CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #2

[Quiet Time]

Yes it's bad where I am today too. I do think that when it's visibly smoky most people would know better than to exert themselves, especially without a quality facemask.

But on days that look relatively better this summer, people might feel like "finally! it's ok to go outside!" even though there is still a lot of not-obvious gunk in the air.

On another note, I really hope the investigators are scouring the couple of miles of trail BELOW where the family was found, for any signs of earlier distress: places where they may have stopped to rest, any remnants of feces or vomit etc, any places where the ground seems to indicate they may have stopped to tend to the baby or the dog (signs they poured water, changed or fed the baby, etc). Anything that might give a clue what happened, when they were last ok, when trouble struck, etc.

Even a note left behind might have happened at an earlier location -- such as if they then felt better and tried to move forward, but didn't get too far.

MOO

That sounds like a great idea...to chk the trail below.
Never know what they may find.

Hope they're reading here!!

 

[GatorFL]

IMO
If you calculate the amount of water required, added to the exertion it would take to carry that water, in the context of the ambient temperature (100+] enhanced by reflection from the trail surface, you don’t have a viable proposition.
There is no safety here, in those conditions. There was no safety already at 90 degrees.

I disagree. I hike often in 90+ degree weather, and it is frequently done all over the world. I live (and hike!) in South Florida where temps are over 90 degrees for 8 months and for 6 of those months humidity can be 80%+. It's really not a big deal if you're prepared and have water.

 

[GatorFL]

You might be on the right track with electrolyte imbalance… It doesn’t sound like the family had much water carrying capacity, but I wonder if they were replenishing electrolytes at all? Personally, I need Gatorade or similar when I’m hiking or hot, and there’s no way I’m hiking above 90, so I don’t have experience what it looks like if you have an electrolyte issue. Anyone?

2 adults and a dog dying simultaneously, yards from each other, from an electrolyte imbalance? Nah.

 

[robinmay]

This is such an interesting take. If I’m reading you right, your scenario is the dad was somehow incapacitated back towards the river in the valley, stayed behind, Ellen raced forward to get help. He then kept the baby and dog with him (it was her dog as seems from her Instagram so a risk of it running after her and getting lost/exhausted). Time goes by and he thinks something’s wrong. Makes the long, very slow, possibly painful walk up the trail, then sees her collapsed. He may then have simply collapsed himself possibly realising it was fatal, or perhaps too afraid to approach to confirm. Heat, dehydration, exhaustion, not thinking clearly then takes its toll.

There is one possible flaw in this scenario in that any ankle sprain would almost certainly be visibly treated (a compression bandage, say) but not necessarily. He was a big, fit guy and maybe a sock dipped in the cool water would’ve been enough. After all, they likely didn’t envisage him needing to put any weight on at that point.

Everything else tends to support it, though. The dog appears tethered to him likely to stop it running after her. There’s no express suggestion but she doesn’t appear to have carried anything on her other than a “phone and keys” (as I understand it). All indications are she was ahead in order to get help. The next question is why would she not have made it? Ok, she didn’t have water (that we know of), it was a very warm day, and a steep incline. But she was young, very fit, highly experienced, and all being well, it shouldn’t needed to have taken that long. So that then leads to the possibility something happened to her first. A previous underlying condition? A cardiac event? A muscle strain of her own? One assumes all these would be picked up in an autopsy but some might not, or maybe she was just suddenly overcome with exhaustion. Or perhaps she had spent a long time trying to get cellphone coverage moving back and forth on the peak as she didn’t want to leave her family for too long and then collapsed from panic, dehydration, heat stroke, etc.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts on that to share. That’s a very interesting and smart take, though, and shows the immense value of having many minds hit the same problem from lots of different angles. Apologies for the length!

Yes that is exactly what I was trying to say Thank you!

 

[d4i5y]

You might be on the right track with electrolyte imbalance… It doesn’t sound like the family had much water carrying capacity, but I wonder if they were replenishing electrolytes at all? Personally, I need Gatorade or similar when I’m hiking or hot, and there’s no way I’m hiking above 90, so I don’t have experience what it looks like if you have an electrolyte issue. Anyone?

I’m just wondering if perhaps they were low salt generally. Apart from my mum, I know about this for two reasons: I used to run and was eventually diagnosed with a mineral imbalance because of magnesium. It was so bad, I had to get shots over a six week period. My symptoms were strange heart palpitations, hair loss, etc. but it was mainly very subtle and took a long time. I would religiously drink four or more litres of water a day and the doctor said it was possible to drink too much water and flush out minerals in the process.

The other reason is my dad had a heart condition that saw him retain a lot of fluid. To treat this, they put him on diuretics that then left him in a state of complete disorientation to the point he had to be strapped to the bed he was so delirious. The doctor told us (i remember this very clearly), it was because the balance of sodium and potassium in his brain had been thrown right out. So then I finally understood my mother’s concoction: salt (sodium), orange juice (potassium). And it wasn’t just occasional; we had to have it every morning and she said it was just something westerners especially did “because they couldn’t handle the heat”.

So, I’m just wondering if maybe they hiked a lot, often in hot weather, and they even stayed well-hydrated but maybe they were low sodium generally and it all just tipped over. They seem to have known what they were doing though as hikers generally so it’s probably unlikely but I’m just mentioning this as a possible and also because it’s not something many know about.

Here is an interesting article in relation to excessive water intake in athletes, including an account of a female hiker who died as a result: Doctors warn hikers, other endurance athletes, and medical personnel about the risks of water intoxication

 

[NSamuelle]

I’m just wondering if perhaps they were low salt generally. Apart from my mum, I know about this for two reasons: I used to run and was eventually diagnosed with a mineral imbalance because of magnesium. It was so bad, I had to get shots over a six week period. My symptoms were strange heart palpitations, hair loss, etc. but it was mainly very subtle and took a long time. I would religiously drink four or more litres of water a day and the doctor said it was possible to drink too much water and flush out minerals in the process.

The other reason is my dad had a heart condition that saw him retain a lot of fluid. To treat this, they put him on diuretics that then left him in a state of complete disorientation to the point he had to be strapped to the bed he was so delirious. The doctor told us (i remember this very clearly), it was because the balance of sodium and potassium in his brain had been thrown right out. So then I finally understood my mother’s concoction: salt (sodium), orange juice (potassium). And it wasn’t just occasional; we had to have it every morning and she said it was just something westerners especially did “because they couldn’t handle the heat”.

So, I’m just wondering if maybe they hiked a lot, often in hot weather, and they even stayed well-hydrated but maybe they were low sodium generally and it all just tipped over. They seem to have known what they were doing though as hikers generally so it’s probably unlikely but I’m just mentioning this as a possible and also because it’s not something many know about.

Here is an interesting article in relation to excessive water intake in athletes, including an account of a female hiker who died as a result: Doctors warn hikers, other endurance athletes, and medical personnel about the risks of water intoxication

Hyponatremia (low sodium) may be evident on biochemical autopsy, but you need to be able to ballpark time of death to evaluate the vitreous sodium levels correctly. Sodium and potassium make the heart beat but are unfortunately tricky to measure post-mortem; for example, potassium overdose can be hard to detect because bodies are naturally hyperkalemic after death.

I don’t see how they could carry enough water to get hyponatremic though - the last case I recall was a “drink as much water as you can and keep your hands on a car to win it” challenge; leading to the discontinuation of water intake challenges. Edit: it has also happened when people try to “flush” their systems before a drug test - but the point I’m driving at is that it doesn’t happen casually.

 

[Figuring]

That's possible, but it seems unlikely to me. The family was found a little over 2 kilometers from the trail head. If Ellen had the energy to make it a kilometer up the trail--and if she still had the energy to walk a full kilometer back to the family--you would think she would try to continue to the car to get help.

Yes, you are probably right. I'm personally on the fence about what happened as far as her distance from him (1k was just a random number). I can't help but think about how I had heatstroke just over a month ago (from the "heatdome," & how I was utterly out of my mind. I was incapable of making any decisions, I couldn't find words, & I was forgetting thoughts within seconds. It felt like a drunken stupor.)

Perhaps they sat together on the trail & she was waiting for him to recover, maybe he took the baby off to try & cool down his core, & then he went unconscious, & she went to get help but it was just too late for her, too. I keep wondering if any prints can say anything, could it show 2 people having sat together, or indications of the dog having run around, etc.

 

[rahod1]

Does anyone here know how much water they were carrying? I think I saw they had a bladder that carried 3L? This would be woefully lacking for a 4 hr hike in hot weather. I found this:
" You may need to increase how much you drink as the temperature and intensity of the activity rise. For example, strenuous hiking in high heat may require that you drink 1 liter of water or more per hour"
For two adults..NOT INCLUDING Dog and child you would need about EIGHT LITERS for a 4HR period in hot conditions.
Hydration Basics

 

[annpats]

I disagree. I hike often in 90+ degree weather, and it is frequently done all over the world. I live (and hike!) in South Florida where temps are over 90 degrees for 8 months and for 6 of those months humidity can be 80%+. It's really not a big deal if you're prepared and have water.

For you, yes, it's OK. But that doesn't mean every hiker in Florida would be OK.
Some others would struggle.
Some others would be ill.

Some people don't like to leave their air conditioned car.
And that's OK too.
We're all different, and because of that, there are no hard and fast rules for individuals regarding heat/terrain/exertion. You are your own boss with that.

This whole forum is filled with stories of walkers, climbers, hikers, mountaineers and bushwhackers who'd been doing it all their lives, with the right equipment, in extreme heat, extreme cold and extreme terrain, where things have gone wrong.

Sometimes hikers don't think they are going to struggle until they do.
No-one wants to think our natural world will kill them, but it can and does.

And the hotter people go and harder people go, the more they increase that risk. A risk they may think won't matter.

 

[everybodhi]

If you're a serious hiker you've probably been on some lightly used trails. Some trails are also seasonal meaning in the off season they are much more lightly traveled than in season. Here in South Florida, we're in the off season because of temps and rain. My next scheduled hike is in a couple of weeks.

It is possible to hike in 100+ degree temps. You need lots of water, a head covering, cool rags and lots of breaks.

If you're going to hike in those temps, you may consider a cooling vest to keep your core temp from getting too high.
Best Cooling Vests For Running
They are available for dogs as well.
Choosing the Right Dog Cooling Vest | 3 Dog Cooling Vest Options

 

[mickey2942]

Now, this may seem to be out in left field...but I wonder if either one or both had Covid-19 this year.

I am wondering about unseen and undetected potential issues, that may affect the body, physical stress, physiological reaction that is more intense and extreme than what occurred to healthy adults who did not have Covid-19.

I think that we still don't know about the potential long term effects of Covid-19, and this line of inquiry should be considered.

 

[rahod1]

Here is a Hydration calculator for 6 miles...ave temp 90F and moderate difficulty. Results are 4L per person....very similar to what I found in my previous post.
8L total NOT taking infant and dog into consideration.
The default is 10MI and 70F. Just put in 6MI and 90F
Hydration Calculator - How Much Water do I Need when Hiking?

 

[rahod1]

Does anyone here know how much water they were carrying? I think I saw they had a bladder that carried 3L? This would be woefully lacking for a 4 hr hike in hot weather. I found this:
" You may need to increase how much you drink as the temperature and intensity of the activity rise. For example, strenuous hiking in high heat may require that you drink 1 liter of water or more per hour"
For two adults..NOT INCLUDING Dog and child you would need about EIGHT LITERS for a 4HR period in hot conditions.
Hydration Basics

Ok, I found that they had a Camelback Bladder.
"The family also had a backpack with a Camelback bladder that held a small amount of water"
john gerrish death — Mysterious Stories Blog — StrangeOutdoors.com
The biggest holds 3L
Buy Reservoirs, Water Bladders & More | CamelBak

 

[Speculaytor]

One of the first things that struck me is how untraveled this trail must be right now. They were found right ON the trail and not all that far from the trailhead (1.5 miles). If anyone else hiked that trail after their death, they would have found them, and logically, reported this to the authorities. So that means no one the rest of Sunday, all of Monday, or Tuesday until they were found were on that trail. Wow. I'm used to really busy hiking trails where they likely would have encountered someone even as trouble set in.

I do think this was heat stroke. The baby may have succumbed first, the parents racing to try and get back to the car, but both were overcome as well. I can't see any other explanation for this. It is so sad.

WOW, that makes a lot of sense. If the baby began to have distress, even succumb, then they may have begun to run, hurry to get help/to safety. The poor dog too. Dogs can't cool themselves off with sweating, and all of that fur. It's possible the dog became distressed and they were carrying the dog, and hurrying? The other is that they could have swam to cool off in the Merced River, which has toxic algae blooms.

 

[armchairagatha]

If this was indeed heat related, it is unfortunate that these very smart people had a fatal lapse in judgment. Jonathan was ex-google/current Snap engineer. Similar to Philip Kreycik who was Harvard/MIT educated who also succumbed to a heat stroke not too long ago by running during a heat wave.

 

[MntnHiker]

If you're a serious hiker you've probably been on some lightly used trails. Some trails are also seasonal meaning in the off season they are much more lightly traveled than in season. Here in South Florida, we're in the off season because of temps and rain. My next scheduled hike is in a couple of weeks.

It is possible to hike in 100+ degree temps. You need lots of water, a head covering, cool rags and lots of breaks.

I am a regular hiker and have been on lightly trafficked trails or trails where I maybe pass one person my entire hike. But they were only 1.5 miles from the trailhead, so not that far in, and this is like 2.5 days of no one hiking it. Is this considered a backcountry trail? I am not familiar with the area.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I am a regular hiker and have been on lightly trafficked trails or trails where I maybe pass one person my entire hike. But they were only 1.5 miles from the trailhead, so not that far in, and this is like 2.5 days of no one hiking it. Is this considered a backcountry trail? I am not familiar with the area.

What others have said is that this trail is steep/aggressive, and ever since the Ferguson Fire in 2018, not only is the forested vista gone but any shade along the trail is gone. So while some folks might still tackle it, fewer than used to, and hardly anyone would get out there in 100+ temperatures. MOO

 

[GatorFL]

If you're going to hike in those temps, you may consider a cooling vest to keep your core temp from getting too high.
Best Cooling Vests For Running
They are available for dogs as well.
Choosing the Right Dog Cooling Vest | 3 Dog Cooling Vest Options

The backpack is always so hot anyway. I've never seen anybody wear one of these while hiking in the heat.

 

[GatorFL]

I am a regular hiker and have been on lightly trafficked trails or trails where I maybe pass one person my entire hike. But they were only 1.5 miles from the trailhead, so not that far in, and this is like 2.5 days of no one hiking it. Is this considered a backcountry trail? I am not familiar with the area.

It's funny how close but remote some trails can be. Mostly Harmless was 5 miles from a fire station, and about a mile from a really well traveled trail. But that mile was an eternity. I guess it was the same for this family.

 

[everybodhi]

The backpack is always so hot anyway. I've never seen anybody wear one of these while hiking in the heat.

These are the opposite of hot, unlike a backpack.