CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #6

[sfinkz]

Thanks for pointing that out and providing transcript, couldn’t believe what I thought my ears were hearing. We do know that fateful Sunday was a solid week into a heatwave which did not relent until the day after the bodies were recovered. That data sounds like from the El Portal station. May well have been hotter in the exposed south-facing Gulch. (But I don’t understand the listed river elevations at 1930’ at base of HCOHV and 1800’ upstream at base of S-L).

The transcript of the sheriff's remarks says: "The temperatures along that section of trail ranged between 107-109 degrees from 12:50pm -2:50pm cooling slightly from 4:50pm to 8:50pm from 105-89 degrees." So it dropped to 89F at 8:50 pm, sunset was at ~8 pm. It wasn't 85F at 5 pm, it was well over 100F.

 

[everybodhi]

We all know that.
But were there any other more footprints found after day 1?

There were probably alot of LE and SAR prints after day 1 but I don't think they allowed hikers in during the investigation. The trails closed due to "hazards" soon after they completed the investigation, coinciding with the normal fire season closure of the entire forest.

 

[RickshawFan]

I respect the range of emotions and reactions that people are experiencing. There's no "right" way to react to something like this, and I understand why some of you feel angry. What follows is not an indirect criticism of anyone who has contributed to this discussion. I just want to share my perspective.

I've spent a lot of time exercising outdoors in extreme conditions. Sometimes I was prepared; sometimes I was not. I was never seriously injured, but there were probably dozens of situations where I was just a mistake or two away (or a few degrees of temperature change away) from finding myself in grave danger. I suspect that's true of many of us who have spent a lot of time exercising outdoors in remote areas. All it would take is one thing to go wrong to turn a tough hike/run into a national news story where people on the internet were questioning my intelligence, character, and sanity.

I know that many of you don't spend a lot of time exercising in the wilderness, but you probably do other risky things without even realizing it. I suspect that many of us--perhaps all of us--do things that we treat as routine but that actually carry a not insubstantial risk of serious injury or death. We all have our blind spots.

Does this mean that we shouldn't question the decisions that Jonathan and Ellen made on that fateful Sunday? Of course not. But I do think we should keep our collective judgment in check. Something like this could happen to any of us.

I disagree it could "happen to any of us." The decisions here, to my mind, are unfathomable. There weren't just one or two, but a whole array, including how they were dressed. IMO it would be rare to make so many errors all at once that normal common sense might have prevented.
Even then, these were errors in the planning phase, from the safety of home, and not off decisions when you're already out there (which is a whole different matter).
Sure, I've probably made one or two bad decisions for every hike. I hitchhiked regularly along the AT (nowhere else in my non-AT life). But I wasn't at the same time stinting on water or food or ignoring conditions like a pending blizzard.
It seems as though this hike of JG and EC had a large set of questionable decisions before they left home, where they had a chance to assess and anticipate what was needed (i.e. it was too hot to hike), not just on the trail.
That's what I find troubling. And I really think posters here by and large would be deterred by the heat alone, not to mention water for the dog or paying attention to baby needs. So, no I don't think something like this "could happen to any of us."

But this kind of thing is why all along I've kept emphasizing the importance of not being self-taught when it comes to hiking. My continuing mantra: learn from old-timers. They will pass on their experience and may save your life.

 

[rahod1]

I know that many of you don't spend a lot of time exercising in the wilderness, but you probably do other risky things without even realizing it. I suspect that many of us--perhaps all of us--do things that we treat as routine but that actually carry a not insubstantial risk of serious injury or death. We all have our blind spots.

Does this mean that we shouldn't question the decisions that Jonathan and Ellen made on that fateful Sunday? Of course not. But I do think we should keep our collective judgment in check. Something like this could happen to any of us.

Well said....I've taken risks that could have cost me my life and in one instance, my family when we had an accident on the road.
Having said this...this case begs more scrutiny since there was plenty of time to CONTINUE to reassess the situation as it unfolded. They could have aborted the hike at any time...yet they persisted in a state of being unprepared in a situation of increasing adversity. Was there consideration of putting the infant and dog in jeopardy? It appears that very early in this hike they encountered a challenging situation. The hike down HC Road was steep. There's is no *free lunch*...at some point you have to reclaim elevation back to the car. MOO>>> This is a fundamental fact that a novice would instinctively know. Yes..we all screw up...but this case is really perplexing. Keep in mind, the sheriff stated that in his 20 years in the area, he's never seen a case of HS. Ask yourself why? I only hope the family has reached closure.

 

[happyday]

The problem is 3 liters of water in those conditions wouldn't have been enough even for an hour's walk.
I'm almost crying at the errors here... No water, no hats, no sleeves, no dog bowl...

I totally agree there were errors, but wouldn’t sleeves make you hotter? I always hike in tank tops and shorts and sometimes a hat, but often not. I hike in Texas hill country, New Mexico and Colorado mostly, so definitely in heat. I can’t imagine hiking in long sleeves!

I do not understand no dog bowl though and they only had a bladder. How was the dog to drink any water?

 

[sfinkz]

I totally agree there were errors, but wouldn’t sleeves make you hotter? I always hike in tank tops and shorts and sometimes a hat, but often not. I hike in Texas hill country, New Mexico and Colorado mostly, so definitely in heat. I can’t imagine hiking in long sleeves!

I do not understand no dog bowl though and they only had a bladder. How was the dog to drink any water?

The single bladder with hose encased in baby backpack for the entire hiking party is puzzling.

My current crop of dogs find most of their own water and won’t drink out of bowls for some reason on trail. They love to drink from my cupped hands when needed.

Exposing naked skin to extreme temperature defeats the cooling mechanism of sweat as it evaporates quickly. (This also factored into the JKreycik case, clad only in racing shorts). Observe the natives of tropical and desert climes. No hat in that furnace? That’s a lot of misplaced faith in sunscreen.

 

[rahod1]

I disagree it could "happen to any of us." The decisions here, to my mind, are unfathomable. There weren't just one or two, but a whole array, including how they were dressed. IMO it would be rare to make so many errors all at once that normal common sense might have prevented.

It seems as though this hike of JG and EC had a large set of questionable decisions before they left home, where they had a chance to assess and anticipate what was needed (i.e. it was too hot to hike), not just on the trail.
That's what I find troubling. And I really think posters here by and large would be deterred by the heat alone, not to mention water for the dog or paying attention to baby needs. So, no I don't think something like this "could happen to any of us."

BBM

Concur 100%. This is not something that could happen to anyone. They had numerous opportunities to avoid disaster. Yes hindsight is 20/20 but blinders can be an obstacle. MOO.
I know family will find closure now....that's all that matters. So sad. RIP

 

[rahod1]

I was thinking about this too. A one year old can use a straw and a bottle with formula could be refilled, but it certainly seems cumbersome and not sufficient for staying hydrated (with an accessible, steady flow of liquids). But another concern - in my experience (as a parent) kids aren't big water drinkers. It would be hard to imagine, even having enough water, how you would get a baby to hydrate enough. Maybe juice. But, sadly it seems even with enough water (and consumption of enough water) it wouldn't have been enough to save them.

Thirst is an instinct. An infant would take in water if thirsty. Our ancestors didn't have juice. MOO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

(But I don’t understand the listed river elevations at 1930’ at base of HCOHV and 1800’ upstream at base of S-L).

I noticed that as well.

One possibility is that the river trail at the junction of the HC OHV Access road is a few hundred feet above the river, while the same trail at the junction with Savage-Lundy is right down at the river.

Another possibility is that there is a typo or misstatement somewhere.

The river itself is definitely at higher elevation near the Savage-Lundy Trail than it is near the OHV Access road.

I totally agree there were errors, but wouldn’t sleeves make you hotter? I always hike in tank tops and shorts and sometimes a hat, but often not. I hike in Texas hill country, New Mexico and Colorado mostly, so definitely in heat. I can’t imagine hiking in long sleeves!

I couldn't handle direct sun on my arms. When it's hot and I am outdoors in the sun, I always wear a long-sleeved button-up shirt, open, over a tank top or t-shirt. It's lightweight and light colored, and loose/open. So basically like shade for my arms. If it gets too hot, I get that outer shirt wet -- take it off, soak in water, wring out a bit, put back on -- and then I am cool and comfortable for at least an hour while the shirt dries.

 

[mickey2942]

I still think that so much of what we say is "commonsense" is actually learned behavior. If you have not grown up in a family that was active in hiking, going to National Parks, you don't "know" how to cope in an environment where you can't just buy a hat and a drink at the next kiosk, like you can at Disneyland.

I think that is part of the problem here.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Question:
Infant had a small bottle with some formula still in bottle. Bladder of water was in back back and is accessed by sucking a tube. How did they plan on giving baby water? Supposedly, there was just the one baby bottle with some formula. Seems like any attempt to provide water for infant would be cumbersome. I won't even speculate about a dog without a bowl. MOO

I do think it odd that they only had one water bladder, but apparently they did. How it would work is not a problem, you just need to move the hose to a position where it gravity feeds, then squeeze the bite valve with your fingers to release water. We keep a bowl for our dog in the car, but when hiking she drinks from a bottle- we just put a finger over the end, water dribbles off our finger and she catches it. It's quick and easy.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Thanks for pointing that out and providing transcript, couldn’t believe what I thought my ears were hearing. We do know that fateful Sunday was a solid week into a heatwave which did not relent until the day after the bodies were recovered. That data sounds like from the El Portal station. May well have been hotter in the exposed south-facing Gulch. (But I don’t understand the listed river elevations at 1930’ at base of HCOHV and 1800’ upstream at base of S-L).

The junction where they turn off the Hites Cove OHV rd onto the trail that goes east to the Savage Lundy Trail is ~300' above the river. The river is ~150' higher upstream at the SLT than it is directly below that turn off the OHV rd. That's what causes the discrepancy. Being a mapaholic has it's advantages.

 

[rahod1]

I do think it odd that they only had one water bladder, but apparently they did. How it would work is not a problem, you just need to move the hose to a position where it gravity feeds, then squeeze the bite valve with your fingers to release water. We keep a bowl for our dog in the car, but when hiking she drinks from a bottle- we just put a finger over the end, water dribbles off our finger and she catches it. It's quick and easy.

BBM
Thanks. Good info. Have you had experience giving water to infant with bladder? As far as dog...I don't think they had a water bottle to accommodate the dog. MOO

 

[armchairagatha]

They were still relative newcomers to the area. Hiking in Yosemite valley or in San Francisco would have been way different than Devil's Gulch. I think that was their biggest mistake - not knowing the huge difference. They seemed to have been dressed and prepared for SF weather hiking. RIP.

 

[KBlackRabbit]

I disagree it could "happen to any of us." The decisions here, to my mind, are unfathomable. There weren't just one or two, but a whole array, including how they were dressed. IMO it would be rare to make so many errors all at once that normal common sense might have prevented.
Even then, these were errors in the planning phase, from the safety of home, and not off decisions when you're already out there (which is a whole different matter).
Sure, I've probably made one or two bad decisions for every hike. I hitchhiked regularly along the AT (nowhere else in my non-AT life). But I wasn't at the same time stinting on water or food or ignoring conditions like a pending blizzard.
It seems as though this hike of JG and EC had a large set of questionable decisions before they left home, where they had a chance to assess and anticipate what was needed (i.e. it was too hot to hike), not just on the trail.
That's what I find troubling. And I really think posters here by and large would be deterred by the heat alone, not to mention water for the dog or paying attention to baby needs. So, no I don't think something like this "could happen to any of us."

But this kind of thing is why all along I've kept emphasizing the importance of not being self-taught when it comes to hiking. My continuing mantra: learn from old-timers. They will pass on their experience and may save your life.

Agree, one mistake is one thing, but a whole conga line of mistakes? Much too hot, direct sun all day, no shade, hiking steep hills, too far from shelter, wrong clothes, not enough water, bringing a baby, bringing a dog (just knowing the sun-scorched ground would burn his poor little paws)… yikes.

At least they know COD and, sadly, it was predictable.

 

[sfinkz]

OK, one water bladder. Was it confirmed one backpack (the baby carrier with reservoir combo)? With the scaled-down water and gear 50 lbs (minimum) was being hauled on this journey. All by one person in an ill-fighting pack?

 

[WillieMac]

I respect the range of emotions and reactions that people are experiencing. There's no "right" way to react to something like this, and I understand why some of you feel angry. What follows is not an indirect criticism of anyone who has contributed to this discussion. I just want to share my perspective.

I've spent a lot of time exercising outdoors in extreme conditions. Sometimes I was prepared; sometimes I was not. I was never seriously injured, but there were probably dozens of situations where I was just a mistake or two away (or a few degrees of temperature change away) from finding myself in grave danger. I suspect that's true of many of us who have spent a lot of time exercising outdoors in remote areas. All it would take is one thing to go wrong to turn a tough hike/run into a national news story where people on the internet were questioning my intelligence, character, and sanity.

I know that many of you don't spend a lot of time exercising in the wilderness, but you probably do other risky things without even realizing it. I suspect that many of us--perhaps all of us--do things that we treat as routine but that actually carry a not insubstantial risk of serious injury or death. We all have our blind spots.

Does this mean that we shouldn't question the decisions that Jonathan and Ellen made on that fateful Sunday? Of course not. But I do think we should keep our collective judgment in check. Something like this could happen to any of us.

I wish there was a way for a person to know how many times they have cheated death in one manner or another but may not have even realized it. ...you know, sort of like checking your credit score from time to time - only you run some sort of 'near death experience' report (aka: how lucky I really am report). I am well aware of some instances in my life that I am lucky to have emerged from with my life, but I bet there are other instances where a tiny change of events or decisions on either my part or another's may have been a matter of life or death- but where I never even realized it.

While I am not surprised by the info released today, I am also disappointed, upset, and extremely sad for this family to have had to experience. The thoughts swirling in my head are so very somber yet filled with many questions (likely the same ones that I would guess others have already stated here and continue to hold) - but I will continue to try to find my peace with those questions. (As I have with so many other cases before.) There are times when I just need to step away from these discussions - not to ignore them or pretend they don't exist or have happened, but to ponder them in seclusion and to find the bits from them that would be most useful to try to retain and carry with me in life going forward from here - take a deep breath or 10, and lose myself for a bit in my own kids, dog, cats, family, and just surroundings in general. ...and appreciate all that is good in life. It shouldn't take an event like this to take me to that place, but sometimes it does. For that, and for that reason only, I will appreciate this moment. And I will appreciate that this couple who ended up in the position they were in for whatever reason, were able to complete as much of the hike that they did in the environment and conditions that they were in. I doubt that many others could have gotten as far as they did. In the end, I believe these two were warriors. Strong. Loving. Dedicated to each other & their family. Determined to get thru it together without leaving any one behind.. And just very determined to survive. ...until they simply couldn't. Many may question how they could made the decisions that found them on this trail in this heat, but I think it's also important to realize that many (most?) would likely have succumbed much much earlier on that hike on that day in those conditions than they did. They were a mile & a half from being unappreciated heroes that none of us would have ever have heard of.

 

[Karuna]

Thirst is an instinct. An infant would take in water if thirsty. Our ancestors didn't have juice. MOO

This makes sense to me. I will say I haven't been with my kids in such intense heat or thirst to know how strong that instinct is. What I could imagine is the fussiness (or lethargy) of their baby in these circumstances making her fight whatever water they could offer. Possibly not, just thinking of my hangry kids resisting eating when they need it most. Counter-instinctual for sure.

BBM
Thanks. Good info. Have you had experience giving water to infant with bladder? As far as dog...I don't think they had a water bottle to accommodate the dog. MOO

I can't imagine a baby being able to coordinate the bite and suck of a bladder and hose.

One additional thought about the baby and hydration - if EC was breastfeeding her, they may have counted on that as a source of hydration. Not ideal with body to body in that heat and certainly not as accessible as would have been needed, nevermind EC's own dehydration impacting any milk supply, but possibly another source they were counting on.

 

[Yvettea]

OK, one water bladder. Was it confirmed one backpack (the baby carrier with reservoir combo)? With the scaled-down water and gear 50 lbs (minimum) was being hauled on this journey. All by one person in an ill-fighting pack?

You are suggesting, I think, that JG carried all the weight (water and baby) and that the backpack didn’t fit him properly? Also that water carried was scaled back so the bladder would fit inside the same backpack?

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

BBM
Thanks. Good info. Have you had experience giving water to infant with bladder? As far as dog...I don't think they had a water bottle to accommodate the dog. MOO

I don't think I'd give water to an infant from a bladder (they might choke), but they had bottle(s) with formula, just remove the top and dribble water into it from the bite valve. The dog could not have made it that far without water, so it was drinking somehow. Perhaps by my method, or dribbling water from the bite valve into cupped hands. It became a moot issue when they ran out of water.