CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #2

[GatorFL]

What others have said is that this trail is steep/aggressive, and ever since the Ferguson Fire in 2018, not only is the forested vista gone but any shade along the trail is gone. So while some folks might still tackle it, fewer than used to, and hardly anyone would get out there in 100+ temperatures. MOO

Yeah I think I saw a 1,500 elevation change over 1.5 miles. That's not scrambling (climbing up on your hands and knees) but that's a lot of elevation over that distance.

 

[GatorFL]

These are the opposite of hot, unlike a backpack.

Ok. But put a backpack over one and it's gonna be hot anyway I am guessing. Especially since some rely on evaporative cooling.

 

[everybodhi]

I am a regular hiker and have been on lightly trafficked trails or trails where I maybe pass one person my entire hike. But they were only 1.5 miles from the trailhead, so not that far in, and this is like 2.5 days of no one hiking it. Is this considered a backcountry trail? I am not familiar with the area.

When I drove through while visiting Yosemite, there was nothing that attracted us to stop the car, only scrub, blackened trees and radiating heat.
Within a few miles are some of the most beautiful trails on the planet, with lots of green trees and waterfalls.

 

[everybodhi]

Ok. But put a backpack over one and it's gonna be hot anyway I am guessing. Especially since some rely on evaporative cooling.

Evaporative cooling won't work in Florida humidity, you would need the frozen inserts

 

[EndoraXplorer]

I've been reading for a while but finally joining. This case breaks my heart in so many ways.

This was mentioned earlier in the thread, but both Ellen and Jon were Burners, which I am also. (Source: Ellen's IG.) One of the principles of Burning Man is radical self-reliance. You really do have to do a tremendous amount of preparation and be very self-reliant. The Playa is an incredibly hostile environment with extreme weather conditions. It can get into the 100s during the day, the temp can drop into the 30s at night, there's no water unless you bring it yourself, etc. One year, there was a dust storm that lasted six hours and we spent most of that time holding down structures to prevent them from flying away. So for me personally, I've been out in nature and caught myself thinking: Well I've been out to the Playa and I made it and this is not even close to as hot or harsh or dangerous. Obviously, I don't know what Jon and Ellen were thinking, I just wanted to add a little bit of my perspective as a fellow Burner.

So despite being self-reliant and prepared, I've personally made some really unwise (in hindsight) decisions when going out in nature. Not bringing enough water, pushing past the point of exhaustion for whatever reason (such as needing to be somewhere else at a certain time), the hike taking much longer than expected and getting caught out after dark, etc. On all those adventures, I started out with the best intentions and thought I was prepared. I know I have been very fortunate, and I also know that all it takes is one "wrong turn" for things to go haywire. I think Jon and Ellen probably were very prepared and something went unexpectedly wrong.

 

[annpats]

Evaporative cooling won't work in Florida humidity, you would need the frozen inserts

For dealing with Florida, I personally would need to be inserted into a block of ice....and that's without any hiking.

 

[wary]

Yeah I think I saw a 1,500 elevation change over 1.5 miles. That's not scrambling (climbing up on your hands and knees) but that's a lot of elevation over that distance.

Come to think of it, is that 1.5 miles as the crow flies, or 1.5 miles walking along all the switchbacks?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Come to think of it, is that 1.5 miles as the crow flies, or 1.5 miles walking along all the switchbacks?

It looks like 1.5 including walking along the switchbacks, according to the map. imo

 

[rahod1]

I've been reading for a while but finally joining. This case breaks my heart in so many ways.
I think Jon and Ellen probably were very prepared and something went unexpectedly wrong.

I've posted here that they probably had only 3L of water. They were found with a Camelback Bladder (I posted a link). I also posted a link of those available and 3L was the biggest for the bladders. Some water was still in it when they were found!
I also posted TWO links that show 8L would be required for 2 adults on a four hour hike under hot challenging conditions I didn't even take into account the infant and dog. It appears they weren't prepared for the conditions ....heat..lack of shade...steep terrain on a 3 mile leg with an infant and dog in tow. Very sad.

 

[everybodhi]

For dealing with Florida, I personally would need to be inserted into a block of ice....and that's without any hiking.

This might work..
Keeps out the bugs too!

 

[RickshawFan]

That struck me as well; it isn’t very “structured” so the baby would probably be lying on the ground once Jonathan removed the kangaroo bag from his body. If she was still in the bag and not lying against the fabric I wonder if they thought heat was an issue for her (i.e., why leave her wrapped up in the bag if it was?).

A "kangaroo bag" that you wear on the front would be baking hot for the wearer, and suffocatingly hot for the child, since they'd be absorbing each other's body heat.
That thing is totally inappropriate for hiking IMO. You trip, and the baby is crushed. The baby was also plenty big enough for a structured carrier that you put on your back. I hope the parents had the wisdom to have been using one of these. Someone upthread posted a Deuter, and it wasn't a "kangaroo bag" (IIRC Deuter doesn't even make those), but a backpack.

 

[RickshawFan]

I think it would take more than a few hours of walking in hot weather before an electrolyte imbalance would incapacitate an otherwise healthy person. It's possible, but heat stroke seems far more likely.

Salt imbalance can cause disabling cramps. See this on tennis players, who are active in hot temperatures: Heat cramps: fluid and electrolyte challenges during tennis in the heat - ScienceDirect

 

[Infidell]

I haven't read through most of the posts (there's a lot) so apologies in advance, but here's one person's take for what it's worth:

- Generally speaking, groups of people and their critters don't just die, all at once, unless it's Pompeii, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki.
- No evidence suggests these people or their pup were previously soggy, such that a random "algae bloom" took 'em out. The natural "gas" theory seems highly unlikely.
- People can live for many days without water. This wasn't many days, even if it was hot.
- Humans are capable of horrific acts.
- They appear to have died contemporaneously. Infant was with dad, while everybody's dying?

Someone poisoned the family, seems to me. <modsnip>

 

[bpeterson912]

I haven't read through most of the posts (there's a lot) so apologies in advance, but here's one person's take for what it's worth:

- Generally speaking, groups of people and their critters don't just die, all at once, unless it's Pompeii, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki.
- No evidence suggests these people or their pup were previously soggy, such that a random "algae bloom" took 'em out. The natural "gas" theory seems highly unlikely.
- People can live for many days without water. This wasn't many days, even if it was hot.
- Humans are capable of horrific acts.
- They appear to have died contemporaneously. Infant was with dad, while everybody's dying?

Someone poisoned the family, seems to me. <modsnip>

- I agree that groups of people and their pets generally don't just die all at once. I think it's highly unlikely they all died at the same time. Their deaths could have occurred several hours (or even more than a day) apart.

- I agree that the "algae bloom" theory--while certainly worth exploring--is very unlikely to be the primary cause of anyone's death.

- People can live for many days without water, but almost no one is speculating that the family died of dehydration. A far more likely culprit is heat stroke. The high temperature that day was 109 degrees, and it was over 100 degrees between about 9:30 a.m. and 5:30 p.m. If you don't understand heat stroke or how lethal it is, I suggest browsing the posts in this thread and the first thread.

- Yes, humans are capable of horrific acts, but thus far there's been zero evidence indicating that anyone committed such an act here. Sure, anything is possible, and law enforcement should follow the evidence where it takes them, but in the complete absence of such evidence I'm not going to speculate <modsnip>

 

[rahod1]

I haven't read through most of the posts (there's a lot) so apologies in advance, but here's one person's take for what it's worth:

- Generally speaking, groups of people and their critters don't just die, all at once, unless it's Pompeii, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki.
- No evidence suggests these people or their pup were previously soggy, such that a random "algae bloom" took 'em out. The natural "gas" theory seems highly unlikely.
- People can live for many days without water. This wasn't many days, even if it was hot.
- Humans are capable of horrific acts.
- They appear to have died contemporaneously. Infant was with dad, while everybody's dying?

Someone poisoned the family, seems to me. <modsnip>

I have to admit, when I first heard about this that was my initial take. But after having done a bit of *research* , I've completely ruled out that scenario. You can read through some of my posts as to why. Many assume they all died *at once* when that probably isn't the case at all. Heat slowly attacked each victim and just because they were all found in close proximity to each other doesn't mean they perished simultaneously. I won't elaborate....but many scenarios have been posted here on that subject. Bottom line the simplest explanation is often the best
AKA OCCAM'S RAZOR>>>HEAT STROKE<< They simply weren't prepared and I have suggested they were woefully short on water for the KNOWN CONDITIONS at the time. MOO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I haven't read through most of the posts (there's a lot) so apologies in advance, but here's one person's take for what it's worth:

<snip>

Aw heck, we're only at the beginning of thread #2!

That's not a knife;

Spoiler: THIS

CO - CO - Suzanne Morphew, 49, Chaffee County, 10 May 2020 #78 *ARREST*

is a knife.

It really is worth reading at least a few pages if not a few threads on a case before commenting on it. MOO of course.

 

[Snoopster]

I thought I read that the family had moved to the area fairly recently. Can we presume that they'd hiked this trail before and were familiar with it? Perhaps they weren't.

Yes, they have traveled to many exotic places, but that doesn't mean that they were trail smart. I've traveled lots of places and no doubt naively could have found myself in a situation that was risky.

People have talked about how the couple has AllTrails app (I believe), but that doesn't mean a lot. I have AllTrails too, but only since March of this year. I have gone hiking regularly since April and got more and more confident. But then I've had a couple of very minor incidents...which gave me a jolt about the risk of hiking. In my case...hiking alone.

But my point is it is easy to get overconfident and equally easy to make mistakes.

(And, yes, my shoulder and jaw are healing nicely from my most recent face-plant after a simple trip on a root while trail running. Thank you for asking. )

 

[Knox]

He said the scene where the family was found lacked any immediate clues as to what happened, with no signs of foul play or traumatic injuries.

Mr Briese said the baby was in a backpack carrier with the dog near her father but attached to him, while her mum was 30 yards away.
Final calls on Brit dad's phone may hold key to how family died on hiking trip

-And-

There were no signs of crime at the scene and no traumatic injuries to the bodies. The sheriff said Miju was “in a kangaroo bag close to her father, but not tied to her father,” and Hellen was located about 30 meters away. Their dog, Oksi, was lying next to the baby.

<modsnip: Not an approved source>

Both of these stories were posted a few pages back. Each of them speaks about Miju being in a backpack/kangaroo bag near her Dad. One even goes so far as to say she was not "tied" to him.

I've not seen this information quoted as coming from Sheriff Briese in any US news story? Literary license?

 

[Infidell]

- I agree that groups of people and their pets generally don't just die all at once. I think it's highly unlikely they all died at the same time. Their deaths could have occurred hours (or even a couple of days) apart.

- I agree that the "algae bloom" theory--while certainly worth exploring--is very unlikely to be the primary cause of anyone's death.

- People can live for many days without water, but almost no one is speculating that the family died of dehydration. A far more likely culprit is heat stroke. The high temperature that day was 109 degrees, and it was over 100 degrees between about 9:30 a.m. and 5:30 p.m. If you don't understand heat stroke or how lethal it is, I suggest browsing the posts in this thread and the first thread.

- Yes, humans are capable of horrific acts, but thus far there's been zero evidence indicating that anyone committed such an act here. Sure, anything is possible, and law enforcement should follow the evidence where it takes them, but in the complete absence of such evidence I'm not going to speculate that a mother or father murdered their family.

Hey thanks for your thoughts. My responses follow.

Strikes me a dying even a couple of days apart is unlikely. Your loved one, maybe with a baby, is sick to the point they can't move suddenly - you move. You don't wait for a chopper. They were all found together. Maybe they decided not to, but if you're right on the trail, seems to me you move.

Heat stroke en masse? This was a wooded area or near one, as I recall. Dogs, babies, and folks shouldn't all drop off from heat stroke within moments or even hours of each other with water sources nearby capable of giving them algae bloom or whatever. Or at least it's waaaaaaay off the scale of likelihood.

I disagree with you relative to your thoughts about "zero evidence". <modsnip> You've got an entirely dead family here - plus the dog, on or near a trafficked trail. I've seen at least some speculation about murder. No third-party hangs around to murder the dog too, unless the dog's a problem. Not a mark on the dog. No.

You take out the dog because it's best for the dog, so it won't suffer in your absence.

I'm a lawyer, licensed in two states, 25 years now in practice. I deal in evidence daily. And you're staring at a ton of admissible evidence. Probative value? I agree, there's more to do here before drawing conclusions. I'm just sayin', I've got a fair sense of where this is heading.

Happy to be wrong, by the way. Maybe.

 

[bpeterson912]

I'm a lawyer, licensed in two states, 25 years now in practice. I deal in evidence daily. And you're staring at a ton of admissible evidence. Probative value? I agree, there's more to do here before drawing conclusions. I'm just sayin', I've got a fair sense of where this is heading.

Congrats on being admitted to practice law in two states, but what, exactly, is the evidence that supports alleging that either parent committed murder? A couple of paragraphs above, you wrote that you've "seen at least some speculation about murder." I'm sure you have. But as you know, that speculation isn't evidence. What evidence are you talking about?