CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #4

[Lex Parsimoniae]

I'm still not clear on body placement. Ellen was nearest their car or farthest away?
TIA

According to the sheriff: "The husband was in a seated position, the child beside him along with the dog, and the wife just a little farther up the hill." Uphill is closer to the truck.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

In the 2007 local adventure story I posted a while back and will repost again, the writer mentions that the trail down to the river accommodates 4-wheel drive vehicles. He encounters two men camping at the river, who drive up the trail in their Jeep. I would assume LE would see tracks if a vehicle had travelled the path recently. But that's one scenario I haven't heard discussed, and it would be interesting to ask LE that question. Imagine if nefarious individuals encountered the family on the way down, and like @Pumphouse363 has written, they feared going up the same way, or individuals drove the family down to the river against their will and dropped them off. I realize this is grasping at straws but had to toss it out. Perhaps someone here knows if vehicles are still allowed on the HC and SC trails. IMO the family died from heat-exhaustion, but it's hard to imagine why they set forth on a trail for a Sunday outing that locals will not set foot on in July and August.

People misperceive microclimates all the time, esp as the climate is changing. Jon had some familiarity with part of the trail from before the fire and the HC side is a bit more shaded. I don't think they thought it was a death defying risk, nor did Kreycik. Esp for people who move quickly, they can get far from help before they realize they need it and the trip down HC was downhill. Had they started down SL they may have perceived the advisability differently. I think they got through the loop on their own power, I doubt anyone drove them or forced them there by some means. Jon had researched it the day before and they were dressed for hiking with the baby in a frame backpack and their own truck parked at the trailhead.

We all make mistakes and can misjudge risk, consider common traffic accidents for example. And we do not tend to think of activities closer to home as very risky, an article posted on an earlier thread said SAR is often called for day hikers because those on longer trips tend to plan differently. It is all fairly normal human error, many have died from heat this summer.

It would save lives if there was more public education around the risks of both heat and of hiking. The signs described in Australia sound very useful, I have not personally seen such signs in the US in national parks. Heat stress leading to death is not uncommon in NPs. A Dozen Ways to Die (backpacker.com) All MOO only. May they all RIP, very sad.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

DBM

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

Yes - I understand your thinking on this. But when I read about the effects of heatstroke it suggests that the disorientation happens so quickly I wonder how Jon had time or forethought to remove the backpack and place it next to him?

Having worn framed backpacks, including with children in them, it would be easy and quick for him to remove it, which would then facilitate him being able to sit down on the trail to rest. I am not sure it is possible to sit on the ground wearing a framed pack, but he was pretty tall, still think it likely had to come off for him to sit on the ground.

Heat stress occurs quickly but not instantaneously, one would have an urge to sit and taking the pack off would be part of that, esp if they wanted to check on the baby. Jon would not have a way to see her with the carrier on his back and Ellen may have been too petite to assess the baby while Jon was wearing her. So, several reasons to swing the backpack carrier off, which takes seconds. HTH, MOO.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

If the dog was "attached", it wouldn't have to be with a leash. It could be something makeshift. IIRC EC wasn't used to hiking with her dog leashed. This is why I'm surmising the dog was loose, but showed up with dad and baby. Dad improvises a leash.

I think they may have leashed the dog due to the algae warning. MOO. When E's IG was still up there were photos of the dog on and off leash.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Yes - I understand your thinking on this. But when I read about the effects of heatstroke it suggests that the disorientation happens so quickly I wonder how Jon had time or forethought to remove the backpack and place it next to him?

The baby carrier/backpack was sitting on the ground, ergo, it was removed; it wasn't strapped to one of the adults. The inescapable conclusion is that there was sufficient time and forethought to remove it. The shoulder strap adjustment would show who had been carrying it, most likely JG. The track evidence would give some clues as to what else happened, were there a lot of footprints and impressions from kneeling beside the dog and baby carrier, or just a few? Were there dog footprints leading to the scene, or was there a gap, showing the dog was carried? We'll probably never get that level of detail.

 

[jonjon747]

Having worn framed backpacks, including with children in them, it would be easy and quick for him to remove it, which would then facilitate him being able to sit down on the trail to rest. I am not sure it is possible to sit on the ground wearing a framed pack, but he was pretty tall, still think it likely had to come off for him to sit on the ground.

Heat stress occurs quickly but not instantaneously, one would have an urge to sit and taking the pack off would be part of that, esp if they wanted to check on the baby. Jon would not have a way to see her with the carrier on his back and Ellen may have been too petite to assess the baby while Jon was wearing her. So, several reasons to swing the backpack carrier off, which takes seconds. HTH, MOO.

If they intended to sit down and rest a bit with no shade around, that means they weren't struggling so much with extreme heat at that particular moment or of how their bodies were found.
There's really no sign of any heat stroke the way I see them positioned.
It appears they never pushed to the limit to a point of getting disoriented and wandering off senselessly.
They were under control the way I see it and something else caught them by surprise is I think more plausible than overheat killing them all without a sign of struggle.
MOO

 

[Pumphouse363]

Does that apply to their initial decision to hike down a steep trail (HC is still steep) with baby and dog given initial conditions (Temp 85 and climbing)?

Yes it does.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Regarding heat signage in a National Forest. . . .

There are great differences in National Forests and National Parks. For one, NF are part of the Department of Agriculture. NP are part of the Department of the Interior. There are many articles on the difference of the two public areas, which you can google for yourself. (I'll cite one here.) People are drawn to NF for the very things they're not. They are multiple use areas with fewer restrictions, fewer hikers and people in general, many more access points, often free access with no payment. NF have far fewer employees, and they are responsible for logging, fishing, and many other commercial activities as others here have noted, as well as the recreators.

So it's unlikely there will ever be more warnings in these areas. They are oddly wilder and less wild at the same time. There may be fewer hikers but there could be miners, loggers, cattle or herds people (goats and turkeys are raised on Pt Reyes CA National Seashore). From my limited experience, national forests and seashores feel very wild. Although they have fewer regulations for hikers, it has seemed to me that hikers are fewer in them.

Maybe this conversation has come up before, but I think it's important to note why illegal growers might choose a national forest over a national park, or why hikers can expect fewer trail markers in them. I have been lost hiking and driving in National Forests. Scarily so in one instance where a road turned into a trail, and our car barely made it through to the other side. The map indicated a gravel road, but it was barely wider than our car and it because a series of death-defying switchbacks. To come out on a paved road was one of my life moments of great relief.

The Department of Agriculture! Who knew.

Meet the Forest Service | US Forest Service

 

[Auntie Cipation]

If they intended to sit down and rest a bit with no shade around, that means they weren't struggling so much with extreme heat at that particular moment or of how their bodies were found.
There's really no sign of any heat stroke the way I see them positioned.
It appears they never pushed to the limit to a point of getting disoriented and wandering off senselessly.
They were under control the way I see it and something else caught them by surprise is I think more plausible than overheat killing them all without a sign of struggle.
MOO

I can't imagine what sort of "struggle" you think would ensue as someone is overtaken by heat. Can you elaborate? What would you expect to see?

Personally I envision someone feeling lightheaded, then dizzy and disoriented. They might stumble onto their knees and from there sit down -- after removing their pack not just for their own comfort but to check on the baby (and place the baby in the shade of their own body) as well as to check the water supply in the bladder.

They might or might not be aware of the magnitude of the danger facing them. But even if they were, what could they do in response? They can't just decide to sprint to the vehicle, if they are already maxxed out on energy just trudging up a steep hill. There is no shade available nearby. Personally I think a person in that situation might think stopping to rest "for just a moment" might help them to muster the energy needed to continue.

MOO

 

[Yvettea]

Yikes.


This case does just go on and on.

Maybe next week we will hear some official news. For everyone’s sake near and far let’s hope so.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

I can't imagine what sort of "struggle" you think would ensue as someone is overtaken by heat. Can you elaborate? What would you expect to see?

Personally I envision someone feeling lightheaded, then dizzy and disoriented. They might stumble onto their knees and from there sit down -- after removing their pack not just for their own comfort but to check on the baby (and place the baby in the shade of their own body) as well as to check the water supply in the bladder.

They might or might not be aware of the magnitude of the danger facing them. But even if they were, what could they do in response? They can't just decide to sprint to the vehicle, if they are already maxxed out on energy just trudging up a steep hill. There is no shade available nearby. Personally I think a person in that situation might think stopping to rest "for just a moment" might help them to muster the energy needed to continue.

MOO

Agree, this makes sense and agree from my perspective as someone who has had a heat stress experience. Like the runner Kreycik, he never got up again.

 

[Pumphouse363]

According to the sheriff: "The husband was in a seated position, the child beside him along with the dog, and the wife just a little farther up the hill." Uphill is closer to the truck.

I would be interested to know where this information in quotations originated? Did anyone actually hear the Sheriff say it in any statement or is that what has been reported by the media?

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

I would be interested to know where this information in quotations originated? Did anyone actually hear the Sheriff say it in any statement or is that what has been reported by the media?

Not one clue Chronicle article. I've repeatedly posted that, and quoted from it. You can also search for gerrish seated position, you'll get quite a few hits, some of which say "according to the Chronicle", so that may be the original source.

 

[Pumphouse363]

Not one clue Chronicle article. I've repeatedly posted that, and quoted from it. You can also search for gerrish seated position, you'll get quite a few hits, some of which say "according to the Chronicle", so that may be the original source.

I’m sorry you’ve had to repeat yourself. I don’t subscribe to the SF Chronicle and, since there are no other sources stating this, I’m not sure of its authenticity. I was asking in case anyone else could verify the information other than quoting the SF chronicle. I’m of the opinion that members of the family will be following up on incorrect reporting by the media. MOO

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

From the San Francisco Chronicle article cited above ⬆︎ the reporter Matthias Gafni reports "About 1.5 miles down the switchbacks, around 11 a.m. Tuesday, the team found the family in the middle of the trail. The husband was in a seated position, the child beside him along with the dog, and the wife just a little farther up the hill. Briese said they believe the family was returning to their truck." All of Gafni's facts are attributed to Sheriff Briese. Whether from a briefing or interview is not clear. However, Gafni visited Mariposa and visited the trail. He took photographs and interviewed townspeople. The Chronicle also has a video on youtube of the story and the area.

Gafni covers many CA outdoors stories and has an excellent reputation. I can't imagine he used hearsay. It had to have come from Sheriff Briese, and if I were family, I'd ask the Sheriff pointblank about details in the Chronicle.

Recently Gafni reported a miraculous story of a lost hiker who was found at the last minute, close to death: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2021/hiker-peak-of-desperation/ It's behind a paywall but if you hit "print" fast you can get a pdf or if you turn off javascript for a bit.

 

[Yvettea]

I’m sorry you’ve had to repeat yourself. I don’t subscribe to the SF Chronicle and, since there are no other sources stating this, I’m not sure of its authenticity. I was asking in case anyone else could verify the information other than quoting the SF chronicle. I’m of the opinion that members of the family will be following up on incorrect reporting by the media. MOO

IMO it isn’t unusual for misinformation to creep into the reporting.

 

[WillieMac]

I would be interested to know where this information in quotations originated? Did anyone actually hear the Sheriff say it in any statement or is that what has been reported by the media?

There was some discussion on this back in Thread #2. I had posted a rather long-winded reply on Page #8 (Post #153 - CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #2 ) with some ideas that others helped to build on and correct in subsequent replies. I believe (hope?) I had cited a couple of different statement sources and wondered if there was some miscommunication involved. Comparing a couple of different sources to what I thought may have been the original comment left me wondering if the comment that many think indicates the dog was attached to dad, could really have been a typo which was meant not only to say *not attached*, but was also meant to indicate that the baby/baby carrier was what was not attached to dad.

 

[Pumphouse363]

There was some discussion on this back in Thread #2. I had posted a rather long-winded reply on Page #8 (Post #153 - CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #2 ) with some ideas that others helped to build on and correct in subsequent replies. I believe (hope?) I had cited a couple of different statement sources and wondered if there was some miscommunication involved. Comparing a couple of different sources to what I thought may have been the original comment left me wondering if the comment that many think indicates the dog was attached to dad, could really have been a typo which was meant not only to say *not attached*, but was also meant to indicate that the baby/baby carrier was what was not attached to dad.

Thank you for that. I was meaning also the comment that Jon was discovered ‘sitting upright’ as well as being ‘attached’ to Oski. If the reporting is not factual I think LE should have made a statement to the general public to say so. MOO

 

[rahod1]

I’m sorry you’ve had to repeat yourself. I don’t subscribe to the SF Chronicle and, since there are no other sources stating this, I’m not sure of its authenticity. I was asking in case anyone else could verify the information other than quoting the SF chronicle. I’m of the opinion that members of the family will be following up on incorrect reporting by the media. MOO

Apparently this was perhaps the ONLY significant interview with the Sheriff's Dept and appears to be the most comprehensive article as far as I can tell. I have not seen any reports from the Sheriff's office taking issue with any of the *facts* reported in the SF Chronicle article , nor have we seen any other reports of inaccuracies in the article. Of course you're entitled to doubt the veracity of the *facts* reported by a newspaper, but given the *test of time* (none of the reported *facts* have been contested since the article was written), I find the report that JG was *seated* to be accurate, albeit subject to some degree of interpretation, since no photos have been released. Just MOO