CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #2

[Figuring]

Can't we assume and agree that heat played a part in whatever happened? Either it was the full culprit or part culprit, imo. And if they were in the throes of heat stroke, few rational decisions would have been made at the end of their lives. Finding Dad and Baby in the middle of the trail may have been what gave LE the feeling that it was a mystery. But from what I've read about heat stroke, it progresses quickly and attacks the brain. The brain, then the body just stops.

--

As someone who has had a TBI, one of my major symptoms was intolerance of heat and sunlight. A mild sunny day could make me feel crazed without a hat and sunglasses. Even 3 years later, I still suffer those symptoms, which my doctor says are not unusual.

Thank you for sharing your experience, & I'm sorry that happened to you. I had a TBI a few years ago, too. Since then, I started working in cognitive assessment for psychologists, assessing function after TBI. While for sure everyone's outcome, triggers, & tolerances are different, if any prolonged symptoms become exacerbated, it can be truly debilitating. It does seem based on their prior hikes that she wasn't overly sensitive to sun, but it seems to me that she could have still exceeded her tolerance level in these conditions.

As always, JMO.

 

[wary]

I think this makes a lot of sense. If Philip Kreycik knew to get under a tree even in the deepest delirium of his slow gait and zigzag walking, I believe John Gerrish (sitting up) stopped in a bit of shade. I hope LE considers this idea of timing their demise.

I believe that the post you quoted isn’t suggesting that Mr Gerrish was in the shade—I believe it’s speculating that he was sitting upright to try to create a bit of shade for the baby and the dog, since there was no shade on that burned-off hillside.

 

[jonjon747]

Can't we assume and agree that heat played a part in whatever happened? Either it was the full culprit or part culprit, imo. And if they were in the throes of heat stroke, few rational decisions would have been made at the end of their lives. Finding Dad and Baby in the middle of the trail may have been what gave LE the feeling that it was a mystery. But from what I've read about heat stroke, it progresses quickly and attacks the brain. The brain, then the body just stops.

--

As someone who has had a TBI, one of my major symptoms was intolerance of heat and sunlight. A mild sunny day could make me feel crazed without a hat and sunglasses. Even 3 years later, I still suffer those symptoms, which my doctor says are not unusual.

The guy was found sitting on the trail exposed to a direct sunlight.
I don't understand why they didn't go rest under a tree or something.
Both dying of heatstroke around the same time also seem highly unlikely.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

The guy was found sitting on the trail exposed to a direct sunlight.
I don't understand why they didn't go rest under a tree or something.
Both dying of heatstroke around the same time also seem highly unlikely.

As has been mentioned many times now, there was no useful shade from trees there as it all burned in 2018. MOO

 

[woods]

Golden retrievers had increased risk of heatstroke because of their thick “double coats”. A thick coat acts as insulation, trapping hot air and limiting heat loss if the dog overheats. It would be like having to wear a thermal jacket during a heatwave.

Large dogs, in general, were more likely to develop heatstroke than dogs under 10kg, with giant breed dogs (weighing over 50kg) three times more likely to develop heatstroke.

Dogs aged over 2 years old were also at greater risk, with elderly dogs (over 12 years) most likely to develop heatstroke. This is because younger dogs may be more active, while older dogs with reduced cardiovascular and respiratory function and may struggle to lose excess heat as efficiently.

Exercising in hot weather can be just as dangerous and can prove fatal. Owners of dogs identified as being at particular risk of heatstroke should be especially cautious and should avoid any situation that could put the dog in danger from overheating.

A dog’s body temperature is normally between 101°F and 102°F. Dogs regulate their body temperature by panting, expelling heat out. If he can not expel the heat fast enough, his body temperature rises. A rise of 3 degrees to a temperature of 105°F is all it takes to send your dog into a dangerous situation. At this temperature, the dog can no longer reduce his body heat by panting. He can no longer satisfy his body’s increasing demand for oxygen. His temperature will continue to rise.

When the temperature hits 108°F, the heart, brain, liver, kidneys, and intestinal tracts start to begin breaking down at a cellular level, and damage can progress at an alarming rate. Even immediate treatment and effective cooling to bring his temperature down can leave the dog with internal damage that may affect his health in long term ways.

Nine dog breeds at higher risk of heatstroke – and what you can do to prevent it

Heat Stroke - Yankee Golden Retriever Rescue, Inc.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I don't think they died of heat stroke or poisoned water or CO2 from mines.
Autopsy showed absolutely nothing, not a single hint of anything.
Until the toxicology result is out,
I'm going with death caused by unknown supernatural force or something like possessed by an evil spirit.
Besides, the place is called Devil's Gulch.
It's difficult to take all 4 lives at the same time at the same spot.
Dog would've wandered around, and one of the three human beings would've shown something in autopsy.

BBM
I think LE, the coroner’s office, the media, and everyone here is looking at the science involved, the challenges of the hike, and possible human errors that may have led to this tragedy; things we can equate based on known factors. IMO

 

[annpats]

They were experienced hikers. I don't think she'd be mentally weak in any kind of circumstances. Unless you know her personally, there's no way of knowing how she might've could've reacted under stressful situations.
Do you really believe that she went only 30 meters out from where her family was before passing out?
How long did it take her to get to that 30 meter distance? It'd take most people only about a minute or two to get to 30 meters(~100 ft) of uphill trail.
Healthy people don't just drop dead like that altegother.

Well, Ellen had noted on her social media accounts she has a TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury) due to an accident and also another undisclosed heath issue.

And no, we don't think she only went 30 metres from her car before passing out....we think she did a huge hike in 38°C + heat and passed out and died before she got BACK to her car.

 

[wary]

The guy was found sitting on the trail exposed to a direct sunlight.
I don't understand why they didn't go rest under a tree or something.
Both dying of heatstroke around the same time also seem highly unlikely.

A: When you have severe heat stroke, “resting under a tree,” doesn’t do much to help.

B: What tree?

C: Heat stroke is not conducive to thinking clearly.

D: There’s nothing more surprising about having two people die on this sort of an ill-advised hike, than if two people drowned if their boat capsized on a lake and they didn’t know how to swim.

All my own opinions.

 

[bpeterson912]

The guy was found sitting on the trail exposed to a direct sunlight.
I don't understand why they didn't go rest under a tree or something.
Both dying of heatstroke around the same time also seem highly unlikely.

See my heatstroke story here. When my friend suffered heatstroke during a long uphill hike in the hot sun, he was essentially paralyzed. He could not walk, stand up, or even lift his head. The only way to move him was to carry him--which would have been impossible for me had someone else not come along.

We don't know, of course, who in the family experienced heatstroke first (or whether anyone experienced heatstroke at all). But if Jonathan was struck first and was unable to move, I think it's quite unlikely that Ellen--even if she were feeling fine--would have been able to carry him to shade.

 

[dalsglen]

Very often, with those backpack carriers, it's the Dad who carries the baby. Note the huge difference in size between him and her. Those backpacks with the baby end up quite heavy, maybe 30 lbs in this situation. [Though they could have had one of Deuter's lighter, smaller, models.] Also, these are "one size fits all" packs; they tend not to fit small women well at all: they are bulky and much too long. The weight of the baby tends to be a bit far from the body compared to most regular (non-baby) backpacks as well. The upshot of this is that they jerk your back every step; this is very common in average or below average women. IME [This happens a lot with several popular Osprey backpacks, too. When you go hiking, watch women wearing overnight packs, and you will see many jerk every step. IME. Guys generally don't have this problem, since they have the upper body strength to compensate for it.]
Bottom-line, IMO the carrier would have been very unlikely to end up on her back.

but the baby was in a kangaroo carrier, which is just a sling, no? much bulkier/awkward and different weighting than a proper backpack carrier imo

I usually always wore the baby carrier in our house, even with our twins, it fit far better on me (probably just more used to lugging kids about). I'm 110lbs at 5'5" compared to my husband's 15 stone 6ft frame. But my lower backs gubbed anyway so what's some more squashing eh?!

 

[dalsglen]

You are probably acclimated to the heat. I’m not so sure if this couple was used to the extremes. He is from northern England. High temps there are only around 70 f during the summer. That is considered a heat wave there! The couple lived in the mild climate of San Francisco before moving to Mariposa County.

Oh behave, granted its typically cold, but us Brits don't just survive on 20 degree weather, nor is it a year wave, plenty of us travel abroad extensively. I've hiked the middle East desert quite a lot for example and I'm just your run of the mill low income Scottish person.

Jonathan wasn't totally unknown to the ca weather, he had been there years. But fwiw, I've visited san Fran twice in august/September and wished I'd been at home where it's warmer lol

 

[Countem]

RSBM

but the baby was in a kangaroo carrier, which is just a sling, no? much bulkier/awkward and different weighting than a proper backpack carrier imo

Briese (the sheriff) said: “The child was in a backpack carrier near the dad, but not on the dad” not in a kangaroo carrier.

Phone could hold key to how family and dog died on California hike | The Times

 

[Tower]

Also, these are "one size fits all" packs; they tend not to fit small women well at all: they are bulky and much too long. The weight of the baby tends to be a bit far from the body compared to most regular (non-baby) backpacks as well. The upshot of this is that they jerk your back every step; this is very common in average or below average women. RSBM

As a tiny female, I can vouch for 3 baby backpacks I’ve used (Kelty, Deuter, Osprey) that were adjustable for my height (slide up and down like a drawer) and comfortable enough for long hikes with up-to-4-year olds. If the small females you know are jerking around, please have them get properly fitted in an outdoor store; your description sounds excruciating!

Having said that, adjusting the spine and all straps to fit this extremely tall dad down to fit the tiny mom is NOT quick and easy and I cannot imagine doing it on a hot trail in distress. I usually deferred to my much-stronger husband when possible until we had too many kids.

Bottom-line, IMO the carrier would have been very unlikely to end up on her back. RSBM

100% agree. Extremely unlikely. Moo

 

[RickshawFan]

The guy was found sitting on the trail exposed to a direct sunlight.
I don't understand why they didn't go rest under a tree or something.
Both dying of heatstroke around the same time also seem highly unlikely.

There aren't any trees.

 

[drama_farmer]

Is the general consensus that the family died during the day on Sunday?
Has anyone considered the possibility that much lower overnight Temps may have also contributed to the deaths?
If already weakened /incapacitated by heat-related illness, will a body be further stressed by hypothermia?

 

[Tower]

Is the general consensus that the family died during the day on Sunday?
Has anyone considered the possibility that much lower overnight Temps may have also contributed to the deaths?
If already weakened /incapacitated by heat-related illness, will a body be further stressed by hypothermia?

At about 70 degrees F overnight, I think the daytime highs were the problem. If they were healthy enough to last until late at night, I think they could have made a push for the car. Moo

 

[bpeterson912]

Is the general consensus that the family died during the day on Sunday?
Has anyone considered the possibility that much lower overnight Temps may have also contributed to the deaths?
If already weakened /incapacitated by heat-related illness, will a body be further stressed by hypothermia?

I don't think there's a general consensus when the family died. All we know for sure at this point is that they were all dead by midday Tuesday, when they were found. Some or all of the family may have still been alive on Monday.

That said, hypothermia seems quite unlikely. The low temperature early Monday morning was 73 degrees, and the temperature was in the 80s for most of the night. Those aren't temperatures that would ordinarily result in hypothermia.

 

[RickshawFan]

As a tiny female, I can vouch for 3 baby backpacks I’ve used (Kelty, Deuter, Osprey) that were adjustable for my height (slide up and down like a drawer) and comfortable enough for long hikes with up-to-4-year olds. If the small females you know are jerking around, please have them get properly fitted in an outdoor store; your description sounds excruciating!

Having said that, adjusting the spine and all straps to fit this extremely tall dad down to fit the tiny mom is NOT quick and easy and I cannot imagine doing it on a hot trail in distress. I usually deferred to my much-stronger husband when possible until we had too many kids.


100% agree. Extremely unlikely. Moo

It sounds as though you're that rare petite woman who can comfortably and safely wear a baby pack and not get jerked around. This is especially a problem with certain brands/styles.
I am speaking from 20 years experience as a professional pack fitter. I have professionally fit over 2000 high end backpacks, including baby carriers. I agree everyone who has a pack for hiking (I even like to fit day packs to people) should get it fit professionally. This is a safety issue.
A good babypack fitter will demonstrate how to make adjustments from one partner to the other so it can be done quickly and on the fly. S/he will also make sure the baby fits safely in the baby pack (you'd be surprised!).
In sum, I believe, as I mentioned, it is very unlikely the mom in this case was going to be wearing a backpack baby carrier. In that heat and climb, yep, heatstroke.

 

[rahod1]

It sounds like they were prepared with more water than the bladder.

This Daily Mail article reports:

Samples from their water bottles have also been sent to toxicology labs, and a necropsy on their family dog has been planned.

Good find. Not sure if this implies that they had sufficient water though. So far it still appears the main source was a single 3L Camel Back bladder and they would have needed 8L for a 4hr hike in hot challenging conditions (I already posted links on this earlier). This doesn't even account for the infant and dog either. It may also be that *water bottles* was simply an interpretation made by the author and may or may not be accurate. Still kudos for finding this!

 

[rahod1]

Someone wrote (2015) about their experience hiking the same trail.
Hiking on the Savage Lundy Trail | Sierra News Online

Nice find. Looks like that hike didn't cover the steep trail up the hill on the other side where the family was found. Also the elevation change (back up the same trail) was less than 500 Ft. Weather conditions were much cooler and lots of shade (before the fire). However this quote is telling:

" I would not want to do this hike on a warm day. This trail is not for everyone though."

....given that this hike was MUCH less challenging than the one Gerrish family experienced.