CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #5

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Been lurking and following along for a bit, venturing into a first post. Appreciate all of the thoughtful ideas and information. Such a terribly sad situation.

MOO, it does seem like their hike was planned (at least the first part) and, MOO, HS/accidental seems like the most plausible COD/MOD.

Like others, it's really hard to wrap my head around how they decided to hike in that heat with their dog and baby at all. I have small kids, one close in age to their baby. We play often outside, but on hot days (90s+) we keep our time outside with the baby short and move inside to the AC. It's really hard to imagine thinking of taking a baby out for any extended time in that kind of heat. Maybe like others have said about underestimating the heat/risk and overestimating their ability, there's also inexperience being first time parents and they got tragically unlucky with their judgment call. Just speculating. Those baby backpacks are also warm (for both parent and baby) and heavy.

Regarding the idea that they might have survived had they stayed at the river overnight and hiked out at dawn and how hiking back up SL when they did wasn't logical: staying at the river does seem like the safest thing in retrospect, moo. Seems their thinking could certainly been altered by impending HS and even alarm if a sense of vulnerability with heat/return hike was setting in. However, I also can totally imagine their concern, panic even, about the baby. An overnight would be one thing with the adults or adults/dog, but I can totally see if they didn't have a lot of water and didn't feel safe drinking the river water due to algae (or even if they did) and weren't prepared with warm clothes, diapers, or food for an overnight them feeling the urge to just get Out and back to their truck. I could especially see this if they were perceiving distress in the baby (either crying or lethargy) that would make them want to MOVE.

I read lots of ideas and questions about why they chose to go along the river toward SL (bc it's steeper and adds more mileage) versus retracing their steps up HC and have wondered, could they have been looking for other people, maybe hoping someone could help or go for help, and when they didn't find anyone took SL out so as not to burn more miles back to HC?

Finally, I read the link above about what it's like to die from HS. The convulsions/seizures/vomiting all makes me think of JG found deceased in a seated position. Would this position make sense with how HS affects the body?

You did your homework and have a much better understanding of the situation as revealed in the past posts than most first time commenters. Re- your comments. Yes, first time parents... been there, learned a lot. Not only can I not imagine those conditions with a baby, I don't hike myself in those conditions. I suggested staying down at the river overnight, if necessary. Sometimes it stays 100F there well after it gets dark, my point being wait until it cools off, but I don't think it would be a good idea to try to do the Savage Lundy trail in the dark. In those conditions, wait until first light. Can't say if they were looking for other people, but I think the place to find other people would be the Hite Cove OHV trail. That's by far the most heavily traveled. Finally, the "seated position" of JC vs heat stroke. I don't know exactly what "seated position" means, but certainly it doesn't mean face down. My thought is it just means they looked at the position of his body (surely feet out in front) and thought "he was seated when he died." Maybe he was propped up with his back against something, or his posterior was on a rock with his feet out in front. We don't know, and they'll probably never release that kind of detail. MOO

 

[Yvettea]

I'm beginning to think we need to distinguish between what WE know from looking things up and are using as fact and what the COUPLE knew. We have all manner of resources to acquire knowledge about that area. They don't seem to have, and they had no way to acquire more because there was no cell service. There may even have been no GPS.
If they didn't have any information except the AllTrails version of the HC trail, they had exactly ZERO information the moment they got down to the river. IMO wherever they went past that was based on surmise and incorrect assumptions. IMO they were winging it.

I don’t have all AllTrails app and can’t find anything using the internet site.

 

[rahod1]

It’s probably already been said but the south fork hike had little elevation gain. That was just a two mile hike. The hike up SLT was less steep than HCT so may have seemed less strenuous.

Yes, but the river segment was still taken under HOT conditions and shade, albeit present in some locations, probably wasn't much help most of the time because they needed to keep moving. This segment consumed TIME (1 hr?) and another 2 miles added to the eventual climb back up (vs down and back HC). The eventual climb back up SL would be 3 miles to the truck....they only made half way. MOO

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

I thought the trip was a two month once in a lifetime adventure. Not something they did every year. How many times did they do BM?

From social media and sets posted online, it was several. Jon dj'd there.

 

[Yvettea]

Yes, but the river segment was still taken under HOT conditions and shade, albeit present in some locations, probably wasn't much help most of the time because they needed to keep moving. This segment consumed TIME (1 hr?) and another 2 miles added to the eventual climb back up SL (another 3 miles to truck) is a significant in the heat.

Two miles with no climb may have been seen as time to cool off (no extra exertion from climbing) before starting the climb back out. I’m just stating my opinion only.

 

[rahod1]

Two miles with no climb may have been seen as time to cool off (no extra exertion from climbing) before starting the climb back out. I’m just stating my opinion only.

You don't have to be climbing to experience exertion. It was HOT and JG was carrying the baby and supplies. Prolonging exposure to ambient HEAT was critical for infant and dog. MOO

 

[mickey2942]

I had some kids at school in Las Vegas a few years ago, they got heat stroke, just hanging out at recess! It was August.

What was interesting to me, is that these kids were new, from California. Kids from Vegas, they would go outsield for recess, but just sort of hang out. Not running, or going crazy. Apparently, these new kids, were running around!

We learned that day, to make sure to tell new kids not to run at recess. Because it was too hot! You would have thought they would "know" that.

Is adaptation to heat, hot weather an actual "learned" behavior? And these folks, had never "learned" this? Maybe at the Gobi desert, people drove these folks around in coaches, gave them water...that isn't actually learning how to adapt to hot weather.

 

[RedHaus]

Elon Musk only turned 50 in June this year, so I think it was for someone else as the music link was posted 4 years ago. Also it was spelled "Ellon".

Thank you for that information, @Curious_in_NC.

 

[SophieRose]

I had some kids at school in Las Vegas a few years ago, they got heat stroke, just hanging out at recess! It was August.

What was interesting to me, is that these kids were new, from California. Kids from Vegas, they would go outsield for recess, but just sort of hang out. Not running, or going crazy. Apparently, these new kids, were running around!

We learned that day, to make sure to tell new kids not to run at recess. Because it was too hot! You would have thought they would "know" that.

Is adaptation to heat, hot weather an actual "learned" behavior? And these folks, had never "learned" this? Maybe at the Gobi desert, people drove these folks around in coaches, gave them water...that isn't actually learning how to adapt to hot weather.

I was born and raised in the Bay Area. When I was in middle school we had a new student at our school from San Francisco, she didn't live far from me and soon we were walking to school together. One hot day she told me that in The City they got hot days off because they weren't used to the heat. Boy did she complain on those days. Never knew if what she said was true.

 

[rahod1]

If they didn't have any information except the AllTrails version of the HC trail, they had exactly ZERO information the moment they got down to the river. IMO wherever they went past that was based on surmise and incorrect assumptions. IMO they were winging it.

Perhaps, but I don't think they would have ventured down a trail that wouldn't have given them a path back to the truck. After all, they went 2 miles down the river. Would they do that not knowing if there was a trail leading back to the truck? Not knowing where the river trail went (winging it) would risk them having to double back all the way to HC at some point. I just don't see that. What I suspect is that they may not have known how far it was to SL (2 miles) and what SL would be like (brutal). MOO

 

[Yvettea]

Perhaps, but I don't think they would have ventured down a trail that wouldn't have given them a path back to the truck. After all, they went 2 miles down the river. Would they do that not knowing if there was a trail leading back to the truck? Not knowing where the river trail went (winging it) would risk them having to double back all the way to HC at some point. I just don't see that. What I suspect is that they may not have known how far it was to SL (2 miles) and what SL would be like (brutal). MOO

Does setting out on a trail to somewhere (you don’t know how far) and hiking out another trail to the same spot seems less risky to you? How do you figure that SL was so brutal? It was longer, yes, but less steep.

 

[rahod1]

Does setting out on a trail to somewhere (you don’t know how far) and hiking out another trail to the same spot seems less risky to you? How do you figure that SL was so brutal? It was longer, yes, but less steep.

With all due respect>>Did I say this? It was a higher risk than turning around at the HC river junction. Ok on SL>> MOO>>It was brutal. Steep enough ...longer than HC and most importantly>> NO SHADE in higher temps at the time they hiked it.

 

[Yvettea]

With all due respect>>Did I say this? It was a higher risk than turning around at the HC river junction. Ok on SL>> MOO>>It was brutal. Steep enough ...longer than HC and most importantly>> NO SHADE in higher temps at the time they hiked it.

Your observation about more time in increasing temperature was the most astute. You’re right that’s what they risked by going further.

If they saw this as some kind of loop they needed a halfway point where they could turn back if needed. Facing more time in the sun is likely what caused the tragedy.

Still we haven’t heard from the sheriff what else may be involved. Until then it’s mostly useless speculation or at best endless exploration of the possibilities.

Sorry if I misrepresented your point.

 

[RickshawFan]

You don't have to be climbing to experience exertion. It was HOT and JG was carrying the baby and supplies. Prolonging exposure to ambient HEAT was critical for infant and dog. MOO

The heat and sunshine would also be reflecting off the sides of the canyon and the water.

 

[RickshawFan]

Perhaps, but I don't think they would have ventured down a trail that wouldn't have given them a path back to the truck. After all, they went 2 miles down the river. Would they do that not knowing if there was a trail leading back to the truck? Not knowing where the river trail went (winging it) would risk them having to double back all the way to HC at some point. I just don't see that. What I suspect is that they may not have known how far it was to SL (2 miles) and what SL would be like (brutal). MOO

IMO they had seen that there was a trail coming up from the valley because the trailhead was right near the trailhead for the HC trail (the same parking lot?). So they may have extrapolated from that piece of info. I just don't think they had any sources of information other than their guesses once they got to the bottom of the HC trail.
I agree that they might not have known how far it was to the S-L trail at the river junction. I don't think they knew anything, really. Their phone wouldn't have been working (either because of the heat or lack of service), the GPS might not have been working (because the canyon walls prevented GPS from latching onto sufficient satellites. They'd have needed a paper map and compass to guide them, since their electronics were not available. I have a feeling—but I don't know for a fact—that they expected their electronics to show them the way.
I just think they had no information, but proceeded by guessing. I can think of no reason why they would have set out planning to do the loop.

 

[SophieRose]

The heat and sunshine would also be reflecting off the sides of the canyon and the water.

Exactly. Here's from someone who drove the Hite Cove OHV during Memorial Day 2007 and camped near the river.

Hite Cove, CA, Memorial Day trail ride

Also, I do not think that the summer is a good time for visiting. Mountains act there like a heat lense. On the Memorial Day, in the middle of the day, I experienced more heat than in any South-West deserts I've ever been.

May and September are the best months there.

 

[RedHaus]

Exactly. Here's from someone who drove the Hite Cove OHV during Memorial Day 2007.
Hite Cove, CA, Memorial Day trail ride
Also, I do not think that the summer is a good time for visiting. Mountains act there like a heat lense. On the Memorial Day, in the middle of the day, I experienced more heat than in any South-West deserts I've ever been. May and September are the best months there.

Well, after reading that account about a group of ATV'ers navigating the Hite Cove OHV Trail over 14 years ago, it is even clearer to me now that the Hite Cove OHV Trail is widely used by trucks, dirt bikes and ATVs (and maybe hikers?) Not my first choice for a nature outing with dependents in tow on a brutally hot day.

And that brings me back to a suspicion I've had from the early days of this case. How far did the JG/EC family actually get down either of those trails? I have long believed, given the extreme heat early on and their two very vulnerable dependents who would succumb quickly, that they may not have gotten far down either trail.

I realize many here hang their hats on initial LE reports the family likely were nearing the end of their "loop". But I still wonder if further investigation by LE, verifying paw prints and shoe prints, diaper use, etc., may have refined the understanding of when the family started, where they went, and how far they got down either trail, etc.

And I still wonder if the family went down Hite Cove OHV Trail at all, because JG had hiked there before and would have known it was rough and rutty. Instead, perhaps their intent had been to go down the SL trail that day, to a mine or the river and return up it. IIRC there are 1-2 mines down there that we've identified in earlier threads.

I also still wonder if something unexpectedly occurred or something was done to them to impair judgement or impaired survival in their heat-exacerbated predicament.

Time and toxicology results will tell of course... as we've acknowledged, there is not much left to do but speculate about many different facets. In the end its just so sad.

 

[rahod1]

Speculation not withstanding, what lingers in my mind is this>>
There must have been a epiphany at some point in this hike that told them>> * Huston we have a problem*. At what point did they realize this? We'll never know, but in MOO>>>it was about 1 hr into the hike. They must have considered aborting their plan or changing it in some way.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Well, after reading that account about a group of ATV'ers navigating the Hite Cove OHV Trail over 14 years ago, it is even clearer to me now that the Hite Cove OHV Trail is widely used by trucks, dirt bikes and ATVs (and maybe hikers?) Not my first choice for a nature outing with dependents in tow on a brutally hot day.

And that brings me back to a suspicion I've had from the early days of this case. How far did the JG/EC family actually get down either of those trails? I have long believed, given the extreme heat early on and their two very vulnerable dependents who would succumb quickly, that they may not have gotten far down either trail.

I realize many here hang their hats on initial LE reports the family likely were nearing the end of their "loop". But I still wonder if further investigation by LE, verifying paw prints and shoe prints, diaper use, etc., may have refined the understanding of when the family started, where they went, and how far they got down either trail, etc.

And I still wonder if the family went down Hite Cove OHV Trail at all, because JG had hiked there before and would have known it was rough and rutty. Instead, perhaps their intent had been to go down the SL trail that day, to a mine or the river and return up it. IIRC there are 1-2 mines down there that we've identified in earlier threads.

I also still wonder if something unexpectedly occurred or something was done to them to impair judgement or impaired survival in their heat-exacerbated predicament.

Time and toxicology results will tell of course... as we've acknowledged, there is not much left to do but speculate about many different facets. In the end its just so sad.

Remember, they close that to vehicles in summer because of the threat of fire. It's quite common to hike on fire roads, but in this case, except in wildflower season I don't see any attraction, it's all burned. Yeah, I would love to have more information and to ask if they still believe they did the loop, etc. Our sleuthing is wholly dependent on the accuracy of the little scraps of info they have tossed to us. Probably our best bet is what @MrsEmmaPeel suggested- that Mr Gafni of the Chronicle does one of his in-depth articles. The one he wrote about the guy who got lost on Boundary Peak was outstanding, explained the whole thing.

 

[katydid23]

The heat and sunshine would also be reflecting off the sides of the canyon and the water.

I've done a lot of hiking/camping in the Lassen National Park area in Northern Cali. It can get pretty hot there---but when you end up on switchbacks, with the red lava rock, and/or the granite walls along the trail, the heat from the sun is scalding. And there is no escaping it while you are 'trapped' on the switchbacks because there is rock wall on one side and steep cliff drop off on the other.

I get the feeling that some of their hike was in a similar environment.