GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[Linda7NJ]

IMO, the general sentiment towards Barney would be much worse if he was the mother of at least seven children by at least four different men. There wouldn't be any congratulating him for being a parent to them or saying how amazing it is that he takes care of his kids, that's for sure.

I disagree. I posted about a neighbor, a woman... In this thread, And while I don't condone her method of financing for her children, I did praise her parenting and think her children are wonderful terrific kids.


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[The Cheese]

Can someone give me a date/time for the "nasty" comments of FB of CW regarding custody? Please and thank you. I have only found one cryptic comment that mentions the family not needing this right now or something to that effect which I believe was regarding PR's interview.

Have I not gone back far enough? Where IS all this nasty everyone keeps referring to?

ETA I realize the page is now disabled but I DID read that page and I honestly did not see whatever it is others apparently did. Could someone paraphrase or if it is not authorized to discuss that page in thread then shoot me a PM. I keep seeing this referenced and I do not see what the fluff is about if all that CW said is what I read. It seem to be an accepted fact that CW trashed PR on FB and I DID NOT SEE ANYTHING OF THE KIND.

It was the day of IF's arrest, a little bit earlier in the day (but not by much). This was the day after PR did the interview. The comments were along the lines of "and the Oscar goes to". That's all I remember of what it said.

I remember the timeframe of the post and follow-on comments because I looked at the times in relation to the time of IF's arrest (5:10pm).

 

[JaimeSommers]

It was the day of IF's arrest, a little bit earlier in the day (but not by much). This was the day after PR did the interview. The comments were along the lines of "and the Oscar goes to". That's all I remember of what it said.

I remember the timeframe of the post and follow-on comments because I looked at the times in relation to the time of IF's arrest (5:10pm).

BBM ... I also saw this FB post and the subsequent comments, fwiw.

 

[winterrose]

I'm not sure how the lawyer will play this out in court, also wondering if the rest of the court proceedings will be public, seems they might be. According to the neighbor IF was always watching the younger kids, not sure if he was angry about staying home with Leila that day, or if they wanted to.

I'm wondering when he found out CW is pregnant again, could that have been a factor if he was caretaker of the little ones? One friend said he was protective over Leila, so what happened that day, how was it different? Maybe it wasn't, you never know how a person acts in private and I can't get over his demeanor at the vigils. There's so many factors the lawyer can go with, interesting he has a PI investigating, also.

I was also thinking about the neighbor who said he was watering roses and never saw anyone leave the house, he couldn't see all around the house, though. IF could have went out the opposite way from what he saw. Maybe something happened when the neighbor wasn't outside, it's not been said when the family left for the game. A friend said CW worked the concession stand, so maybe they had to leave earlier than the game started.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Until we know more, I'm inclined to be sympathetic to Leila's mother who was homeless, jobless, receiving an income of $500 a month, and pleaded to be able to talk to her kids. None of us know why he was awarded custody, but the fact remains that her income was barely enough for one person to get by. He must have known that when he went for custody, unless her situation drastically changed to due accident, addiction, or some other possibility. And even then, I'm not sure what he expected to gain by pursuing support after this hypothetical change in income. If one can barely support themself, how are they able to support their children? That's why the saying - you can't get blood from a stone. If there's no money, there's no money.

If anything, it's an argument for better social welfare, but that's for another forum.

It doesn't automatically make anyone a "bad guy", but it does make me wonder what the heck the father was hoping to achieve. And makes me wonder what the home atmosphere was like, with so many support/divorce cases going on in several directions with various parents. It must have been hard for the kids.

I have a problem with her usage of the word "homeless" ...is she living in a cardboard box? On the street? because thats what homeless means. Or is she staying with friends? Huge difference to me.


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[Gardenlady]

without any evidence these particular children have endured a turbulent environment, I can't and won't claim they did.

Thousands upon thousands of children are from homes where the parents divorced less than amicably.... And those children aren't suffering mental illness as a result.


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What you said, though, was that "While it may not be our choice for a way of life, it doesn't create mental illness leading to stabbing to death a younger sibling. "

I think that's patently false, unless you can show some evidence from the literature, or are a verified expert yourself, that convoluted family situations, multiple family court situations for support both by and against the custodial parent (Barney), and not seeing mom for years doesn't create mental illness.

I mean, Not even anxiety or panic disorder? Attachment disorder? Nothing? I think it's a sweeping statement that is your opinion, but has no basis in fact.

Anecdotal stories of other children who survived turbulent childhoods are irrelevant - as they are not these particular children, in this particular situation and environment, with their particular genetic makeup. Human beings, each being unique, are going to respond uniquely to a given situation.

 

[Gardenlady]

IMO, the general sentiment towards Barney would be much worse if he was the mother of at least seven children by at least four different men. There wouldn't be any congratulating him for being a parent to them or saying how amazing it is that he takes care of his kids, that's for sure.

Because in our society, a woman with seven children with four different men is a . A guy in the same situation, however, is just being a guy, and deserves a gold medal and cake even if he just does the bare minimum for the kids.

 

[Linda7NJ]

What you said, though, was that "While it may not be our choice for a way of life, it doesn't create mental illness leading to stabbing to death a younger sibling. "

I think that's patently false, unless you can show some evidence from the literature, or are a verified expert yourself, that convoluted family situations, multiple family court situations for support both by and against the custodial parent (Barney), and not seeing mom for years doesn't create mental illness.

I mean, Not even anxiety or panic disorder? Attachment disorder? Nothing? I think it's a sweeping statement that is your opinion, but has no basis in fact.

Anecdotal stories of other children who survived turbulent childhoods are irrelevant - as they are not these particular children, in this particular situation and environment, with their particular genetic makeup. Human beings, each being unique, are going to respond uniquely to a given situation.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find any study that links custody issues and child support squabbles and causes mental illness.

Again, you keep stating as fact that these children suffered because of a turbulent environment.... Please provide a link stating that or stop bashing them


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[winterrose]

I have a problem with her usage of the word "homeless" ...is she living in a cardboard box? On the street? because thats what homeless means. Or is she staying with friends? Huge difference to me.


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To many people homeless means you don't have your own home, like staying at someone's house on a couch. It's not your home, you're just staying, because you don't have anywhere to hang your hat. If people have things in storage and staying at friends or relatives I've heard people say they're homeless until they get their own place.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Because in our society, a woman with seven children with four different men is a . A guy in the same situation, however, is just being a guy, and deserves a gold medal and cake even if he just does the bare minimum for the kids.

Full custody is not the bare minimum. IMO



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[winterrose]

I think you'll be hard pressed to find any study that links custody issues and child support squabbles and causes mental illness.

Again, you keep stating as fact that these children suffered because of a turbulent environment.... Please provide a link stating that or stop bashing them


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I don't take it she's bashing them at all, maybe she's stating the fact one of them killed thier sibling all the turbulence caused mental problems in one form or another. Edit... "possibly" caused mental problems, maybe he was born this way, still waiting for court proceedings to hear more.

 

[Linda7NJ]

To many people homeless means you don't have your own home, like staying at someone's house on a couch. It's not your home, you're just staying, because you don't have anywhere to hang your hat. If people have things in storage and staying at friends or relatives I've heard people say they're homeless until they get their own place.

IMO that's a misuse of the word. The usage of that word in this case IMO was used to manipulate and gain sympathy.


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[Gardenlady]

I think you'll be hard pressed to find any study that links custody issues and child support squabbles and causes mental illness.

Again, you keep stating as fact that these children suffered because of a turbulent environment.... Please provide a link stating that or stop bashing them


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We have a set of facts, from MSM articles:

-B has seven children by at least four women.

-B is involved in at least two support cases within the last year: one where he was ordered to get a job to support one of his kids; one where he sought support from Leila and I's mother.

-Leila and I have not seen their mother for at least two years.

One item not from MSM, but from social media, that might give a peek as to what familial attitudes towards the bio parent might have been: fiancée/stepmom's comments that have since been deleted.

Now, stating these facts is not bashing. Sometimes I think posters use the old "you're bashing the family!" as a sort of rhetorical club to beat down arguments with. These are simply facts, no more, no less.

Is it the word "turbulent" you object to? Granted, that's my opinion of what the above facts made for the children in that home. You can disagree with turbulent, but what would you call it? I don't think it could exactly be called ideal, or harmonious, or conducive to emotional stability, do you? If not, how would you characterize it?

 

[Gardenlady]

Full custody is not the bare minimum. IMO



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I wasn't talking specifically about Barney, but societal attitudes towards men/women and having children in general.

However, I'd say generally speaking full custody absolutely CAN be bare minimum. If a person lives an unstable or dangerous lifestyle, is emotionally distant or neglectful, or is cruel, or abusive physically and emotionally, that isn't meeting the duties of being a decent parent.

Not saying that's the case here, but there are many situations where full custody doesn't necessarily mean a person is doing any more than the bare minimum.

 

[Gardenlady]

I don't take it she's bashing them at all, maybe she's stating the fact one of them killed thier sibling all the turbulence caused mental problems in one form or another. Edit... "possibly" caused mental problems, maybe he was born this way, still waiting for court proceedings to hear more.

Thank you. That's really all I'm saying.

 

[Elley Mae]

Most kids that age don't know/understand that they are in a less then desirable conditions.

 

[Linda7NJ]

We have a set of facts, from MSM articles:

-B has seven children by at least four women.

-B is involved in at least two support cases within the last year: one where he was ordered to get a job to support one of his kids; one where he sought support from Leila and I's mother.

-Leila and I have not seen their mother for at least two years.

One item not from MSM, but from social media, that might give a peek as to what familial attitudes towards the bio parent might have been: fiancée/stepmom's comments that have since been deleted.

Now, stating these facts is not bashing. Sometimes I think posters use the old "you're bashing the family!" as a sort of rhetorical club to beat down arguments with. These are simply facts, no more, no less.

Is it the word "turbulent" you object to? Granted, that's my opinion of what the above facts made for the children in that home. You can disagree with turbulent, but what would you call it? I don't think it could exactly be called ideal, or harmonious, or conducive to emotional stability, do you? If not, how would you characterize it?

It's my opinion that sometimes contact with a biological parent is not in the best interest of the children.

I have no idea if the children lived a harmonious life together. I also have no reason to believe they lived in chaos or discord.

Ideal? I believe most children today are not raised ideally. Ideally to me means one parent stays home, the family is cohesive and remains that way and gets along very well, loves each other and works as a team. Money or the lack of makes no difference.

What if the truth was written on FB? it was written by someone intimately involved. Surely that person knows the situation for her vantage point better than you or I. I don't know. You don't know. And more importantly we do not know what wAs shared with these children.

As far as I know, child protective services were never called upon due to neglect or abuse allegations.


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[gitana1]

Quite possible, in light of the public posts on CW's fb about PR that could be so hurtful for children hearing, if they were. Kids love their parents and in divorce/custody it's best to keep comments away from them in private. If this was the cause, it could've been anyone that was the recipient of any rage. The week before this happened BF filed for more child support from PR, who was on disability, the kids could have been hearing alot of adult conversation about it.

I believe that, based on my experience and the ability of the step mom to criticize the mother publicly, on the day her stepson was arrested for murder, there was a boat load of discord these kids were exposed to

I guess I look at this way, Priscilla is on disability and only gets $533 a month. What is her disability? She can't find any kind of work? If she did have the two children living with her she couldn't afford to raise them right? She can come up with all the reasons in the world for not seeing them, she doesn't seem to interested. Why did BF get custody of the children? I just feel we don't know the whole story.

Poverty is not a reason to deny custody. That is resolved through a child support order. So if mom was granted custody but was poor, she would be granted child support from the wealthier parent.

I'm wondering how much of these arguments about child support and access impacted the children though. Some parents have the sense to keep it away from their kids, some don't.

(Linda7NJ - your PM box is full, that's why I can't answer your last message).

Based on the fb post, I believe these kids were exposed.

He had to be ordered to get a job last year to pay support for one of those kids. I'm not sure he stepped up to the plate so much as was told to step.

Either way, I'm not sure how you can say a turbulent family life doesnt create mental illness. Do you have proof to back that claim up? I can think of any number of folks who have developed some form of mental illness or another due to their childhood environments.

I can guarantee you that mental illness In Children dealing with turbulent divorce situations is far from rare.

Can someone give me a date/time for the "nasty" comments of FB of CW regarding custody? Please and thank you. I have only found one cryptic comment that mentions the family not needing this right now or something to that effect which I believe was regarding PR's interview.

Have I not gone back far enough? Where IS all this nasty everyone keeps referring to?

ETA I realize the page is now disabled but I DID read that page and I honestly did not see whatever it is others apparently did. Could someone paraphrase or if it is not authorized to discuss that page in thread then shoot me a PM. I keep seeing this referenced and I do not see what the fluff is about if all that CW said is what I read. It seem to be an accepted fact that CW trashed PR on FB and I DID NOT SEE ANYTHING OF THE KIND.

I did. It was the day the boy was arrested. The step mom was criticizing the mom publicly for her media interview in which she expressed disbelief about the situation and love for the kids. The step mom called her an actress and was basically inferring in posts that the woman had nothing to do with the kids.

My point is I couldn't even walk, let alone expense the energy to criticize the mother of my murdered step daughter and the step son just arrested for her murder. The fact that CW was able to reveals a lot to me.

 

[winterrose]

My point is I couldn't even walk, let alone expense the energy to criticize the mother of my murdered step daughter and the step son just arrested for her murder. The fact that CW was able to reveals a lot to me.

I felt the same way when I saw the bank and donation info right after it happened on the fb page. It's just the girlfriend though, she might not have been close to Leila. At the first presser I saw them the Sheriff seemed a little confused as to her being called the mother and said, "she says she's the mother", so I'm wondering if they had already talked to PR as the mother and CW didn't have the same name.

 

[MissJ]

JMO but to excuse anyone who kills because they live in a turbulent life is a discredit to those of us who have survived such a life. Many of us actually prosper. There is something very wrong with a 12 year old who even thinks of killing and its not his home life. Some mental illness is biological, if in fact he is mentally ill. I was the oldest of six children left to care for them while both parents worked. I resented it but it made me a super responsible care taker in my professional life. Never once did I ever consider hurting anyone. I endured other abuse that is too horrible to discuss. A turbulent life did not make this child kill. I know many, many people like me so I have experience to back my opinion up. Still JMO