CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #6

[Force Ten]

do his QB actions amount to murder?

No it doesn't. Not entirely. I don't understand why you keep postulating this notion that people believe in his guilt on the QB alone. There's so much more.

 

[missy1974]

Exactly right. It did not exist on the Custom vendor list because Joey had NEVER EVER written a check to Chase from the Custom Account. I still haven't seen or heard any logical reason that Joey would begin doing so, especially considering it was the very the week he went missing.

ok then, so no need for anyone to say "why didn't he just choose it from the vendor list" or "Chase Merritt or I Design Chase or Metro Sheet Metal" were already on the list. This was my point. It had nothing to do with if he should or shouldn't be accessing the account, or if Joey did or didn't give him access.

In almost every theory I read, there are factual errors. I get that some have theorized for years and assumptions have to be made, in any theory, but once we have evidence of something, I think it's imperative that we acknowledge them. JMO If some are going to choose to ignore them to fit their theory, than so be it I guess.

When I read theories or ideas that are mainly based off of things that we now know might not be true based on the evidence, I can then discount that theory or idea... that is just me though.

 

[missy1974]

does anyone think the murderer (Chase) had help restraining & murdering & burying and also had help taking the Trooper to the border?

If Chase did this, I think he had help. Who, I don't know.

 

[Edmo]

does anyone think the murderer (Chase) had help restraining & murdering & burying and also had help taking the Trooper to the border?

Me, No. He got in over his head after stealing from JM, IMO. A 3lb sledge hammer can render someone knocked out/dead with a single hit. Once he killed JM, the others were "sitting ducks" , IMO.

I don't think they were restrained. IMO, the rope/tie downs etc were for transporting them to the grave sites.

 

[Edmo]

If Chase did this, I think he had help. Who, I don't know.

IF he is convicted, it will be interesting to see what he has to say to the State. I've seen other murder convictions where the convicted later implicated others after they have been convicted. They FINALLY tell the truth about the crime.

Either CM is keeping the "code of convicts" and not selling out anyone else, or he is waiting to see if he takes the hit for the crime. JMO

I doubt it though, he would GLADLY give up someone else to save himself.

 

[missy1974]

IF he is convicted, it will be interesting to see what he has to say to the State. I've seen other murder convictions where the convicted later implicated others after they have been convicted. They FINALLY tell the truth about the crime.

Either CM is keeping the "code of convicts" and not selling out anyone else, or he is waiting to see if he takes the hit for the crime. JMO

I doubt it though, he would GLADLY give up someone else to save himself.

Unfortunately, if he is convicted, I have a feeling this case will get caught up in appeal after appeal. JMO

 

[Plumeria5]

Me, No. He got in over his head after stealing from JM, IMO. A 3lb sledge hammer can render someone knocked out/dead with a single hit. Once he killed JM, the others were "sitting ducks" , IMO.

I don't think they were restrained. IMO, the rope/tie downs etc were for transporting them to the grave sites.

Perhaps Joey was sitting at his desk as CM said he was "during the phone call"...and caught him off guard.Would say from behind but wouldn't the leg injuries come first? Still not sure he ever made it home.

 

[HelenK]

A Lucas, I remember well!

Me too.

Referring to A Lucas' post:

"Do any of you old timers here think/remember CM was on this forum in the early days. Chasing Waterfalls? Or am I losing the plot?

He may have grabbed a load of pics of stuff we were sharing between us. Phone records and so forth. Things that make you go hmmmm"

 

[MsFacetious]

The trial is only about 1/3 of the way through the state's case. This fraudulent check cashing is building the foundation for the motive. It is a necessary brick in the wall, imo.

It does 'link' him to the murders because it shows us that Chase would have a strong reason to want Joey to disappear if in fact, Chase was embezzling from the business.

I totally agree this can be motive. My neighbor was murdered by someone to cover up embezzling. However, that suspect did not have a criminal history.

What would cause Chase to murder a family of four to hide a crime that he'd committed both before AND after the murders? Why didn't he murder the people he ripped off before and after Joey? That's what I struggle with.

If so, wouldn't he give Chase a log in username and password?

I think that statement from Patrick is damning for Chase. Joey was complaining about the quality of work and discussed with his father, the need for hiring other welders.

That may have angrily triggered Chase, as he knew a lot of lucrative deals were coming in. JMO

However, Chase would have had a chance to improve and be part of those lucrative deals. Killing the family didn't get him those lucrative deals. Seems like if that was the motive it went all wrong.

 

[Bernina]

Posters have opinions, and IMO that hasn't debunked anything. I need to wait to see all the evidence.

Sequida Sr. called Joey a crook, because Joey wouldn't tell him what he was selling the products for. I believe that Chase never owed MSM any money and there is no testimony that he did. There was something about an insurance claim that they were waiting on payment for, but that was from Joey(and they later sued Mikey for IIRC), both Carmen and Sequieda Jr testified that Joey paid, not Chase.

Feel free to find the testimony and post it though, maybe I missed it.

BBM

The reference was Chase brought checks to MSM, if he "forgot" Joey said he'd cover it.

 

[katydid23]

I totally agree this can be motive. My neighbor was murdered by someone to cover up embezzling. However, that suspect did not have a criminal history.

What would cause Chase to murder a family of four to hide a crime that he'd committed both before AND after the murders? Why didn't he murder the people he ripped off before and after Joey? That's what I struggle with.

However, Chase would have had a chance to improve and be part of those lucrative deals. Killing the family didn't get him those lucrative deals. Seems like if that was the motive it went all wrong.

This is weird, and I may not be able to explain it very well...but I think there is a reason that he killed Joey and family, and didn't kill the people he stole the 32,000 dollars worth of tools from, or the people he stole fountain down payments from, etc.

I think he loved and admired Joey. But it was also kind of a love/hate thing. We always wonder about the many cases we see here, of people who kill their parents or family members, ---people that actually 'loved' their victims.

I think that Joey and Chase were having a lot of issues, that had begun rising to the surface. Things that Joey had been ignoring but were now getting worse. Joey had always defended Chase and enabled him in many ways. But he couldn't keep doing so. He was getting too many complaints about shoddy work, etc. And he was now paying MSMetal to do the welding that Chase used to do.

And I think Joey may have told Chase that he couldn't cover for him anymore. And they may have had a difficult conversation about money, and what Joey was or wasn't going to pay Chase. And Chase was behind in his rent and bills, but still gambling away 100's of dollars a month. I think he was desperate and in addiction mode.



Joey didn't care about the guy he stole those tools from. Or the people he burglarized. But he loved and trusted Joey. And he considered himself Joey's business partner and best friend. If Joey thought he was going to be able to move on, taking these lucrative new jobs, and hire some 'competition' for Chase, then Chase wasn't going to allow it.

And if Chase was devolving, which he seemed to be doing, he didn't want Joey to be around to see it.Same reason some sick people kill parents or loved ones---they don't want them to see what is going on, with the stealing and lying etc. They cannot bare to be seen in that harsh light. They erupt in rage and anger, almost blaming the victim for the rage and hatred the killer is feeling. I can't explain it, but I have seen it in some horrid cases here---where friends and neighbors say, I can't believe he would kill his grandmother-he loved her.

[ Like the teen in Florida that killed his beloved grandmother, that he was very close to, and buried her in her backyard. And he had just been accused by his teen girlfriend of sexual assault, and I truly felt like he couldn't bare for his grandma to see what he had done... tragic case]

 

[A lucas]

I know some have said it’s a huge leap to go from stealing to murder. But That assumes he’s been caught and convicted for every crime he ever committed. What an unlucky chap!

How do we know what else this guy did (and didn’t get caught for) and was truly capable of?

After all he was clearly a fan of desert burials and got away with this one for four years. Had baby Joseph not been so tiny he may never have been disturbed from his grave and CM would still be at large simply dubbed a petty criminal.

JMO.

 

[mrjitty]

What would cause Chase to murder a family of four to hide a crime that he'd committed both before AND after the murders? Why didn't he murder the people he ripped off before and after Joey? That's what I struggle with.

Just on this point, Chase seemed to be an exponent of scamming people in a borderline way that is obvious breach of contract, but fraud would be quite hard to prove.

So for example, we have some evidence he redirected funds and supplies for one project/vendor to others. Or he did not complete work. Or he did not deliver at all.

But you would have a hard time proving a crime.

That is the qualitative difference for me. So again here we have evidence around MSM about payment being be redirected by Chase and Joey having to cover it. This could lead to a legal fight between Joey and Chase but is not likely criminal.

The obvious conclusion about the cheques on the other hand is that fraud was committed.

So IMO that is the big difference.

 

[mrjitty]

I know some have said it’s a huge leap to go from stealing to murder. But That assumes he’s been caught and convicted for every crime he ever committed. What an unlucky chap!

How do we know what else this guy did (and didn’t get caught for) and was truly capable of?

After all he was clearly a fan of desert burials and got away with this one for four years. Had baby Joseph not been so tiny he may never have been disturbed from his grave and CM would still be at large simply dubbed a petty criminal.

JMO.

In any event we are not saying stealing proves murder

We are saying backdating proves murder
The cheque on night of 4 feb proves murder
the attempt at deleting QB proves murder

Each thing shows secret knowledge of death

 

[mrjitty]

I have listened to the police interview, and I cannot find anything where CM says Joey told him to go into QB and write himself some back dated checks.

For me this is the huge hurdle for the defence

He who asserts must prove.

Chase didn't mention any of this critical stuff in his LE interview.

If the defence wants to run this as a serious issue, then Chase must testify because Chase is the only living person who knows what the arrangement was.

No expert can testify as to why cheques were deleted/backdated in this specific case.

 

[mrjitty]

I believe a critical point is being overlooked about Joey's purported signature on the deleted cheques

Prima facie evidence against all the world

The whole point of the authorised signature on a cheque is to indicate legal consent to the payment described on the face of the cheque. It is after all, a legal instruction to the bank. Absence of Joey's signature or a forged signature, is prima facie evidence that Joey did not in fact consent, until proven otherwise.

Given the apparent difference to Joey's normal signature, and the fact that even on the defences own case, Joey was abducted early on the 5th, in my analysis, we have a clear situation where Prima Facie, Joey did not sign, and thus did not consent.

So without evidence to the contrary, that conclusion is inescapable, in my highly overvalued legal opinion.

The reason it is critical is because the evidential burden rests on the defence to rebut this prima facie conclusion.

Did Joey pre-sign the cheques?

On the defence's own case, the only way Joey could sign all the deleted cheques was if he pre-signed the blanks. However this alleged fact is not in evidence in the trial, and so far, must be dismissed as speculation as against the prima facie conclusion.

Given no signed blanks have been recovered from the defence, despite Chase necessarily having such blanks in his possession - in my opinion the only way to place it in evidence would be for Chase to testify to the same. Especially since he left this out of his contemporaneous statement.

So again, should the defence not meet this evidential hurdle, we must conclude Joey did not authorise these cheques.

Failure to produce the signed blanks

Finally I would note that the defence's failure to produce the blanks in the context of this murder trial must strongly call into question the defence's contention.

We can of course speculate why they don't produce them, but I would suggest the biggest black mark would once more be failing to produce any testimony about what happened to them.

 

[Niner]

The other aspect to look at in regard to the nature of Joey and Chase's relationship is their phone log. Call patterns between individuals can be telling.

That's why I put up the phone logs starting with January 20, 2010 to compare how many times they did call each other.

Joey’s specific phone calls from
Wednesday, January 20, 2010 – Monday, January 25, 2010 see: pdf file on http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?229250-Joseph-McStay-Cell-Phone-Log ) too long to post all.

Wednesday, January 20, 2010
Calls between Joey and Chase – from 7:31am to 8:40pm – 20 calls

Thursday, January 21, 2010
Calls between Joey and Chase – from 8:36am to 6:21pm – 18 calls

Friday, January 22, 2010
Calls between Joey and Chase – from 8:12am to 4:52pm – 10 calls

Saturday, January 23, 2010
Calls between Joey and Chase – from 10:19am to 1:42pm – 3 calls

Sunday, January 24, 2010
Calls between Joey and Chase – from 10:19am to 7:52pm – 7 calls

Monday, January 25, 2010
Calls between Joey and Chase – from 9:04am to 2:58pm – 2 calls

Tuesday, Jan. 26, 2010
Joey makes business calls from 8am - 6pm, 6 calls to/from Chase today

Wednesday, Jan. 27, 2010
Joey makes business calls from 8am - 6pm, 7 calls to/from Chase today

Thursday, Jan. 28, 2010
Joey makes business calls from 9am - 4pm, 10 calls/texts to/from Chase today

Friday, Jan. 29, 2010
Joey makes business calls from 8:30am – 1:30pm, 8 calls to/from Chase today

Saturday, Jan. 30, 2010
8:37pm – incoming text from friend 7 calls/texts to CM today

Sunday, Feb. 1, 2010
5 calls to/from Chase today

Monday, Feb. 2, 2010
18 calls to/from Chase, esp between 5:08pm-11pm – 11 calls

Tuesday, Feb. 3, 2010
7am-6pm Joey works, 24 calls/texts to/from Chase/Joey today

Wednesday, Feb. 4, 2010
8am - 8:28pm 14 calls/texts to/from Chase/Joey

Thursday, Feb. 5, 2010
3:47pm – contact between victim’s cell phone and defendant’s cell. Per Preliminary hearings – page 91 – call originated from defendant’s cell (2 calls). Feb. 4th is the last time CM leaves voice message for Joey.

 

[Niner]

California is multi lingual, so taking Spanish isn't a big deal. Learning Italian I would think would be cool for a child. Both of my children are bi-lingual, English and Spanish, part because of their heritage, and they were raised here in Arizona. My grand kids are too.

I went to school in California - wish I had taken Spanish - I took German! LOL! I found it not unusual if Summer wanted her kids to learn Spanish.

Real life calls - way behind on this thread - but will be back later... only 55 posts to read!

 

[Tortoise]

Posters have opinions, and IMO that hasn't debunked anything. I need to wait to see all the evidence.

Sequida Sr. called Joey a crook, because Joey wouldn't tell him what he was selling the products for. I believe that Chase never owed MSM any money and there is no testimony that he did. There was something about an insurance claim that they were waiting on payment for, but that was from Joey(and they later sued Mikey for IIRC), both Carmen and Sequieda Jr testified that Joey paid, not Chase.

Feel free to find the testimony and post it though, maybe I missed it.

Chase wrote two cheques for Metro on Feb 5th, backdated to the 4th, totaling $1900, for miscellaneous manufacturing - per the memo line.

Carmen was calling Joey on Friday 5th - she doesn't remember if the call was about money or a project.

Chase made it down to Metro pretty sharpish after his weekend in the desert with those cheques for Carmen. He also told her he'd been trying to get hold of Joey all weekend but hadn't been able to - matter of fact he made zero calls to Joey on Saturday while he was in Victorville, and he called Joey's number twice within the same minute at 3.47 pm on Sunday. If we take that further to Monday 8th he didn't try calling Joey either that morning because his phone had no activity for 6 hours from 7.26 am to 1.31 pm.

Joey had written a cheque for Metro on Feb 1st for $6350.

This raises questions;

1. Why didn't Joey write those cheques himself on Feb 4th, that Chase wrote on the 5th, or even write them on the 1st when he wrote that other cheque? Clearly it was not new billing after the 4th for Chase to be taking cheques in after the weekend and having not been at work on Friday 5th, meaning Metro was owed this money prior to the 4th.

2. Why would Joey suddenly hand over responsibility to Chase for printing cheques to Metro, from a different QB account, on the day he was murdered?

3. Why would this need to be hidden from Summer? (That was what Chase told detectives was the reason for the QB changes.)

I take this to mean MSM was owed $1900 prior to the 4th, Joey would know about that because it's not new billing to have been paid immediately after the weekend, and so I add that to his discovery of the cheque for $2495 that Chase cashed on the 2nd. Joey not paying it and Chase issuing those cheques as a matter of urgency looks like Chase had indeed spent money given to him for miscellaneous manufacturing.

Joey made out the following cheques to Charles Merritt during the period Dec 15th to Feb 2nd -

1. Dec 15 - 1250
2. Dec 30 - 2700
3. Jan 12 - 1300
4. Jan 25 - 500
5. Jan 28 - 350
6. Feb 2nd - 100
Total = $6200 over 1 and a half months.

(Chase bumped this up by $2495 on Feb 2nd, to $8695)

Chase was only working at Metro I believe, so if this is all remuneration why does Joey split it up into so many small payments? Does this seem to be a fair income 10 years ago for a plumber/welder/crater who wasn't even showing up for work about a month before the murders per Joe Sequeida's testimony? Or does it look like it might have included money for miscell. manuf. costs?

The bottom line is Chase was more than a mailman by Feb 5th, he was directly involved in cheque writing and settlement of Metro's bills.

MOO

 

[HelenK]

Please excuse if this has come up before -I don't have much time to keep up with this. However, JM is referencing the Mexico travel related computer searches here: Remember that they purchased Spanish language tapes off of Craigslist? Actually, I think Spanish and Italian. IIRC, LE was able to track down the people from whom they purchased them -they were delivered to Joey at a soccer game.

We had long discussions here in the past. So strange -Spanish (perhaps related to travel to Mexico searches) but Italian? Summer was, apparently, infatuated with all-things Italian at the time, but interesting that one would buy two different foreign language programs. I think most of us at the time chalked it up to: Spanish for possible travel to Mexico (considering those computer searches) and perhaps Italian just because. At any rate, I do think those tapes point in the direction of Mexico plans on the part of the McStays.

A

May I suggest that, because Summer was planning to re-enter the real estate market, she thought that a working knowledge of Spanish would be to her advantage in that regard.