenetics

She ran all the computer stuff lol There is way more to it, anyone that is interested can read it for themselves. Her work was reviewed by 2 other analysts, and then Dr. Perlin. Her report is dated January 11, 2019.

Dr. Mark Perlin - Cybergenetics

I mentioned it in an earlier post, but will mention it again, 90% of Cybergenetics work is with the prosecution, other 10% is defense, post conviction, family testing for paternity. The software TrueAllele is in crime labs, and of course, in that case it's 100% for the prosecution.

THE RESULTS:
I am not going to give the numbers, they were somewhat confusing, especially without the visuals.

They went through the exclusionary statistics for the following.
E15 - electrical cord ( I believe this is the one around neck/head based on the photo I have)
A3 - left bra cup - was in grave
E11 - white cord - was around Joey's waste area I believe
A25 - strap
When McGee asked him "does this mean he is excluded?" Perlin's answer was 'no, it means there is a statistical support to him being excluded'. (I believe this is wording they use with the probabilistic genotyping)

They were able to make DNA CODIS profiles for some of the evidence, which can be used to do a keyboard search in CODIS. If they were to get hits, they can then go back and check the probability like they did with the other known samples earlier with the McStay's/Merritt's DNA.

There was a weak association between E09 (right bra cup) and E01 (white cord). E01 didn't have as much information as E09, that is why it's considered weak. This must the be the 'crossover' that was referred to in that article the other day. Those processing the scene... if one processed one and another processed the other... how did it get on both? I can't recall at the moment if Jones did all the swabbing of evidence himself or not, but he may be the only one that touched both, IF they are the same profile and IF it was contaminated during or after the discovery JMO

Cross exam of Dr. Perlin is not available yet.

Thank you Missy! Hard to believe the jury is supposed to make a lot of this. Sometimes when I think of this type of testimony, I really have to wonder if it's serious. I imagine a PT or DT sitting around, having a pizza, in front of a few, basic paragraphs on a page. Then they have a few "scientific-type books" lying around, and take turns finding random, long, inscrutable, words in the books, and inserting them at various points in the paragraphs. When they're done with the pizza, they shut the box, chuck it in the trash can, put the books back on the shelf, and put the finished paragraphs in the briefcase, ready for trial.

So, at trial we have to consider "probablistic genotyping", "MVacing", "Restriction fragment length polymorphism", and "CpG dinucleotide", then decide if the "methylation at the promoter region is associated with gene silencing".

Seriously. I also wonder if, after hours of listening to it, the jurors don't say the heck with it and toss a coin.

 

[Karinna]

Thank you Missy! Hard to believe the jury is supposed to make a lot of this. Sometimes when I think of this type of testimony, I really have to wonder if it's serious. I imagine a PT or DT sitting around, having a pizza, in front of a few, basic paragraphs on a page. Then they have a few "scientific-type books" lying around, and take turns finding random, long, inscrutable, words in the books, and inserting them at various points in the paragraphs. When they're done with the pizza, they shut the box, chuck it in the trash can, put the books back on the shelf, and put the finished paragraphs in the briefcase, ready for trial.

So, at trial we have to consider "probablistic genotyping", "MVacing", "Restriction fragment length polymorphism", and "CpG dinucleotide", then decide if the "methylation at the promoter region is associated with gene silencing".

Seriously. I also wonder if, after hours of listening to it, the jurors don't say the heck with it and toss a coin.

I agree the scientific stuff can be overwhelming for people that don't understand it. I had trouble trying to make anything much out of it, so imagine some of the jurors feel the same?

 

[missy1974]

Thank you Missy! Hard to believe the jury is supposed to make a lot of this. Sometimes when I think of this type of testimony, I really have to wonder if it's serious. I imagine a PT or DT sitting around, having a pizza, in front of a few, basic paragraphs on a page. Then they have a few "scientific-type books" lying around, and take turns finding random, long, inscrutable, words in the books, and inserting them at various points in the paragraphs. When they're done with the pizza, they shut the box, chuck it in the trash can, put the books back on the shelf, and put the finished paragraphs in the briefcase, ready for trial.

So, at trial we have to consider "probablistic genotyping", "MVacing", "Restriction fragment length polymorphism", and "CpG dinucleotide", then decide if the "methylation at the promoter region is associated with gene silencing".

Seriously. I also wonder if, after hours of listening to it, the jurors don't say the heck with it and toss a coin.

Although it's hard to listen to testimony, since the technology is mainly used for the prosecution, I wonder if the view would be different if it was the State that called Cybergenetics to tie evidence in the grave to Merritt rather than the Defense using it to exclude Merritt. I also find it interesting that they would have had no idea the results of testing those items when they asked for it to be done. That testing could have done him in IMO.

I am fascinated by the technology myself, was doing a bit of reading earlier. Cybergenetics was contracted to look at unidentified DNA for 9/11 victims.

I also think that if there is a possibility that degraded DNA could be found after being buried for 3 1/2 years, that should be embraced (even if we don't get to know the owner of the DNA in this case) and I hope that it is used further in other cases where it could possibly identify a perp.

All JMO

 

[katydid23]

But the problem with it being degraded is can we trust its accuracy?

 

[katydid23]

As for the tests doing Chase in—-perhaps chase was very confident he hadn’t left any DNA in the graves ?

 

[fridaybaker]

I agree the scientific stuff can be overwhelming for people that don't understand it. I had trouble trying to make anything much out of it, so imagine some of the jurors feel the same?

Karinna, I agree. At some point, there will have to be IQ testing and educational level considered before seating a jury. Really, I do believe some of it rises to college level material. Strange times, these.

 

[missy1974]

But the problem with it being degraded is can we trust its accuracy?

I think if you asked Dr. Perlin that, he would say yes and I don't think he needs this case to promote his products, but that's JMO. Maybe we will hear more on cross.

 

[missy1974]

As for the tests doing Chase in—-perhaps chase was very confident he hadn’t left any DNA in the graves ?

If he did it... how could he be that confident knowing his DNA was found in the Trooper? Even if he wore gloves while committing the murders... and wore gloves while driving the Trooper... if he left DNA in one spot, what would make him so confident he didn't leave it in another?

 

[katydid23]

If he did it... how could he be that confident knowing his DNA was found in the Trooper? Even if he wore gloves while committing the murders... and wore gloves while driving the Trooper... if he left DNA in one spot, what would make him so confident he didn't leave it in another?

Because he may have been wearing one of those welder hazmat type suits when he did the murders. But he couldn’t do do in public driving the Trooper

 

[katydid23]

I think if you asked Dr. Perlin that, he would say yes and I don't think he needs this case to promote his products, but that's JMO. Maybe we will hear more on cross.

I didn’t hear any mention, although I bailed early, of why there is no DNA from Summer on her bra, but there is someone else’s that withstood the elements. Why couldn’t this method pick up her degraded DNA?

 

[missy1974]

Because he may have been wearing one of those welder hazmat type suits when he did the murders. But he couldn’t do do in public driving the Trooper

I don't even know how to respond to that lol other than I disagree and don't think that's what happened. But JMO.

I didn’t hear any mention, although I bailed early, of why there is no DNA from Summer on her bra, but there is someone else’s that withstood the elements. Why couldn’t this method pick up her degraded DNA?

Without the visuals, it was really hard to completely understand, the curve, the bell curve, the minus this and that, and although it gave results for all of them, Merritt's DNA comparison was highlighted. I expect the prosecution to ask, and we may or may not get an answer. I think some of it goes back to other testimony, the amount of force to tie a knot in an electrical cord, cutting a bra, tying a strap into a knot, etc., where they would expect to find DNA. Part of the reason why Suzanna Ryan even suggested further testing is because Jones' initial tests indicated low levels of DNA, so it's not like DNA was only detected from the defense testing. If there are ways and it can be done, why not do it, like they did? It's unfortunate that the MVaccing is so expensive, otherwise I think it would be used more, and probably should be. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I don't even know how to respond to that lol other than I disagree and don't think that's what happened. But JMO.
JMO

My uncle was a welder and he worked with molten metals and gases etc. He wore those kinds of suits in his workshop routinely

I don’t see why it would be considered out of the realm of possibility. Especially if it was a premeditated crime. He had those suits available, so why wouldn’t he use one to prevent leaving DNA ?

 

[mrjitty]

I think the "threatening" IM exchange has been taken out of context. I don't think DK was threatening physical harm and I don't believe Joey took it as that either.

I think all the talk about DK is nothing more than a feable attempt to create reasonable doubt.

Yes. People need to read Joey's letter to his webmaster which reveals his thinking about DK

As I understand it, the threat was to withdraw Joey's SEO backlinks which would in effect kill the traffic. Not a personal threat. Such things happen in the webgame because the website is the leverage the developer has over the client to get paid. So this threat was to Joey's livelihood.

As someone who has had these types of arguments, it tends to be why I don't go any of these site JVs because either you never get paid, or if the business goes well, they try and force you out!

So no comment on DK specifically as I don't know him, but my reading is he was somewhat naive and bit the hand that feeds (devs often do this as they can be very egotistical) but also devs do tend to get justifiably miffed when they achieve really great results and then aren't recognised for it.

And as Corn notes, Joey did not appear to deny that he was partners with DK.

As you are well aware, it’s been extremely difficult these past months due to I think primarily this dismal economy and we do sell a “luxury item” which is the 1st to go when people are simply trying to survive and only buy necessities. We haven’t formally met… I simply pay you folks each month these past years. I allowed Dan to deal with you since he is the SEO specialist for the site….

As of recently, due to the declining sales, etc., Dan Kavanaugh and myself have been having a “falling out.” To give you some history: We met around 2001 when he helped build our Electronics Website and we became friends. He is extremely talented, but young. So, from time to time he’d need $$$, I’d give it to him and he’d give me software, etc. He was just a kid at 21-22 back then. He didn’t have a car, so I let him use a Volks Vanagon I wasn’t using to help him out.

I’ve been doing building fountains since 1998 and originally built earthinspiredproducts.com in 2000. I’m passionate about fountains. I built them & love them. It’s not just for $$$ for me. The site didn’t do much till 2005 when I got
together with Dan & suggested we revamp EIP from the dead and give it a go. Then 1,000’s
of hours redesigning began, re-establishing relationships with past vendors, etc. A lot of
late nights & coffee among other things.

Since then with your help, PPC, etc. we’ve built it up pretty good. Yet 2008 was tough at times and extremely difficult this past 3 months in particular.

I’m 39 years old, have a wife & 3 kids. Dan is 28, single, no kids. Very few responsibilities &
parties like a rock star, heck can’t blame him.

But, the success of eip is much more critical to me than to him. I can’t couch hop as he could, I have mouths to feed. mI know from experience, that you “have to save up for the rainy day” and I did now for 4 yrs. Dan never did. Whether he made $3,000 or $8,000 in a month, it was gone as soon as he got it. I was raised by a single Mom who was like a
father & mom to me, strong & solid w/ a good work ethic, Dan didn’t have that luxury. It was difficult for him, thus it’s made him who he is, Abandonment issues, Lack of Trust, etc.

Having said all the above, Dan has become quite malicious towards me to the point of
affecting my family. Please see IM string below. It’s quite sad, since we considered him like family, w/ my 2 youngest calling him “uncle Dan.” I would appreciate your input and any help you could recommend. Fountains are my life, EIP feeds my family.
I can’t have EIP disappear o the face of the earth and end up back in a cubicle working for
someone else. But, if I have to for me and my family to survive, I will. I do wish the best for Dan. I will not be malicious as he is being. And perhaps we can work through this or part ways amicably, I don’t know.

Either way, I wanted to give you folks a “heads up” on the situation. I appreciate your help.​

 

[mrjitty]

In Canada, it's strictly prohibited for the jury to hear anything about the defendent's criminal record. It's considered likely to unfairly prejudice a jury and violate the right to a fair trial. Past criminal actions or, for that matter, the lack of past criminal actions, have no bearing on whether the person is guilty of the particular crime they are accused of.

RSBM

Do you have a link for this?

Most common law countries have the rule against so called similar fact evidence, but allow it to be introduced under various exceptions. I had not heard that Canada had a complete ban. See for example

Similar fact evidence - Wikipedia

The rules to guard against propensity reasoning are pretty strong - to avoid the dangers of the jury thinking "this is the kind of guy who would do a murder"

But past criminal offending can be highly relevant in certain situations.

 

[mrjitty]

^^^ Thank you! I believe it's the same in the U.S.

I don't believe that this is the case at all. IIRC in the current case the priors entered into evidence precisely because the defence raised them.

Similar fact evidence - Wikipedia

 

[mrjitty]

Why not? Many murderers have zero history of violent crimes before the murders.

Indeed many domestic abusers also have zero criminal history until they escalate to a crime that can't be covered up. Usually emergency room visit or death.

 

[mrjitty]

I know more than a few men who beat up their young sons to discipline them, who are some of the kindest people I've known, and their sons were thankful after growing up. In fact one of my elementary school classmate routinely came to class with a red palm print on his face from his father. Now as a grown man he loves and cares for his father.

<modsnip - demeaning>

Textbook domestic abuse doesn't exactly fit with the profile of "the kindest people"

Suggests anger management issues and extreme lack of empathy.

 

[mrjitty]

Here are some answer to question I asked Patrick or we have discussed in the past.

#739 Yes his opinion of Merritt and his involvement changed but it was long before his arrest. He and people working with him had much more information that some here want to admit or accept. There is number of things that show violence from Merritt.
#1 The women who worked with him that found the box of papers with a number of tax notices/unpaid taxes for employees
#2 His punching holes or hitting the walls when he was mad as other employees also said
#3 The fact she was afraid of him and wouldn't meet alone with him to even get her final check she had a Sheriff Deputy go with her and Merritt hid in his shop and wouldn't answer the door.
#4 She then had to meet him in a public place because she was so afraid of him to get that final check Her father went with her that time.
#5 The cat story
#6 Witnesses to fights in bars and Merritt liked to fight according to them
#7 Miners who also were afraid of him and stated so.

So there is plenty of information that questioned Merritts violence and against his being a choirboy

Thanks for this info Bobcat!

Now as to DK and his being a partner. Not a chance. Patrick was fully aware of the DK PAYOFF DK was paid off to get him out of control of the website because JM knew DK could ruin his life and the business. Thats all that was and why Patrick said it was a payoff not a buyout. It was more of a bribe to get rid of him.

BIB - this would not really surprise me. In many of these small business situations people enter into loose partnerships without any written contract and thus often the expectations on each side can be different.

For instance in terms of IP, 90% of the real value of the site is the search rankings. So Joey can easily hire someone else to run the ecommerce but the rankings are not something anyone can do (so many shysters!). So as someone who does digital platforms I can completely understand why DK would regard the SEO offsite aspects as his own IP which disappear if Joey stops paying him or which need to be brought out.

If we exit a relationship the client gets code only. We don't deliver to them any of our IP that was retained as services.

So in practical terms I can see why Joey did need to buy DK out - regardless of any contract. Especially now that IP is delivering a fat sales pipe via Google rankings.

Why should Joey benefit from DKs SEO work in the future when he isn't paying? You can go round the houses on that but this is why people like Joey get themselves into trouble because they don't have proper contracts around IP

 

[mrjitty]

That's absolutely correct, anyone, no matter what past criminal history they have is capable of these killings. So, the fact that CM has a past history of theft related crimes certainly shouldn't cast any greater suspicion upon him than any others in the McStay's orbit.

His past criminal history is relevant to his stealing from Joey in this case IMO

And that theft goes to motive.