CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #2

[mrjitty]

His best friend and he didn't go down to the house until the following Tuesday or Wednesday!

Been thinking about this.

My business partner "went missing" about 6 mths ago from Friday to Monday. We communicate almost every day.

I first realised when a client called me on the friday because they could not get hold of him and needed an urgent quote. At first i tried to contact my business partner. Then after 2hrs of no response I did the quote and reported what I had done. I sent some more followups in the weekend - and then, not having heard anything on Monday sent my first worried texts/emails. This got a response (family crisis)

My point is that if you walk back my comms, they illustrate a clear progression

The first messages are more like "hey mate - i need you to get in touch urgently about the Project XX"

Then - "just following up - need to do the quote by 3"

Then "mate i went ahead and did the quote - cced you in. Discuss Monday"

Then (weekend) "all ok?"

Then (monday) Mate - i've not had any response to any comms since thursday? Getting worried here!"

Given the work they are doing together, and given Chase should not know JM has disappeared where are the messages about projects etc?

To me ringing and leaving no message is bizarre

 

[mrjitty]

I think it's fair he had more daily contact with Joey than his family did plus he had a business to take care of with him.

Agreed

We have no contact with local family for weeks at a time

Not sure they would rush straight around either. I can easily see them assuming we'd gone away.

 

[mrjitty]

He doesnt miss a chance to disparage the woman he murdered. How vile.

He is worthless human waste imo.

Sadly it's a common theme in these cases.

See Pistorius and lately Chris Watts.

 

[mrjitty]

So I may have misheard but I thought he said his impression was that Dan more or less lived in Hawaii.

blow me down with a feather if the defence case about Dan turns out to be a sand castle

 

[mrjitty]

Could the defence compel DK to testify?

IIRC yes.

It's a long time between drinks for me (law school back in the early 90s) but as a general principle, when it is your witness, you will elicit their evidence in chief. You cannot lead the witness. Nor are you on X so you cannot seek to attack the witness.

The exception is where the witness proves to be hostile, in which case you can ask the judge to declare them hostile. Then you can ask leading questions.

IIRC, this is the kind of thing that the state and defence negotiate about pre-trial. The state may not want to call DK as he has no direct relevance to their case, but as he forms part of the overall picture they may have a duty to the court to call him. So as the witness fits better as a state witness, the appropriate party calls him

But I know there is plenty of room for "fog of war" here. So maybe tactically the state don't end up calling him which puts the defence in a tough spot.

Joey might have been on a step learning curve about running a business, but there is no way he would have let CM-who he knew had a gambling problem, and had a criminal history- access to business credit cards and cheques. No way in the world. (Even a trusted employee spending like that, honestly on behalf of the business- would make a messy paper trail that would need to be reconciled every month)

My opinion is that Joey was going through the usual messy phase of growing up from a home business to a proper business and had he not been murdered, he would have made significant changes.

The real value in his business came from the sales pipeline which in turn came from SEO. SEO services have always been expensive and murky and Google changes the rules every few years.

IMO this is partly why he was exiting Dan (see email to his webhost). He needed to completely control his sales pipe. So own the site and appoint a SEO contractor.

Re CM i agree.

He had relied on CM because he did not want to handle the whole fabrication side IMO. Sadly his lack of attention to all this led to his murder.

Had he lived, I am sure he would have exited Chase immediately and appointed MSM to handle this by themselves. Probably he would have needed to appoint a designer, and perhaps someone to do installations. But this would have all been far cheaper without Chase the crook.

Sorry for so many posts in a row but I am on euro time and there were 10 pages of fascinating posts to catch up on!

 

[cobalt sky]

Been thinking about this.

My business partner "went missing" about 6 mths ago from Friday to Monday. We communicate almost every day.

I first realised when a client called me on the friday because they could not get hold of him and needed an urgent quote. At first i tried to contact my business partner. Then after 2hrs of no response I did the quote and reported what I had done. I sent some more followups in the weekend - and then, not having heard anything on Monday sent my first worried texts/emails. This got a response (family crisis)

My point is that if you walk back my comms, they illustrate a clear progression

The first messages are more like "hey mate - i need you to get in touch urgently about the Project XX"

Then - "just following up - need to do the quote by 3"

Then "mate i went ahead and did the quote - cced you in. Discuss Monday"

Then (weekend) "all ok?"

Then (monday) Mate - i've not had any response to any comms since thursday? Getting worried here!"

Given the work they are doing together, and given Chase should not know JM has disappeared where are the messages about projects etc?

To me ringing and leaving no message is bizarre

I feel the need to speak up here not in defense of CM but because I have seen a lot of cherry picking and twisting of circumstances lately and I'm not an echo-chamber kind of girl.

I think it's important to keep in mind that although a lot of information has surfaced over the years about the McStays and their family/friends/business associates, it is at times hard to differentiate between facts, gossip, and honest confusion, and most important, what we "think" we know about the McStays is probably only a very small glimpse into the actual lives of the McStays.

There could be any number of reasons why CM did not immediately call LE. There could be reasons that only CM knew at the time that Joseph had disclosed to him and so he wanted to give it the weekend before sounding any alarms (in order to protect them). Perhaps CM did not feel that it was his place to bring LE into the family's picture and that is why he opted to contact Joseph's immediate family, his mother Susan, so that she could investigate further. Or, did CM have warrants at that time? Maybe he didn't want to draw LE attention to himself. And of course, maybe he did murder the family and wanted those few days to cover his tracks. All are possible imo, I'm waiting for the trial to convince me one way or the other.

If we are going to criticize CM's actions in the days after the family went missing, in all fairness, we have to also consider the actions (inactions?) of JM's family as well. As a mother, if my son's business associate came to my home, worried that he hasn't been in contact with my son for several days, and if I could not contact him myself, I would immediately be in the car on the way to his home. I would not think that dog bowl movement (Bear was a big dog, how did they know Bear didn't move the bowls while eating/drinking?) was an adequate explanation that my family was ok. Also curious is that Susan did not try to call Summer ????. Mike thought they might be on a 10-day vacation ???? with everything that was going on in their lives??? But again, in all fairness, we do not have a crystal ball inside the dynamics of the McStay family so there could be what the family thought were very good reasons to not take it more seriously at the time, or to maybe protect them at the time, or protect themselves. We just don't know. All imo.

 

[mrjitty]

I feel the need to speak up here not in defense of CM but because I have seen a lot of cherry picking and twisting of circumstances lately and I'm not an echo-chamber kind of girl.

I think it's important to keep in mind that although a lot of information has surfaced over the years about the McStays and their family/friends/business associates, it is at times hard to differentiate between facts, gossip, and honest confusion, and most important, what we "think" we know about the McStays is probably only a very small glimpse into the actual lives of the McStays.

Completely agree. As I already posted, I doubt our local family would be immediately concerned if they could not contact us. They'd assume we went away.

There could be any number of reasons why CM did not immediately call LE. There could be reasons that only CM knew at the time that Joseph had disclosed to him and so he wanted to give it the weekend before sounding any alarms (in order to protect them). Perhaps CM did not feel that it was his place to bring LE into the family's picture and that is why he opted to contact Joseph's immediate family, his mother Susan, so that she could investigate further. Or, did CM have warrants at that time? Maybe he didn't want to draw LE attention to himself. And of course, maybe he did murder the family and wanted those few days to cover his tracks. All are possible imo, I'm waiting for the trial to convince me one way or the other.

I don't find the failure to contact LE suspicious - at least initially.

What i find strange is the lack of business messages. You don't know they are missing, So if you are calling in relation to work, you might not leave a message the first time, but surely you would pretty soon leave a message so as Joey would know why he needs to ring you back, or to tell him what was happening - especially if you think Joey is on holiday but might check his messages. he doesn't even leave a message asking him to ring back!

It's the combination of that, together with the backdating, that I find suspicious.

But that's the thing with Circumstantial evidence - its the power of the evidence seen together that matters, and Chase clearly never expected this family to come back.

 

[cobalt sky]

snipped

What i find strange is the lack of business messages. You don't know they are missing, So if you are calling in relation to work, you might not leave a message the first time, but surely you would pretty soon leave a message so as Joey would know why he needs to ring you back, or to tell him what was happening - especially if you think Joey is on holiday but might check his messages. he doesn't even leave a message asking him to ring back!

It's the combination of that, together with the backdating, that I find suspicious.

I was mostly referring to CM/McStay family contacting LE, but I see what you're saying. As far as leaving messages, seeing as JM and CM normally talked every day, was it their habit to leave messages? Or, as with my sister who NEVER listens to VM, I just call her, she sees that I call, and then calls me back when she can. I never bother to leave her a VM. I don't know their call habits that well so that could be a possibility. Or, if what CM wanted to say to JM was of a sensitive nature maybe he didn't want to leave that kind of information in a VM and just figured JM would call him back when he could.

But realistically, even as open minded as I am about this case, it is almost certain that even if CM did not murder the family, he certainly knew something went down. And that is the most likely reason he didn't leave a VM or bother to call anymore after a few days. All imo.

 

[mrjitty]

I was mostly referring to CM/McStay family contacting LE, but I see what you're saying. As far as leaving messages, seeing as JM and CM normally talked every day, was it their habit to leave messages? Or, as with my sister who NEVER listens to VM, I just call her, she sees that I call, and then calls me back when she can. I never bother to leave her a VM. I don't know their call habits that well so that could be a possibility. Or, if what CM wanted to say to JM was of a sensitive nature maybe he didn't want to leave that kind of information in a VM and just figured JM would call him back when he could.

But realistically, even as open minded as I am about this case, it is almost certain that even if CM did not murder the family, he certainly knew something went down. And that is the most likely reason he didn't leave a VM or bother to call anymore after a few days. All imo.

I agree that habit matters - but that is why the progression is important because quickly the situation becomes unusual.

I also don't like VM so initially I would just send a text followup. And then when I got no response I would send a frustrated more aggressive text. I would also explain why i need to speak as that creates more reason to act. Then would come the worried messages.

So while I agree you might not leave a message at first it seems strange to me that you would not seek to communicate at the very least after a few days when you are in the middle of key projects

What I find interesting is he then seeks to involve other people yet Joey is the person he doesn't communicate with.

 

[asyousay]

Completely agree. As I already posted, I doubt our local family would be immediately concerned if they could not contact us. They'd assume we went away.
.

See that doesn’t work though with the Mcstays because we know the dogs being abandoned in the garden was a flag. Anybody who claimed to know the family as well as Chase did should of know as soon as he saw those dogs in the garden something was massively wrong.

McGyver said the same thing in his testimony that Summer would NEVER of just gone away without proper care for those dogs. Chase also said the same thing that the dogs ALWAYS slept inside so then that doesn’t tally with the family just one evening abandoning them to go off on their jolly’s.

Considering what Chase did to the family I am amazed he didn’t kill the dogs as them going off with the family made a lot more sense than them being left behind raising a red flag as Summer just wouldn’t of left them like that.

 

[missy1974]

This makes no sense to me but then I don't know Cali rules?

The defense case appears to be that DK did the murders

So why the hell would DK appear as a defense witness? That would be insanity for the defense as well as the witness would then be hostile to the defense's own questioning?

Unless this is all so crazy that DK is basically OK with all that and wants to give testimony potentially implicating himself in quadruple homicide?

I do think given the defense case, it would be appropriate for the State to compel him to testify. And normally (though my knowledge is sketchy) it is negotiated between state and defense as to who calls the witness.

But maybe state won't call DK precisely so such a bloodbath can take place?

Anyway a big issue for the defense in that situation is that they can't X the witness. They get his EIC. So DK can simply give the most harmless self serving evidence he wants and the defence can't attack it - unless they get him declared hostile?

There was talk about him being declared a hostile witness... also talk about him pleading the 5th.

 

[mrjitty]

See that doesn’t work though with the Mcstays because we know the dogs being abandoned in the garden was a flag. Anybody who claimed to know the family as well as Chase did should of know as soon as he saw those dogs in the garden something was massively wrong.

McGyver said the same thing in his testimony that Summer would NEVER of just gone away without proper care for those dogs. Chase also said the same thing that the dogs ALWAYS slept inside so then that doesn’t tally with the family just one evening abandoning them to go off on their jolly’s.

Considering what Chase did to the family I am amazed he didn’t kill the dogs as them going off with the family made a lot more sense than them being left behind raising a red flag as Summer just wouldn’t of left them like that.

I think he wanted the disappearance to be discovered within a few days - just not immediately

In many of these cases the perp stages the crime scene, then arranges for someone else to innocently discover the mystery

The same behaviour is found in children.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't know what to think about the credit card info, I can't see why Joey would do that at all.

Just jumping off this because it sparked a thought.

At some point in his interview he talks about Metro Sheet Metal contacting him and asking what they should do, in the circumstances, with the two cheques they had received, and Merritt said (this is from memory not word for word) 'you had them since the 4th or the 5th' or something, and words to the effect 'I can't believe they hadn't already banked them because the bank account is going to be frozen'. Remember this conversation with MSM had to have occurred before the interview on the 17th, so less than two weeks since disappearance. Thinking that the bank account is going to be frozen before two weeks is out says to me he knows Joey isn't ever coming back.

I think his knowledge and forethought that the bank account would be frozen had a bearing on when he decided he would get LE involved, and he probably maxed out Joey's credit card too, knowing that would also be stopped/cancelled at some point soon.

MOO

 

[missy1974]

Been thinking about this.

My business partner "went missing" about 6 mths ago from Friday to Monday. We communicate almost every day.

I first realised when a client called me on the friday because they could not get hold of him and needed an urgent quote. At first i tried to contact my business partner. Then after 2hrs of no response I did the quote and reported what I had done. I sent some more followups in the weekend - and then, not having heard anything on Monday sent my first worried texts/emails. This got a response (family crisis)

My point is that if you walk back my comms, they illustrate a clear progression

The first messages are more like "hey mate - i need you to get in touch urgently about the Project XX"

Then - "just following up - need to do the quote by 3"

Then "mate i went ahead and did the quote - cced you in. Discuss Monday"

Then (weekend) "all ok?"

Then (monday) Mate - i've not had any response to any comms since thursday? Getting worried here!"

Given the work they are doing together, and given Chase should not know JM has disappeared where are the messages about projects etc?

To me ringing and leaving no message is bizarre

I do believe that DuGal testified that VM's could have been deleted before he heard them. IIRC the first or 2nd VM was from after they were reported missing, so the 15th.

 

[Mica]

He says 65% MINUS the costs... he uses an example (and I think is showing them paperwork), on a 9500-10000 fountain, he makes about $1500-$1800. So actually he only makes 15-18%.

I don't know what to think about the credit card info, I can't see why Joey would do that at all.

About the credit card info.....CM said Joey gave him his credit card number to purchase materials. Dan confirms this in the cbs8 interview with David Gottfried and specifically mentions CM and others having access to credit card numbers linked to the Paypal account.

2:05 on video

Dan Kavanaugh interview - Nov. 26, 2013

 

[mrjitty]

Just jumping off this because it sparked a thought.

At some point in his interview he talks about Metro Sheet Metal contacting him and asking what they should do, in the circumstances, with the two cheques they had received, and Merritt said (this is from memory not word for word) 'you had them since the 4th or the 5th' or something, and words to the effect 'I can't believe they hadn't already banked them because the bank account is going to be frozen'. Remember this conversation with MSM had to have occurred before the interview on the 17th, so less than two weeks since disappearance. Thinking that the bank account is going to be frozen before two weeks is out says to me he knows Joey isn't ever coming back.

I think his knowledge and forethought that the bank account would be frozen had a bearing on when he decided he would get LE involved, and he probably maxed out Joey's credit card too, knowing that would also be stopped/cancelled at some point soon.

MOO

The whole thing with the cheques is such a redflag.

Why create fraudulent cheques for a supplier when Joey might come home tomorrow?

 

[mrjitty]

I do believe that DuGal testified that VM's could have been deleted before he heard them. IIRC the first or 2nd VM was from after they were reported missing, so the 15th.

I believe the VM itself could be deleted but not its existence

 

[Tortoise]

It was mentioned earlier that Chase said no one was at Chick-Fil-A... it's all about context and this was really hard to hear earlier. IMO when he says he was the only one there, I believe he is meaning that Joey was only meeting with Chase, no one else... not Michael.

1:18:45 of this video is where it's mentioned about not seeing anyone at Chick-Fil-A. You have to listen to the question that is asked of him first, DuGal asks if he (Joey) talks to Michael at Chick-Fil-A (this is the second time I have heard DuGal ask this so far)... then this is what I hear:

as far as I know the only person that Joseph saw Thursday at Chick-Fil-A, well I know for a fact the only person he saw at Chick-Fil-A was me, there was nobody... then it sounds like DuGal and Fisk (??) talking to each other and Fisk says 'did Michael say he was at Chick-Fil-A' and Dugal says 'yeah', she asks 'what time' ... D: 'lunch'.. F: 'maybe it was before'... then she asks Merritt who went their first, you are him. Chase goes on to say there is no way Mikey was out there for lunch that day with him.

I wonder why they think Michael was there at lunch time and met with Joseph?

Possibly DuGal got his wires crossed and Mikey told him that Chase met Joey at Chick-Fil-A and DuGal misunderstood.

 

[mrjitty]

There was talk about him being declared a hostile witness... also talk about him pleading the 5th.

Did the talk come from DK?

Overall I believe the State should call this witness.

 

[missy1974]

I feel the need to speak up here not in defense of CM but because I have seen a lot of cherry picking and twisting of circumstances lately and I'm not an echo-chamber kind of girl.

I think it's important to keep in mind that although a lot of information has surfaced over the years about the McStays and their family/friends/business associates, it is at times hard to differentiate between facts, gossip, and honest confusion, and most important, what we "think" we know about the McStays is probably only a very small glimpse into the actual lives of the McStays.

There could be any number of reasons why CM did not immediately call LE. There could be reasons that only CM knew at the time that Joseph had disclosed to him and so he wanted to give it the weekend before sounding any alarms (in order to protect them). Perhaps CM did not feel that it was his place to bring LE into the family's picture and that is why he opted to contact Joseph's immediate family, his mother Susan, so that she could investigate further. Or, did CM have warrants at that time? Maybe he didn't want to draw LE attention to himself. And of course, maybe he did murder the family and wanted those few days to cover his tracks. All are possible imo, I'm waiting for the trial to convince me one way or the other.

If we are going to criticize CM's actions in the days after the family went missing, in all fairness, we have to also consider the actions (inactions?) of JM's family as well. As a mother, if my son's business associate came to my home, worried that he hasn't been in contact with my son for several days, and if I could not contact him myself, I would immediately be in the car on the way to his home. I would not think that dog bowl movement (Bear was a big dog, how did they know Bear didn't move the bowls while eating/drinking?) was an adequate explanation that my family was ok. Also curious is that Susan did not try to call Summer ????. Mike thought they might be on a 10-day vacation ???? with everything that was going on in their lives??? But again, in all fairness, we do not have a crystal ball inside the dynamics of the McStay family so there could be what the family thought were very good reasons to not take it more seriously at the time, or to maybe protect them at the time, or protect themselves. We just don't know. All imo.

THIS!!!

It is really hard to forget what we thought we knew about this case and just listen to the evidence that is being presented in court. This is what the jury is hearing, this is what they are going to make a decision on guilty or not guilty in this case.

Around the 9th or 10th, Patrick raised alarm bells, Chase raised alarm bells, and I believe Dan even raised alarm bells.

 

[missy1974]

Completely agree. As I already posted, I doubt our local family would be immediately concerned if they could not contact us. They'd assume we went away.



I don't find the failure to contact LE suspicious - at least initially.

What i find strange is the lack of business messages. You don't know they are missing, So if you are calling in relation to work, you might not leave a message the first time, but surely you would pretty soon leave a message so as Joey would know why he needs to ring you back, or to tell him what was happening - especially if you think Joey is on holiday but might check his messages. he doesn't even leave a message asking him to ring back!

It's the combination of that, together with the backdating, that I find suspicious.

But that's the thing with Circumstantial evidence - its the power of the evidence seen together that matters, and Chase clearly never expected this family to come back.

Again, I think the VM's may have been deleted.

The backdating... well, I don't know how they explain that haha