GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #3

[TheDuchess]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/sns-la-me-0513-leila-fowler-20130513,0,4887568.story

Is the "bully" part just the media's word or is it saying that people questioned the brother's story because he was known to be a bully?

I want to know what the brother was like before this happened. Was he a bully? Was he arrogant? Or was he very quiet, no friends, kept to himself?

Well...the article states that Leila and her brother were home alone on the "night of the murder." So....:facepalm:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Well...the article states that Leila and her brother were home alone on the "night of the murder." So....:facepalm:

Didn't even catch that. Yeah, and I feel like if the interviewees said the brother was a bully, we would also have an example of something the brother had done/said.

 

[CHICANA]

I have several friends that live in VS. There is much chatter around town. They said that IF gave at least 2 different versions of the events...He was in the bathroom, then he was outside playing...I have also noticed some chatter on the VS bulletin board, that some suspect more arrest(s) due to cover up?

Ughh...I feel so sick about this entire story. My heart truly aches for this family, and I cannot stop myself from feeling sadness and pain for the 12yo....Not to say he should not be punished, that is a given...but, why did he do it? I always look for the, why? What signs, if any did he display, of some sort of behavioral issue? Was he ever diagnosed ADD/ADHD? Was he on medication?? I know these questions may never be answered, and maybe it will just take time....

I was confused, I haven't been following this case closely but it caused me to talk to my 12 & 13 year olds (again) about locking the doors, setting the alarm, etc since they tend to let the dog out & leave the back door unlocked. You might be able to clear this up for me, I thought the bio mom said in an interview that her older son's name was JF who is older than the 12 year old?. Then I read a comment on an article by someone that seemed to be 'in the know' that a GW was arrested for the murder ? Since the GW had the same last name as the step mom, I was assuming it was the step-brother ? I found the JF's facebook but couldn't find an IF. Of course I haven't sleuthed this like others on this thread, so I could be ALL wrong.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I was confused, I haven't been following this case closely but it caused me to talk to my 12 & 13 year olds (again) about locking the doors, setting the alarm, etc since they tend to let the dog out & leave the back door unlocked. You might be able to clear this up for me, I thought the bio mom said in an interview that her older son's name was JF who is older than the 12 year old?. Then I read a comment on an article by someone that seemed to be 'in the know' that a GW was arrested for the murder ? Since the GW had the same last name as the step mom, I was assuming it was the step-brother ? I found the JF's facebook but couldn't find an IF. Of course I haven't sleuthed this like others on this thread, so I could be ALL wrong.

Yes, JF is the oldest brother. He is 17.

In the obituary, a boy with a first name starting with G is named. I'm guessing he is Crystal (the stepmom)'s son. He was not arrested for the murder. The fact that someone knows his name (so they must be a local) and is saying he was arrested...Wow. They need to stop.

IF was the one arrested. We don't think he has a FB as none of us have been able to find it.

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

Your second para: Exactly my thoughts!

One other question I have is this: the father was at the house before police got there - there was a mention that he was white as a sheet craddling Leila when police arrived. How did he get there faster than the police?

I am under the impression, and I'm not sure this has been corroborated at all, that the boy called the parents on a cell phone and they were already in the car on the way home from the game. The parents called police from what I recall. They could have been 5 minutes from the house when they called the police and then the police came shortly after.

Here's my possible scenario:

Parents leave, brother knows they will be gone for some time. Was he abusing his sister? Now was the time if he was. She fights back, maybe threatens to tell and he freaks out. I'm not even convinced he brought a knife in the room, maybe she had it to protect herself from him.

And through all this, I do believe it was possible the parents could have been blind to it.

 

[vasportsmom]

I don't understand how a parent could be blind to violent tendencies in a child, especially a preteen that likely hasn't developed the ability to consistently mask or control them. The same goes for sudden changes in behavior. The minute my 12 year old walks in the door after school I can tell you if he wore his glasses that day or kept them hid in his locker because there is a distinct difference in my normally happy child and the grumpy creature suffering a headache from eye strain. Unless IF had recently started taking a new medication or started experimenting with drugs then I don't buy that this tragedy was completely unexpected, maybe nobody expected he would go this far but there is no way that a previously loving, completely nonviolent 12 year old stabbed his baby sister 21 times without any warning IMO.

 

[prima.facie]

Sad to say, I backed off of this thread because I suspected this since day one, and so did a few others. I was thrown off by the neighbor 'witness', but... nothing else made sense.

I'll keep this family in my thoughts and prayers. So terribly sad... :cry:

and so did I. I tried hard to not focus on the brother HERE. but deep inside I knew it was him. when I could not find anything else to post because I believed it was him, I stopped posting about it.

stabbing is a very personal method of killing. I fought hard in my mind to try and accept some strange man wandering a remote location did this. should always stick to my gut.

....we never know what truly goes on behind closed doors. this boy needs help, unfortunately, not sure how one, especially so young, can be helped after killing their sister.

i hate to say it, but i hope there is some investigation into the environment those kids were raised in. what makes a KID chose to murder his sister?

 

[gitana1]

I just wrote a long post to have it timeout on me - here's it in a nutshell:

All my opinion only, ok:

The brother could have had some abuse or bullying issues with the sister and the family maybe knew but didn't think it was that serious. I do NOT think this murder was over a video game or what to watch on TV. There seems to be some confusing family issues going on and who knows what was happening before this murder, I am not and will not judge because I live in my own glass house. I think this anger was building up, he had thought about it and did what he felt was justified in his own mind had to be done - and he confessed, I believe that.

His story did not add up - they maybe took the TV to check a possible alibi that he was watching TV at the time, only to find out the TV wasn't turned on then, for example. I believe that can be checked depending on the TV.

There could have been evidence such as blood in the washing machine, wasching machine had been used while parents were gone, clothes were burned possibly, evidence that he left the house before coming back home (to get rid of evidence) blood in her room with his prints, no tracks in garage or concrete outside (and their place looks outside to be dirty/muddy), no scent picked up outside the house. I mean there are a hundred and one clues that don't make sense that the police might have.

The police did what they could to eliminate him as a suspect, knowing full well this wasn't going to end that way. Calling in dogs, diving in ponds, the PCs etc. They knew this brother was a danger to the one person he murdered so as long as he stayed put, no one else was in danger. I wonder if the parents were updated on what they were concluding or if hit them all at once. When watching the YouTube video that someone a few pages back posted the link to, it seems the father was more upset than just the tragic death of his daughter - IMO - he had some things in his mind as he stumbled with what he told the reporter.

Can anyone link to that interview or statement?

We have a DJJ Facility in our city. I'm sure there are some offenders who at 18-25 may be put into the CDC&R system. But it is my impression the bulk of the offenders are kept in DJJ until age 25.

I'm amazed by the number of people in the news comment section who say this boy should be tried as an adult. I have no idea if he can be rehabilitated, but DJJ will have 13 years to try.

What IF did is the epitome of evil, I would really like to understand his background and the lead up to the murder. But because he is a JV, I think we will not learn much.

I think 12 is far too young to be tried as an adult. It is completely possible for a child that age to do something horrific without being evil. Most kids are still redeemable at that age. Even those with conduct disorder. Dr. Hare showed that young, potentially psychopathic brains can be rehabbed.

But here's the problem: it is highly unlikely that this boy would Receive the intensive, psych help he would need to change. We just had a kid sentenced to age 25 for his murder via a single bullet to his sleeping, highly abusive neo-Nazi fathers head. He was 10 when the murder occurred. The judge refused to place him in an intensive, locked psych facility. Instead, he will be learning from other juvenile offenders and then adults and then released to the world. Scary.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't understand how a parent could be blind to violent tendencies in a child, especially a preteen that likely hasn't developed the ability to consistently mask or control them. The same goes for sudden changes in behavior. The minute my 12 year old walks in the door after school I can tell you if he wore his glasses that day or kept them hid in his locker because there is a distinct difference in my normally happy child and the grumpy creature suffering a headache from eye strain. Unless IF had recently started taking a new medication or started experimenting with drugs then I don't buy that this tragedy was completely unexpected, maybe nobody expected he would go this far but there is no way that a previously loving, completely nonviolent 12 year old stabbed his baby sister 21 times without any warning IMO.

IMO some 12 are quite capable of harming younger siblings covertly, sometimes the younger siblings are silenced by threats. It happens.

That doesn't mean to say he had been previously breaking bones... There are many forms of abuse that parents aren't always aware of.


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[Flutterflies]

Was there ever an explanation as to why Leila and her 12 year old brother did not go to the ballgame with the rest of the family? I have been puzzled by that. In my family, everyone went to the child's ballgames or an adult stayed home with a child as necessary. I am curious why the 8 year old and 12 year old were home instead of at the ballgame with the family where they could have played/hung out with other kids/friends in attendance and socialized or just watched the game.

MOO

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

I don't understand how a parent could be blind to violent tendencies in a child, especially a preteen that likely hasn't developed the ability to consistently mask or control them. The same goes for sudden changes in behavior. The minute my 12 year old walks in the door after school I can tell you if he wore his glasses that day or kept them hid in his locker because there is a distinct difference in my normally happy child and the grumpy creature suffering a headache from eye strain. Unless IF had recently started taking a new medication or started experimenting with drugs then I don't buy that this tragedy was completely unexpected, maybe nobody expected he would go this far but there is no way that a previously loving, completely nonviolent 12 year old stabbed his baby sister 21 times without any warning IMO.

I know what you're saying, but it's hard to judge I think, especially when you have the family situation like this. Who knows what the kid was acting like and if they attributed it to adolescent issues or something more. I think that even if the parents felt there was something not normal about their son, they probably never imagined he would strike out on a sibling.

My one brother has horrible anger issues - has for almost his whole life. He's not crazy or non-funtioning, but he will get so angry as to get out of a car during rush hour and fight with someone in another car over road-rage. My father tends to think he's just being a 'man.' My brother is 41 and I do not find it normal at all. The rest of the time, he acts like he doesn't care about anything to the point of being emotionally immature. He's a successful biologist and he knows the 'lab' but doesn't know 'people' or 'life.' My other brother and I find his behavior problematic and we with small children, will not leave them with him. My father continues on his merry little belief that all is good in angerland.

Maybe a lot will come out about this family: how long Crystal and Barney were together, any conflicts with the blended family, problems socially, etc. I think there is a HUGE gray area between the Cleavers and the Munsters (can't think of a better example, sorry.)

 

[mysteriew]

Can anyone link to that interview or statement?



I think 12 is far too young to be tried as an adult. It is completely possible for a child that age to do something horrific without being evil. Most kids are still redeemable at that age. Even those with conduct disorder. Dr. Hare showed that young, potentially psychopathic brains can be rehabbed.

But here's the problem: it is highly unlikely that this boy would Receive the intensive, psych help he would need to change. We just had a kid sentenced to age 25 for his murder via a single bullet to his sleeping, highly abusive neo-Nazi fathers head. He was 10 when the murder occurred. The judge refused to place him in an intensive, locked psych facility. Instead, he will be learning from other juvenile offenders and then adults and then released to the world. Scary.

BBM

To me that is the scariest part. He could have been a very sweet boy, it could have been a very unusual sudden flash of anger for him. But now he is going through the system. Once in JD he will be getting a totally different type of education. And no matter what he was really like, he will be very different when he comes out.

 

[jjenny]

BBM

To me that is the scariest part. He could have been a very sweet boy, it could have been a very unusual sudden flash of anger for him. But now he is going through the system. Once in JD he will be getting a totally different type of education. And no matter what he was really like, he will be very different when he comes out.

I am sorry. Unusual anger flash from a very sweet boy could maybe result in pulling of hair. Not what he is accused of.

 

[Knox]

Can anyone link to that interview or statement?



I think 12 is far too young to be tried as an adult. It is completely possible for a child that age to do something horrific without being evil. Most kids are still redeemable at that age. Even those with conduct disorder. Dr. Hare showed that young, potentially psychopathic brains can be rehabbed.

But here's the problem: it is highly unlikely that this boy would Receive the intensive, psych help he would need to change. We just had a kid sentenced to age 25 for his murder via a single bullet to his sleeping, highly abusive neo-Nazi fathers head. He was 10 when the murder occurred. The judge refused to place him in an intensive, locked psych facility. Instead, he will be learning from other juvenile offenders and then adults and then released to the world. Scary.

Catch 22, so what's the answer? I wonder, if the juvenile has a supportive family who hires a good attorney who pushes for placement in a facility like you mention. Is the outcome different?

OT- what lead the judge in the case you outlined, to refuse intensive treatment to the 10 year old? Also, are the state budget woes impacting the JV system in the same way as they impact CDCR?

 

[Davereid]

I agree with you in that I can recognize instantly when my kids are upset or something is wrong. I can also notice when they are hiding something. I have three kids so there are probably times when they do get away with something. This is usually on the weekends where kids from the neighborhood come over and we have 6 to 9 kids running around. My point is that is a big family. The kids are all different ages with different needs. If he is kind of quiet but for the most part obedient they may not have noticed. I know in hindsight people say they noticed bad behaviors but the truth is most people do not. It took the FBI behavioral science unit in it's infancy conduct hundreds of hours of interviews with killers to find some common behaviors between them. These are the late bed wetting, animal cruelty and setting fires. Many of them are good at hiding these. It is true most come from terrible backgrounds with abusive parents or caretakers but there is a small percent that do not. They do know that there appears to be a common link between frontal lobe damage and sociopaths. I think it is entirely plausible, if he is in fact a budding sociopath, they may not have noticed the signs. Those of us who read about and take interest in cases like this and crime probably would but a lot of parents would not.

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[jjenny]

Can anyone link to that interview or statement?



I think 12 is far too young to be tried as an adult. It is completely possible for a child that age to do something horrific without being evil. Most kids are still redeemable at that age. Even those with conduct disorder. Dr. Hare showed that young, potentially psychopathic brains can be rehabbed.

But here's the problem: it is highly unlikely that this boy would Receive the intensive, psych help he would need to change. We just had a kid sentenced to age 25 for his murder via a single bullet to his sleeping, highly abusive neo-Nazi fathers head. He was 10 when the murder occurred. The judge refused to place him in an intensive, locked psych facility. Instead, he will be learning from other juvenile offenders and then adults and then released to the world. Scary.

Since other juvenile offenders are likely there for lesser crimes, maybe we should be worried about other juvenile offenders.

 

[Davereid]

The neighbor may have saw someone but it was not a killer. Or she just was someone with "issues" who wanted her 15 minutes of fame. Unfortunately I have run across too many adults who lie and fabricate things for attention. We might see her later talking about how she noticed the brother doing something bad. Just a thought.

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[jjenny]

Who knows. Apparently police find her story not credible. In many of these types of cases, we have people claiming they saw something. Such as: they saw a missing person (when the person was already dead). Or they saw a suspect kidnapping a child (when the child was never kidnapped to begin with), etc.

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

Can anyone link to that interview or statement?



I think 12 is far too young to be tried as an adult. It is completely possible for a child that age to do something horrific without being evil. Most kids are still redeemable at that age. Even those with conduct disorder. Dr. Hare showed that young, potentially psychopathic brains can be rehabbed.

But here's the problem: it is highly unlikely that this boy would Receive the intensive, psych help he would need to change. We just had a kid sentenced to age 25 for his murder via a single bullet to his sleeping, highly abusive neo-Nazi fathers head. He was 10 when the murder occurred. The judge refused to place him in an intensive, locked psych facility. Instead, he will be learning from other juvenile offenders and then adults and then released to the world. Scary.

Here's the video: [video=youtube;NqfMDTlCwB8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqfMDTlCwB8[/video]

I watched the one part quickly again and he says, "We can't describe nothin',"

This doesn't lead me to think they knew he was guilty per se, but maybe that they knew he was being investigated and what was about to come.

 

[hollye]

Was there ever an explanation as to why Leila and her 12 year old brother did not go to the ballgame with the rest of the family? I have been puzzled by that. In my family, everyone went to the child's ballgames or an adult stayed home with a child as necessary. I am curious why the 8 year old and 12 year old were home instead of at the ballgame with the family where they could have played/hung out with other kids/friends in attendance and socialized or just watched the game.

MOO

Has it been said that the entire family, excepting LF & IF, was at the ball game? I don't recall having seen that. I recall having seen that the parents were at the ball game, but I may be mistaken.

Anyway, I am going to speculate that the ball game was for the boy who was in between IF & LF in age (the boy with the longer hair). If that is the case, then that would leave the 2 little ones, who appear to be about 5yo & 2yo, which I imagine were with the parents, as they are definitely too little to stay home, IMO, and the 2 oldest children, the 17yo boy and 15yo girl, who were likely with friends or working.

Given this scenario, I don't find it odd that the 12yo and 8yo were left home, but this is obviously just my opinion.