GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[Zuckerschnecke]

I'm hesitant to post anything after the somewhat not so friendly reason for having one of my posts snipped. I had merely said parents should not engage in battle by means of fighting for support and using the court as the way of perpetrating hurt on the other parent. Didn't say any parents in particular, but in general. Oh well. Maybe the rules changed now.

It's very easy to compartmentalize things in a way that make it for so there is some 'sense' for this senseless crime. IMO, okay mods, IMO only, this is not cut and dry or a one reason validation. This kid could have had some emotional issues that maybe were or were not being addressed and I think it's very possible the parents, with all the drama that seemed to be going on in their lives, may have missed the signals. Blame them? Who am I to judge. I have a complicated life myself so that I would not do. The kid certainly should have been old enough to know right from wrong. Who failed? Was he born defective? Was it a combination of things? It's very very compex, and while I think the parents might be most guilty of DENIAL, can they be held accountable for other things such as neglect? I think this type of thing can happen to the best families, people and without knowing his motive - heck, he does not know what a motive IS, it's not easy to pin the blame on any one thing. Likely, this will turn out to be a combination of the kid being upset about something, having his own 12 year old justification, parents worried about their ongoing problems, kid not feeling 'heard' or feeling worthwhile. I can see how this is gonna play out and it's very very 'gray'.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I do know that times have changed, and as far as I am concerned they are not getting better. I do wish that all states had laws that forbid parent/parents from leaving their children home unsupervised until the age of 16. If a kid under the age of 16 can not be held accountable for their actions while at home alone/or babysitting, then the parents should be held accountable for their actions. It seems that to lots of people being under the age of 16 that you are brain dead and can not be held responsible for any and all actions that you may do while out of the presents of an adult. jmo but if he is found to be responsible he should never be allowed out. NEVER.

Thats a whole lot of common sense !

I took a lot of teasing and taunting by friends that I refused to employ their children to babysit mine. I only trusted my parents.

One day, one of "those" friends.. 14 year old daughter walked into the kitchen as we were chatting. She wanted a ride to her friends house. I opened my purse, pulled out my car keys and handed them to her daughter. "Here take my car" they both looked at me like *i* was insane. I more than made my point that day




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[Jhon]

Why is it that any time someone tries to figure out a "reason" that people equate it with an "excuse?"

Funny thing, language. "Reason" implies WHY something happened. And you note yourself that "reason" can mean "excuse".

I think the word you should be using is MOTIVE. That implies WHY a given person reacted without the ambiguity of "excuse".

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I do know that times have changed, and as far as I am concerned they are not getting better. I do wish that all states had laws that forbid parent/parents from leaving their children home unsupervised until the age of 16. If a kid under the age of 16 can not be held accountable for their actions while at home alone/or babysitting, then the parents should be held accountable for their actions. It seems that to lots of people being under the age of 16 that you are brain dead and can not be held responsible for any and all actions that you may do while out of the presents of an adult. jmo but if he is found to be responsible he should never be allowed out. NEVER.

Just because some sick kids are committing crimes while home alone doesn't mean the rest of America needs to be punished. Making it so kids under 16 can't be home alone would be extremely inconvenient for most families. What about parents who work full-time? Where do their kids go? Some schools have after-school programs, but have a certain number of kids they can accept. And what happens if both parents (or one parent in a single parent home) want to go to somewhere for like 2 hours...why does the 15-year-old have to come too?

Kids under 16 are held accountable for their actions. It varies by state, but it's usually under age 8-10, that they cannot be charged with a crime. I don't see a lot of people who say that anyone under 16 is brain dead and shouldn't be held responsible for their actions? I don't see anyone saying that actually.

 

[winterrose]

Okay, Who broke it? Finally got on to see if there's any new info?

 

[Salem]

We have been down for hours! Adnoid got everything all fixed up though and we are rarin' to go!!! :woohoo:

Salem

 

[winterrose]

LOL Well good, for awhile I thought it was my computer.

 

[Kaliste]

We have been down for hours! Adnoid got everything all fixed up though and we are rarin' to go!!! :woohoo:

Salem

Way to go, Adnoid!! I never realized how addicted to WS I was, omits have tried connecting a dozen times.

 

[Gardenlady]

When I'm not sure if I'm broken, or WS is, I go here:

http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/

To see if its just me or not.

I was hitting that site a lot today! :crazy:

 

[Elainera]

When I'm not sure if I'm broken, or WS is, I go here:

http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/

To see if its just me or not.

I was hitting that site a lot today! :crazy:

Me too! Was relieved to see it wasn't just me.

For a second though I was wondering if I had been banned due to "bashing victims". :scared: Although I don't really do that.

Funny thing, language. "Reason" implies WHY something happened. And you note yourself that "reason" can mean "excuse".

I think the word you should be using is MOTIVE. That implies WHY a given person reacted without the ambiguity of "excuse".

Spot on! Motive it should be called by everybody.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I've been lurking since this all began and finally joined yesterday. I grew up in the Valley Springs area, still live fairly close, and have lots of friends and family living in and around VS.

In regards to the timelines that are being created. I think it is possible that a wrong assumption is being made that LF "died" at 1:01 pm. We know that she was "pronounced" dead at that time. In CA EMS personnel cannot pronounce people dead. Under very specific criteria they can declare a person dead but it still takes a coroner or a MD to pronounce. I also think based on my familiarity with various EMS personnel that there is a HUGE possibility, that even if there was no pulse, etc when they arrived, that usually extraordinary measures are taken in regards to children and I think those would've been taken in an attempt to lessen what was most definitely an already chaotic scene.

Not sure if I'm getting my point across correctly, but basically, EMS rolls up to a stabbing scene with parents and children most likely freaking out, screaming etc and I don't think even if the subject was obviously dead that would declare them dead at that point. I think they would scoop them up and get out of there asap. I think being pronounced only 6 minutes after arrival tells a lot. IMO LF was very possibly already deceased when EMS arrived.

I have doubts about that because this was a murder case which the murderer had escaped as far as LE knew then..LE needed all sort of exact information from the medicals such as the exact death time if possible or they try to get it by the forensics..That is very important for the investigation..

IMO if she was already dead when they arrived , I agree with you the EMS personnel and the doctors would again take the extraordinary measures and try to lessen the chaotic scene as if there was pulse but afterwards in their declaration they would mention that she was already dead when arrived to the hospital..they wouldn't go on with the false information of 6 minutes after the arrival..Just my opinions...

(English is my second language so sorry for my mistakes )

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Okay, Who broke it? Finally got on to see if there's any new info?

I thought maybe it was peeps posting news/photos of the terrible tornado in Moore, OK that broke it.

(Either that, or the site was hacked by the Mob when they found out I was posting about that arsonist-who-shall-remain-unnamed... ;D).

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

When I'm not sure if I'm broken, or WS is, I go here:

http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/

To see if its just me or not.

I was hitting that site a lot today! :crazy:

that dumb site was telling me it was just me though. Said WS was up each time I checked it. Must be a scam site, trolling for people to pay for something.

 

[Gardenlady]

It's not a scam. I've always used it and never had a problem. :waitasec:

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

It's not a scam. I've always used it and never had a problem. :waitasec:

Ok, maybe not a scam, but it kept telling me that it was just me. I am always leery of sites with .com endings for stuff like this. Regardless, I am glad we are back to work! Sorry GL - did not mean to ruffle your feathers! big hug.

 

[Gardenlady]

Oh, not ruffled, just don't want anyone to think I'd steer them to spam! :blowkiss:

I have no financial interest in the site... Tho I feel like i probably account for about half their traffic some days, I obsess that much! :lol:

 

[evelyn24]

Well, I just linked to several articles that state just that. Certain mental conditions have genetic or organic components, like schizophrenia, but various mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, personality disorders, etc., absolutely can be caused by environmental factors. There is a boat load of research supporting that.

It's not 100% conclusive though and it's something experts disagree on and if you have one point of view you can find a lot of articles one way, and vice versa. Hence the always infamous battle of experts in court when it comes to mental illness.
Providing links to support your particular POV doesn't make it 100 percent the fact. It's something to consider but, there is always the other side. There are many conflicting views when it come to mental illness and environment vs genetics, and conflicting expert views on what should even be considered a true mental illness.
To say "Oh THIS mental illness is most likely from environmental factors, but THIS one is most likely from genetics" would be incorrect and simplistic.
You used depression and anxiety as two examples of mental illness that can be brought on by environment. Possibly true, but there have been studies to show these can also be genetic. Another thing, not all depression and anxiety is mental illness. You see? Many Many variables. And frankly it takes many many sessions with a trained professional to weed through and diagnose someone properly. Something that I don't think has been done in this case.......yet.

There isn't even agreement on personality disorders vs mental illness:

http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/health/mental-illness-or-just-personality-traits#page1

This is a subject, depending on your experience, politics, and background could be debated forever.

 

[winterrose]

I thought maybe it was peeps posting news/photos of the terrible tornado in Moore, OK that broke it.

(Either that, or the site was hacked by the Mob when they found out I was posting about that arsonist-who-shall-remain-unnamed... ;D).

Ah Ha! So it was you.. JK JK

 

[evelyn24]

Interesting case and lots of similarities to this one. Thanks evelyn!

This is from the homepage:
http://www.zachwitman.com/



Worth a read.

He's still in jail after 15 years.

Oh you're welcome.
I see I got the ages wrong but, it's an interesting case for sure.

 

[mysteriew]

It's not 100% conclusive though and it's something experts disagree on and if you have one point of view you can find a lot of articles one way, and vice versa. Hence the always infamous battle of experts in court when it comes to mental illness.
Providing links to support your particular POV doesn't make it 100 percent the fact. It's something to consider but, there is always the other side. There are many conflicting views when it come to mental illness and environment vs genetics, and conflicting expert views on what should even be considered a true mental illness.
To say "Oh THIS mental illness is most likely from environmental factors, but THIS one is most likely from genetics" would be incorrect and simplistic.
You used depression and anxiety as two examples of mental illness that can be brought on by environment. Possibly true, but there have been studies to show these can also be genetic. Another thing, not all depression and anxiety is mental illness. You see? Many Many variables. And frankly it takes many many sessions with a trained professional to weed through and diagnose someone properly. Something that I don't think has been done in this case.......yet.

There isn't even agreement on personality disorders vs mental illness:

http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/health/mental-illness-or-just-personality-traits#page1

This is a subject, depending on your experience, politics, and background could be debated forever.

She has a good point. I have depression and have had for years. I have been told various things about the depression. It is physical, my body doesn't produce enough Seritonin, it is an emotional illness, low levels of vitamin D in the body has been connected to depression and even that my genetics may have made me suseptible.)

The truth is they really don't know what causes most mental health disorders. (for instance in a family group where there are 4 kids and at least one parent with schizophrenia, not all the kids will have schizophrenia. Maybe none of them will.) They can say they believe there may be a genetic connection, but they can't truly say for sure.