GUILTY CA - Lawrence 'Larry' King, 15, fatally shot at Oxnard school, 12 Feb 2008

[Nova]

...I'm surprised it was 2nd degree murder instead of manslaughter as an alternative.

As I read that article, the jury may consider all three: 1st degree, 2nd degree and manslaughter. But per the link they have to find McInernay not guilty of 1st and 2nd degree murder before they weigh the manslaughter charge.

I'm not sure what "before" means. As I said above, I've been a juror in CA where we were given options of 2nd degree, voluntary and involuntary manslaughter (and, of course, acquittal). Deliberations addressed all possible verdicts simultaneously and the straw poll votes changed from day to day. (We deliberated for a full week.)

It's true a jury can't find a defendant guilty of both murder and manslaughter for the same killing, so, yes, a finding of guilty to manslaughter requires a not guilty to murder. But that doesn't necessarily mean jurors start at the top and work their way down.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Well, usually when they are deliberating they will decide what charge they will decide on and then they have to fill out the verdict forms and hand them over to the clerk.

And depending on the state you are in the different murder charges mean different things. Manslaughter in one state can mean a different thing in another.

2nd degree murder and 1st degree murder can get you a life sentence in my state. Manslaughter not so much.

 

[joe jones]

As I read that article, the jury may consider all three: 1st degree, 2nd degree and manslaughter. But per the link they have to find McInernay not guilty of 1st and 2nd degree murder before they weigh the manslaughter charge.

I'm not sure what "before" means. As I said above, I've been a juror in CA where we were given options of 2nd degree, voluntary and involuntary manslaughter (and, of course, acquittal). Deliberations addressed all possible verdicts simultaneously and the straw poll votes changed from day to day. (We deliberated for a full week.)

It's true a jury can't find a defendant guilty of both murder and manslaughter for the same killing, so, yes, a finding of guilty to manslaughter requires a not guilty to murder. But that doesn't necessarily mean jurors start at the top and work their way down.

what "before" means is that the jurors start with the top charge first degree murder and deliberate on that, if they do not all agree that it is first degree murder they move onto second degree murder and if they don't agree on this then they move to manslaughter,

if they agree on first degree they stop there and render there verdict which is what I hope to see, but the defence did such a good job they may move onto second degree or manslaughter

they may compromise on second degree, many juries compromise if there is no accord on the top charge, so some may wish for manslaughter some for first degree and some for second, a second degree verdict may seem like a good compromise for a jury

 

[joe jones]

seems closings are today as yesterday must have been taken up with deciding which charges would be given to the jury, and agreeing on jury instructions

 

[joe jones]

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_...ion_Tears_Apart_McInerneys_Gay_Panic_Defense/

prosecution closing, great to see a defence of Larry, and a passionate closing by the state,

 

[joe jones]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0826-gay-slaying-20110826,0,4401172.story

more on closings

 

[joe jones]

http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/2011...led?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

jury have the case, now we wait, for Larry and for all other people who are murdered because somebody did not like who or what they were I hope it is 1st degree murder

 

[LCoastMom]

I came across this article tonite:

Women in Crime Ink

The Gay Panic Defense... Here We Go Again - by Holly Hughes

http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/2011/08/gay-panic-defense-here-we-go-again.html?showComment=1314591398765#c6450105316480026127

 

[gxm]

I don't support trying juveniles as adults, especially when the youth is only 14. So I begin the case with my support leaning toward the defendant. That said, I think the defense made a compelling case. Sexual harassment is a serious issue and a form of bullying. Many victims, often girls and LGTB youth, end up taking their own lives. It's a rare case that they attack their harasser but it's not unheard of. If I were on the jury, I would not be able to find Brandon guilty of first degree murder, but then I'm biased against trying children as adults so I would never be chosen for a trial like this. IMO it will be a complete tragedy if Brandon is convicted of first degree murder because two kid's lives will have been wiped out.

 

[joe jones]

I don't support trying juveniles as adults, especially when the youth is only 14. So I begin the case with my support leaning toward the defendant. That said, I think the defense made a compelling case. Sexual harassment is a serious issue and a form of bullying. Many victims, often girls and LGTB youth, end up taking their own lives. It's a rare case that they attack their harasser but it's not unheard of. If I were on the jury, I would not be able to find Brandon guilty of first degree murder, but then I'm biased against trying children as adults so I would never be chosen for a trial like this. IMO it will be a complete tragedy if Brandon is convicted of first degree murder because two kid's lives will have been wiped out.

I think he should have been tried as a juvenile, but I also think he is guilty of first degree murder, and I hope he is convicted of first degree murder,

the defence did a very good job of painting Larry as sexaully harrasing the defendant, but all the testimony ever amounted to was a few comments Larry made to the defendant, not one witness ever testified he systematically bullied the defendant, he made a few comments that were innocuous and would not amount to harrassment on any level,

the defendant said he would kill Larry and he did, he planned the murder, he got a gun and he carried it out, if that is not first degree murder I don't know what is

 

[joe jones]

I came across this article tonite:

Women in Crime Ink

The Gay Panic Defense... Here We Go Again - by Holly Hughes

http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com...howComment=1314591398765#c6450105316480026127

very interesting read,

 

[Nova]

I don't support trying juveniles as adults, especially when the youth is only 14. So I begin the case with my support leaning toward the defendant. That said, I think the defense made a compelling case. Sexual harassment is a serious issue and a form of bullying. Many victims, often girls and LGTB youth, end up taking their own lives. It's a rare case that they attack their harasser but it's not unheard of. If I were on the jury, I would not be able to find Brandon guilty of first degree murder, but then I'm biased against trying children as adults so I would never be chosen for a trial like this. IMO it will be a complete tragedy if Brandon is convicted of first degree murder because two kid's lives will have been wiped out.

There was sexual harassment all right. But Larry King was the victim, not the perpetrator. (I agree with you, however, that 14-year-olds should be remanded to juvenile court.)

 

[gxm]

There was sexual harassment all right. But Larry King was the victim, not the perpetrator. (I agree with you, however, that 14-year-olds should be remanded to juvenile court.)

I don't agree. As someone who received unwanted attention (aka sexual harassment) when I was in middle school and high school I understand that it is not only embarrassing and humiliating, but it negatively impact one's self esteem. If the defense's claims are true then it seems to me that Larry was intentionally harassing Brandon. It's not a reason to kill someone, but at that age small humiliations can be overwhelming. Children's brains are not fully developed and they make very bad, irrational decisions. The defense painted the portrait of a teen who most certainly had esteem issues to begin with and any unwanted sexual advances could have pushed him over the edge. IMO, Brandon needs rehabilitation, not life in prison. And I hope the jury shows him some compassion.

 

[LCoastMom]

I don't support trying juveniles as adults, especially when the youth is only 14. So I begin the case with my support leaning toward the defendant. That said, I think the defense made a compelling case. Sexual harassment is a serious issue and a form of bullying. Many victims, often girls and LGTB youth, end up taking their own lives. It's a rare case that they attack their harasser but it's not unheard of. If I were on the jury, I would not be able to find Brandon guilty of first degree murder, but then I'm biased against trying children as adults so I would never be chosen for a trial like this. IMO it will be a complete tragedy if Brandon is convicted of first degree murder because two kid's lives will have been wiped out.

While I agree in principle, we have no say in how the State chooses to try someone I think we have to believe there were compelling reasons to try him as an adult. Brandon was 14 when he shot a classmate twice in the back of the head at near point blank range, he's now 17. Possibly the idea that trying him as a juvenile, knowing that by the time he made it to California Division of Juvenile Justice he would be held from 3 to 8 years max was insufficient for the crime.

From what I have heard I would have a very hard time believing Brandon was sexually harassed. Teased a little maybe; while I'm not defending the behavior, being shot twice in the back of the head seems a little extreme retribution.

Telling others you are going to kill someone, stealing a gun, concealing it overnight, sneaking it onto a school campus and executing someone all adds up to murder in my book. The jury should decide this case based on the evidence. I hope they find him guilty.

A 14 year old kid who can plan and carry out such a crime scares the carp out of me. I don't think I'd feel like a second life was being wiped out, Brandon decided that when he shot Larry King in cold blood.

 

[joe jones]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...murder-trial/2011/08/29/gIQAIOehmJ_story.html

jury deliberated for 2 hours then had to stop as a juror had to go to class, lets hope they can spare a little more time tomorrow to deliberate and render there verdict

 

[LCoastMom]

A (very) little bit more information here: <<snipped>>

http://www.vcstar.com/news/2011/aug/29/mcinerney-jury-adjourns-for-day-without-verdict/

One of the jurors is a college student who starts classes this afternoon, so Ventura County Superior Court Judge Charles Campbell is allowing the jury to work around her schedule. They also will deliberate for only two hours Wednesday if no verdict has been reached by then.

As long as they do the right thing (as opposed to CFCA's trial).

 

[gxm]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...murder-trial/2011/08/29/gIQAIOehmJ_story.html

jury deliberated for 2 hours then had to stop as a juror had to go to class, lets hope they can spare a little more time tomorrow to deliberate and render there verdict

Oh good grief. This is ridiculous. Why was she even seated if her classes were deemed more important than deliberation? Unbelievable!

 

[gxm]

While I agree in principle, we have no say in how the State chooses to try someone I think we have to believe there were compelling reasons to try him as an adult. Brandon was 14 when he shot a classmate twice in the back of the head at near point blank range, he's now 17. Possibly the idea that trying him as a juvenile, knowing that by the time he made it to California Division of Juvenile Justice he would be held from 3 to 8 years max was insufficient for the crime.

From what I have heard I would have a very hard time believing Brandon was sexually harassed. Teased a little maybe; while I'm not defending the behavior, being shot twice in the back of the head seems a little extreme retribution.

Telling others you are going to kill someone, stealing a gun, concealing it overnight, sneaking it onto a school campus and executing someone all adds up to murder in my book. The jury should decide this case based on the evidence. I hope they find him guilty.

A 14 year old kid who can plan and carry out such a crime scares the carp out of me. I don't think I'd feel like a second life was being wiped out, Brandon decided that when he shot Larry King in cold blood.

BBM.

Child and teen killers are deeply disturbing and frightening. It's natural to be horrified when a child kills, especially when another child is the victim. But, IMO, Brandon didn't "decide" to kill Larry, at least not in the same way an adult makes a decision. Perhaps the state has psych evidence that Brandon is a budding serial killer, but to the best of my knowledge that is not the case. I'd like to think he is redeemable because, for me, these cases where children are tried and sentenced as adults never feels like justice. Instead, it feels like an open wound that will never heal.

 

[Nova]

I don't agree. As someone who received unwanted attention (aka sexual harassment) when I was in middle school and high school I understand that it is not only embarrassing and humiliating, but it negatively impact one's self esteem. If the defense's claims are true then it seems to me that Larry was intentionally harassing Brandon. It's not a reason to kill someone, but at that age small humiliations can be overwhelming. Children's brains are not fully developed and they make very bad, irrational decisions. The defense painted the portrait of a teen who most certainly had esteem issues to begin with and any unwanted sexual advances could have pushed him over the edge. IMO, Brandon needs rehabilitation, not life in prison. And I hope the jury shows him some compassion.

Based on published reports, the defense was not able to show that Larry King did anything other than make a few sarcastic remarks, such as calling McInernay "baby". That was not sexual harassment, it was Larry's way of fending off one of the many bullies who were tormenting him.

 

[Nova]

BBM.

Child and teen killers are deeply disturbing and frightening. It's natural to be horrified when a child kills, especially when another child is the victim. But, IMO, Brandon didn't "decide" to kill Larry, at least not in the same way an adult makes a decision. Perhaps the state has psych evidence that Brandon is a budding serial killer, but to the best of my knowledge that is not the case. I'd like to think he is redeemable because, for me, these cases where children are tried and sentenced as adults never feels like justice. Instead, it feels like an open wound that will never heal.

If we were discussing whether to try McInernay as a juvenile or an adult, I'd be agreeing with you. Even the head of the local gay legal society called for the case to be remanded to juvenile court.

But we are where we are. A finding of manslaughter will only send a message that gay people are so inherently repulsive that "normal" people can't restrain themselves from killing gays. That's a far more dangerous result than sending McInernay to prison.

Now, once McInernay has been rightfully convicted of first degree murder, then your arguments for mercy will once again have a place. I hope someone will make them during the sentencing portion of the trial.