CA CA - Los Angeles, WhtMale 30-45, UP3713, cyanide suicide in hotel room, Oct'93

[Bit of hope]

I don't know why it's written in Hindi.

Thanks for all your work! About the answer of the LA coroner...at least you get an answer. The Hindi remark makes me laugh (at you, not over you). Same question here.

 

[Bit of hope]

Hi! I’m new to Websleuths and a long time lurker of this board. This case has always fascinated me. I had a little free time this evening and decided to try to work on separating the two last names on the signature. Magnifying the signature and also using an Apple pen, I tried to remove the “Deering” name from the one that was written first. I ended up with a name that looks like Walberg or Walburg? Maybe Waltz? Maybe it is another fake name too though but who knows, maybe not? I am still working with the first name. Thank you for reading. I’m happy to be here and to hear any feedback

Greatly appreciated and welcome. He looks very German to me....My first guess for the name was Welch (not German, but English BTW)

 

[Bit of hope]

Somehow I read Earl in the signature. Going for a Earl I found this missing man.

Earl Lee Dannels

• Missing Since 10/01/1969
• Missing From Albany, California
• Classification Missing
• Sex Male
• Race White
• Date of Birth 10/08/1949 Would have been 44 in 1993 UID 30 - 40
• Age 19 years old
• Height and Weight 5'9, 150 pounds UID 5'9
• Distinguishing Characteristics Caucasian male. Brown hair, blue eyes. UID brown hair, blue eye

Earl has the pronounced cupid bow, relatively long nose and thin hair. Only the ears is a question mark.

 

[Tired Professor]

Wow! Looks like a good match. I see your point about the ears but if the picture of “Paul” was photoshopped to the blue background or even taken at an odd angle, maybe his ears could be more pronounced than they appear in the postmortem? My only reservation is the eyebrows, but maybe if they had been extremely “groomed” (for lack of a better term) maybe they would appear to be match the eyebrows in the postmortem pic? I still think it should be send in as a possible match, the resemblance is certainly there!

 

[Susikatze]

Greatly appreciated and welcome. He looks very German to me....My first guess for the name was Welch (not German, but English BTW)

I read "Walters".

 

[Susikatze]

Greatly appreciated and welcome. He looks very German to me....My first guess for the name was Welch (not German, but English BTW)

German, maybe, though I dont know how "Germans" are supposed to look like. I am half German and everybody looks different. Did he have an accent?

 

[John doe 2021]

Has anyone suggested this guy?

https://charleyproject.org/case/norman-lamar-praterI

Interestingly, the image of age progression has a certain similarity to Paul's facial reconstruction

 

[dotr]

Has anyone suggested this guy?

https://charleyproject.org/case/norman-lamar-praterI

Interestingly, the image of age progression has a certain similarity to Paul's facial reconstruction

• Welcome to Ws John doe 2021!
• Norman Lamar Prater – The Charley Project
  
• Had a little problem accessing link, so re posting it just in case.
• • 
  • 
  • 
  Norman, circa 1973; Age-progression to age 55 (circa 2011)
  
  

 

[John doe 2021]

[QUOTE = "dotr, publicación: 16559303, miembro: 48729"]

• ¡Bienvenido a Ws John Doe 2021!
• Norman Lamar Prater - El proyecto Charley
  
• Tuve un pequeño problema para acceder al enlace, así que vuelva a publicarlo por si acaso.
• • 
  • 
  • 
  Norman, alrededor de 1973; Progresión de edad hasta los 55 años (alrededor de 2011)
  

[/CITAR]
Have you seen this child?

1478DMTX - Norman Lamar Prater

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

Norman Lamar Prater – The Charley Project

There are more links, I feel that physically they are very similar!

 

[Bit of hope]

Has anyone suggested this guy?

https://charleyproject.org/case/norman-lamar-praterI

Interestingly, the image of age progression has a certain similarity to Paul's facial reconstruction

Hi and welcome. John Doe's chin looks to be strong and masculin, with a litte dent....Norman Lamar Prater's chin doesn't seem to be like that. BUT...actually I think it's very near. The nose...those blue eyes.....

 

[Bit of hope]

[QUOTE = "dotr, publicación: 16559303, miembro: 48729"]

• ¡Bienvenido a Ws John Doe 2021!
• Norman Lamar Prater - El proyecto Charley
  
• Tuve un pequeño problema para acceder al enlace, así que vuelva a publicarlo por si acaso.
• • 
  • 
  • 
  Norman, alrededor de 1973; Progresión de edad hasta los 55 años (alrededor de 2011)

[/CITAR]
Have you seen this child?

1478DMTX - Norman Lamar Prater

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

Norman Lamar Prater – The Charley Project

There are more links, I feel that physically they are very similar!

Because you are new....and I hate teaching.....this is very helpful Match Making Tips

Wes Neville (Project EDAN Artist) Comments

(This is in reference to what is concrete and what is artist interpretation with regard to reconstructions and sketches.)

"Any of the "fleshy" areas of the face are open to some interpretation.

The skull will dictate basically how the cheeks will appear, but you (the artist) never really knows how that person may have aged, had scars, etc (with skeletal remains).

The eyes are usually fairly close IF you have a good anthropologist report to work with. The report will tell the artist how to depict the eyes. The skull, orbits in particular, tells you if the eyes are large, small, squinted, etc.. They also let you know the general shape of the eyebrows.

Mouth size is fairly accurate, but the result is usually a generic lip.. right size, but shape varies from person to person... SO, look for width and height for accuracy...

The nose is an accurate feature provided the nasal spine and upper region of the nasal opening is intact.

Ears are an educated guess... The average ear size is said to be from the brows to the tip of the nose.

Dimples are guesswork, there are no studies that I am aware of that will definitively determine whether or not dimples are a result of skull makeup.

Wrinkles are determined by age, shape of eye, ethnicity, and geographical location where the individual may have been from.

The biggest and best identifier is the "proportions" of the skull - how each feature relates to the other.."

Jerry Nance (Retired NCMEC Case Manager) Comments

"You start by taking the physical descriptors (age, height etc, date of disappearance vs Estimated Date of Death) and look for everything that will DISPROVE the Jane or John is so and so.

Once you can not establish that it is not them, then start to work on the other side, look at the distances, known items of clothing, matching scars, tattoos, etc. The more you find on the plus side, the higher is your probability of a match.

Low is nothing positive, but nothing negative, Medium means things like distance and clothing is close, High is the markers that could be distinctive, things like one leg shorter than the other, unique dental work or tooth structure, etc.

Once you have that, then look at the physical pictures but be careful if you are comparing it to a reconstruction because things like hair line nose, lips, ears, etc may not be accurate.

On a comparison of the photos, look at the ears (almost as good as a fingerprint) jaw line, eye sockets, mouth line, arch of eyebrows, general placement of the eyes to the nose to the upper lip. Most people will look at the general face and say yes, that is him. To get better results, break the face up and examine the pieces."

Various Members

"When evaluating a Potential Match, we all look for the same basic things: timing, physical stats, resemblance, body markings, jewelry, clothing, distance and possible geographical connections, circumstances, medical conditions, broken bones, prosthetic devices, mental health issues, substance abuse, etc.. Ask yourself can differences in the MP and UID reports be reasonably reconciled without a convoluted explanation or a great degree of speculation?"

"When considering submissions for a potential match, the stats between the MP and UID should be relatively close in order to make reasonable comparison. Many times the stats are so far off that it's blatantly obvious that there could not be a match. More substantive thinking should be utilized in the process when searching and the submitter should ask 'does this actually make sense and have the potential to be a real match?'"

"I think estimated date of death should be looked at more closely when making a Potential Match. Granted they can be off some, but I feel it is important to see that the EDD is much closer to the disappearance."

"The match should not be submitted for purposes of obtaining a rule out. Law Enforcement is not interested in making rule outs; they want to make bona fide matches. Dental comparisons and DNA comparisons are quite expensive and are not reasons in and of themselves to submit a match. We want to submit the best possible matches. The goal is making a match, not making a rule out."

"Look at the total picture, not just the height/weight and hair/eye color. Too often, submitters place a disproportionate importance on the fact that the height and weight match. That's a part of it, but there are billion dollar clothing businesses that are successful based on the fact that most of us can be categorized into clothing sizes by our height/weight and can order online or thru catalogs. In other words, its not unusual for a woman to be 5'5" and weigh 130 lbs. or a male to be 5'10" and weigh 170 lbs. - what else makes this a match? Height and weight statistics alone are not enough to submit a match to Law Enforcement. The same reasoning fits with hair and eye color. There are millions of blue eyed blondes in the world. The fact that the Unidentified and the missing person both have blonde hair and blue eyes does not mean much without any other connecting circumstances which would merit the attention of Law Enforcement."

"To narrow down your choices, you could look for definite rule-outs such as conflicting medical information between the MP and UID, eg. previous injuries, evidence of pregnancies, piercings, tattoos... Of course some of these things wouldn't be discovered in skeletal remains."

From Doe member Julie Lampe:

• Lay out all the cases - Missing and unidentified chronologically. Then do different sorts by date and location, for example.
• Open 2 windows of Namus - one with Missing, one with Unidentified. Then go through the chronological list and literally open every record. If its a Missing person, search Namus Unidentified (nationwide) for the usual things - Age, Race, Body found after missing date, etc. If the list is small enough, then open all those records and see if there is anything about the circumstances, clothing, jewelry, that are similar. Also look at other sources (Doe forum, news links, facebook) to see if there is more to support the circumstances.
• If they have unique belongings or clothing, do logic searches on those (for example, winter coat and shorts).
• Searching for tattoos or scars isn't always helpful, as those degrade/decompose quite quickly.
• Note when people go missing or are found together.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Refreshing for Paul...

 

[Bit of hope]

when I tried to click to the original Namus link in this thread, it came back as dead.

here is the current Namus profile for the UID, no rule outs:

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

brief description is a WM, 30-45, 5'9", 182 lbs., brown hair, blue eyes. no images at Namus now.

I don't know how a suicide by cyanide would lead to post-mortem loss of teeth but that is what the dental section says.

one last comment, this was set up as a possible match for Sean Durkin from the UK and at least 2 others have been discussed as possible matches.

I'm really fascinated by the remark of the post-mortem loss of teeth....I explored some forensic scientific stuff on cyanide poisoning and I can't find anything on this issue.

 

[MadMcGoo]

I thought it was a law in CA that they remove the jaws of the unidentified, so I double checked, and it is, so that's why the postmortem status of the tooth removal.

California Code, Government Code - GOV § 27521 | FindLaw <RSBM>

I'm really fascinated by the remark of the post-mortem loss of teeth....I explored some forensic scientific stuff on cyanide poisoning and I can't find anything on this issue.

I just finished reading through the thread, so I remember seeing this about the jaw removal. I’ve never heard of it! Still not sure that explains it.

 

[Bit of hope]

I just finished reading through the thread, so I remember seeing this about the jaw removal. I’ve never heard of it! Still not sure that explains it.

Now that we are talking about it...there is another case in California (not related) but after searching they recently found a jaw bone of a Jane Doe found deceased in 1994 and several others, stored somewhere....so it might have been "the thing" back then.

 

[Grungster]

I personally don't think Paul was or ever reported as a missing person to police.

 

[Beekarina]

Marion Grant Watts. His height is listed as a bit taller, and he disappeared 10 years earlier, but I can see facial similarities. I'm not sure what kind of story has him out in the world without making contact for a decade, but just noting.

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

 

[cherryzard]

Hello everyone. This would be my first time ever posting on a thread like this on Websleuths, so if I make any sort of mistake or not a very good statement, I apologize.

The circumstances to this case are very strange and seemingly depressing, raises the questions as to why he would do it, why did he decide such a painful death, why would he leave his wife by dying (Based on the fact that he was wearing a wedding ring).

Anyway, a thing that strikes me regarding this case is the following: Economic status (Was this man "well-off"? Was he middle class?) The hotel wherein he commited the act seemed to be a very wealthy and private area, based on past threads and some looking at least; you would've had to have some sort of money to enter to such hotel/area (The hotel document there says that he paid $200 dollars, IIRC). So, based on the wealth of the man, then that might give us some sort of clue as to what his occupation was, therefore giving us (Maybe) a clue as to where he got the cyanide.

Someone on this same thread said that people that commited suicide by cyanide poisoning usually had positions like chemists, photographers, jewelers, pest control involvement, etc. Chemists and pest control people seem to be well paid enough, chemists seemingly having a salary that ranges over 50k or 68k, and pest control people having around 50k or even more.

Assuming the man had ties to both California and Utah (Based on the address he gave on the paper) on California if he had been a chemist or a pest control person: He would be making 66k as a chemist and as a pest control person he would be making 32k, relatively okay.

On Utah, though, he would be making less as a chemist (I gotta mention that the site I am using is called salary.com and for Chemist I am putting Chemist I, so he could be making more if he was Chemist II or III, and for the pest control thing I am putting Pest Control technician), as a chemist on Utah he would be making 56k, at least as chemist I, so he could probably be making even more if he was another range of chemist in Utah. Regarding pest control on Utah, he would be making 32k as a pest controller technician, but assuming he is on a higher rank of it he would be making a lot more.

And I really don't know how a photographer could have access to cyanide (I apologize for my ignorance), but if he was a well off photographer then it makes total sense that he is on LA, LA being a really artistic based city, although I really doubt he is originally from there, he was nearby an airport so he more than likely was not from the area, or if he was, he was expecting some sort of flight.

So, those salaries and occupations would kind of give away his status level and how he has such access to such a strong chemical such as cyanide, although I really could be far off. If we could know what BMW exactly he owned it could be a huge lead.

Another thing that interests me is where he could be from, he really does strike me as eastern european or with some sort of mediterranean influence, based on the overall "look" of the post mortem photo and the great reconstruction made.

If he was indeed eastern european, then it makes a lot of sense that he would have stolen the identity from someone if he was involved in some sort of criminal activity, although I kind of doubt that.

Does he have his DNA taken? And is there some sort of dental recollection? I keep trying to see it on NamUs but I really can't see anything that indicates it.

The dental work and DNA could really tell us where he might be from.

And another thing that caught my eye, did the "Real" Paul Deering know who the man might be? What was this man's occupation? Because if he gave that exact address then he either figured it out somehow or he knew about it based off work or a friend, or, he or a family member/friend could have owned the property the "Real" Paul Deering lived in. Those records might be somewhere.

And, finally, far off theories as to the "Why?" he would do it, would be a bit of a reach but here I will give it anyways: The man either had severe money problems and entered to a deep depression because of it, or he had widowed his wife and decided to "join" her or a messy divorce or heartbreak was occurring and entered into a deep depression because of it (Although he was still wearing the ring, which does not make sense, unless he really loved her).

These are just my 2 cents, I admire the capability and intelligence you all have regarding these cases, those are talents. I hope this man is identified very soon and it brings peace to any family he might have. Thanks for reading.

 

[Tired Professor]

Hello everyone. This would be my first time ever posting on a thread like this on Websleuths, so if I make any sort of mistake or not a very good statement, I apologize.

The circumstances to this case are very strange and seemingly depressing, raises the questions as to why he would do it, why did he decide such a painful death, why would he leave his wife by dying (Based on the fact that he was wearing a wedding ring).

Anyway, a thing that strikes me regarding this case is the following: Economic status (Was this man "well-off"? Was he middle class?) The hotel wherein he commited the act seemed to be a very wealthy and private area, based on past threads and some looking at least; you would've had to have some sort of money to enter to such hotel/area (The hotel document there says that he paid $200 dollars, IIRC). So, based on the wealth of the man, then that might give us some sort of clue as to what his occupation was, therefore giving us (Maybe) a clue as to where he got the cyanide.

Someone on this same thread said that people that commited suicide by cyanide poisoning usually had positions like chemists, photographers, jewelers, pest control involvement, etc. Chemists and pest control people seem to be well paid enough, chemists seemingly having a salary that ranges over 50k or 68k, and pest control people having around 50k or even more.

Assuming the man had ties to both California and Utah (Based on the address he gave on the paper) on California if he had been a chemist or a pest control person: He would be making 66k as a chemist and as a pest control person he would be making 32k, relatively okay.

On Utah, though, he would be making less as a chemist (I gotta mention that the site I am using is called salary.com and for Chemist I am putting Chemist I, so he could be making more if he was Chemist II or III, and for the pest control thing I am putting Pest Control technician), as a chemist on Utah he would be making 56k, at least as chemist I, so he could probably be making even more if he was another range of chemist in Utah. Regarding pest control on Utah, he would be making 32k as a pest controller technician, but assuming he is on a higher rank of it he would be making a lot more.

And I really don't know how a photographer could have access to cyanide (I apologize for my ignorance), but if he was a well off photographer then it makes total sense that he is on LA, LA being a really artistic based city, although I really doubt he is originally from there, he was nearby an airport so he more than likely was not from the area, or if he was, he was expecting some sort of flight.

So, those salaries and occupations would kind of give away his status level and how he has such access to such a strong chemical such as cyanide, although I really could be far off. If we could know what BMW exactly he owned it could be a huge lead.

Another thing that interests me is where he could be from, he really does strike me as eastern european or with some sort of mediterranean influence, based on the overall "look" of the post mortem photo and the great reconstruction made.

If he was indeed eastern european, then it makes a lot of sense that he would have stolen the identity from someone if he was involved in some sort of criminal activity, although I kind of doubt that.

Does he have his DNA taken? And is there some sort of dental recollection? I keep trying to see it on NamUs but I really can't see anything that indicates it.

The dental work and DNA could really tell us where he might be from.

And another thing that caught my eye, did the "Real" Paul Deering know who the man might be? What was this man's occupation? Because if he gave that exact address then he either figured it out somehow or he knew about it based off work or a friend, or, he or a family member/friend could have owned the property the "Real" Paul Deering lived in. Those records might be somewhere.

And, finally, far off theories as to the "Why?" he would do it, would be a bit of a reach but here I will give it anyways: The man either had severe money problems and entered to a deep depression because of it, or he had widowed his wife and decided to "join" her or a messy divorce or heartbreak was occurring and entered into a deep depression because of it (Although he was still wearing the ring, which does not make sense, unless he really loved her).

These are just my 2 cents, I admire the capability and intelligence you all have regarding these cases, those are talents. I hope this man is identified very soon and it brings peace to any family he might have. Thanks for reading.

Welcome to Webslueths. I completely agree with you and also feel he was likely “well off” or at least middle class. This case seems solvable. I can’t help but think that there is/was a BMW sitting abandoned somewhere (quite likely at an airport) or maybe it was abandoned in the care of someone? But if so, why are we not seeing a missing person’s report? This makes me think that maybe he’s foreign. I get that the report could have been lost, but being foreign might also explain why anyone close to him has yet to locate him.

 

[Melt71]

[QUOTE="Tired Professor, post: 17072799, member: 268299] But if so, why are we not seeing a missing person’s report? This makes me think that maybe he’s foreign. I get that the report could have been lost, but being foreign might also explain why anyone close to him has yet to locate him.[/QUOTE]

Yes being foreign is an option but let’s be honest, it’s far more frequent for us to hear that reports were lost, or never taken down by police despite family efforts.And so many MP reports aren’t in Namus.