GUILTY CA - Madyson Middleton, 8, Santa Cruz, 26 July 2015 - #3 *Arrest*

[justwannahelp]

Her mother's wonderfully compassionate and full of grace attitude just makes me think of what a wonderful young lady and woman Madyson would likely become. It's just too sad.

Yes. This. I agree. She was taken to soon 😢

 

[AmyPond]

For now, I cannot in good conscience put any blame on her parents. As things come out...I could always change my mind though. I googled that Austin Sigg person mentioned earlier and read a bit about that case and I certainly blame his mom for not getting him proper help. If things like that come out in the case...I may have similar feelings.

But yeah...for now, I just don't know anything at all about his home life so I can't really place blame on anyone but AJG.

Oops...just re-read this. I meant HIS parents in that first sentence.

 

[human]

There has to be somethings that are severe for a child to do something like this. The only thing I know of personally is a guy who was in the family of a student I had. He took a girl off of a street, put her in his trunk and tied her to a tree. He left her gecause he could not go through with the rape.

She was found easily. He had just been released from prison earlier. He came from a family where the father was in prison for sexually abusing the sister.

She was ostracized and said to be a liar by the family. She was a prostitute.

Who knows what else went on in that family. But even he did not rape.

Severe things happen to make these children so sick. Events can change the brain.

Delving into the lives of these brutal killers paint pictures of very disturbing things happening to them. It was thought that Ted Bundy's garndfather was his father. And his sister his mother, Brittney Wood's family was filled with generations of sex abuse.

Jeffrey Dahmer had a life of strange family dynamics.

Austin Sigg had a strange life with the paternal side.

The Menendez boys experienced violence from the father as well as the father's nunerous infidelities. These are the broad brush. Then there are the hundreds of interactions that happen everyday that interact with the child.

In a dysfunctional family, one of the children is selected to be the source of all problems. If it was not for that child, the family would be fine.

 

[Lmustang89]

I cannot tell you how many times I heard that a kid is horrible from the parents.

The parents never thought to look at their own selves. What were they doing? Drinking, doing drugs, having boyfriends or girlfriends over and over again, for instance.

When a child is in trouble, the whole family should go in for counseling. Mandatory.

Thank you for saying that. My mother is a narcissist. The poor me, victim like, controlling, verbally abusive etc. I was always called names by her. I was called selfish (for not asking how her dr apt was - hypochrondiac, many apts), fat, clumsy, not as pretty as her, lazy, etc. I had zero self esteem. She would smack me, verbally abuse me, humiliate me (and in front of people), very very controlling over every part of my life (what I could wear, who could cut my hair, what I should or shouldn't say to family members etc). So much more (I could write a book). Even left my youngest brother in a playpen outside in the driveway when I was 6 and he almost burned to death, she was advised by the hospital to give him up for adoption (I did find he years later but mentally he wasn't the same - heat damage to his brain?). I sought out counselling many times. Finally found the right counselor a couple of years ago. Wanted to know why I married the wrong guys (narcisstic types). I was marrying my mother over and over. She married 8 times until this last one she could control. Me married at 18, divorced at 36, married 2nd one twice and the third one from date site. Now so much better off. All of the counselors said I could have turned out worse and were surprised I didn't. They said I had a survivor in me.

 

[borndem]

I wish there was some formula in which we could input data that would give a definitive answer to whether someone will do unspeakable things. I also wish when parents have certain data, they would choose to be honest and be able to cast aside the wrongful stigma of mental illness and seek help.

Oh, how I agree! Part of the problem is knowing what to look for and knowing whom to consult. Fever, sore throat -- might be strep -- go to pediatrician or family doctor. Insurance will pay for a lot of that, prolly even the antibiotics. But mental illness is not as easy -- there are no MI thermometers, and what doctor should we consult? (Unless we know, we should start with the family doc and get his/her opinion, and a recommendation for a specialist.) And when insurance companies are so tight-fisted with continuing support, especially if the child or adult is in a hospital-type situation, they often stop paying for that after 10 or 20 or 30 days, or a number of hours for private appts. Insurance companies are to blame for so many problems people have with MI treatment, and we, as parents or partners aren't very well-informed about symptoms of MI unless a thing progresses to a point where it is plainly obvious to everyone -- and when the individual is already that sick, STS, it's a bad, tuff road for the patient and those close. It's such a shame that MI is still regarded as something to hid and not discuss. SMH.

ETA: And states and counties are closing their psychiatric hospitals and clinics, prolly due to the lack of insurance support. And one result of having nowhere to go, as we sadly know, is the individual will end up on the street or incarcerated.

 

[Inthedetails]

I posted upthread (or on the previous thread) about a neighbor boy who hurt a family member to see what the reaction would be. He is a smart boy from a well-respected family, but clearly troubled. The mom has made efforts to help the child, but what exactly is the protocol to follow?

There isn't much you CAN do with a troubled child who hasn't yet committed a crime but who might be capable of it. Juvenile detention is not a healing place where most parents would want to put their child, and it's not the place for "potential" violent offenders anyway. The boy I know had a terrible time in school because he was put in classes for troubled youth, but they were remedial classes when this boy was advanced academically. There was no place for him.

It's very easy to blame the parents, but they are lost in many cases and rely on "hope for the future." In the case of my neighbor, I myself even feel uncomfortable as I see the potential this boy has for violence, but what do I do as a casual acquaintance other than....stay away??

 

[Lilibet]

I don't want these articles to derail the thread to a discussion of the cases mentioned. PLEASE! But I think they provide balanced information from experts about the parents' role (blame) in creating a child who kills. There are other influences (societal and physical) that may play as much or more of a role in the results as parents. We don't yet have the whole story about AJG. Based on these articles, it seems to me that there may be a lot more at play than a chaotic childhood or poor parenting. A parent not seeing signs of problems does not necessarily mean they are a bad parent. JMO

Fox, who studies mass murderers and serial killers, says it's misguided to blame perpetrators' families for their crimes."We're a nation of finger-pointers," he said. "We blame them for having raised a monster." But often, he and others said, families are just as surprised as the rest of us — and just as traumatized.

When young people turn violent, we naturally turn to parenting to explain what went wrong, even though research suggests that hidden, often undiagnosed mental health problems — as well as perpetrators' relationships with peers, teachers and others — can play a much bigger role.
"Obviously parenting has an effect," Fox said. "But to create this kind of outcome, the parent would have to be … a tremendously bad parent. And you generally don't find that."

Fox, whose research has included interviews with family members of spree killers, said young people turn violent despite the best efforts of the parents. "I'm not going to say that some of the parents I've known have been the greatest and belong to the 'Hallmark Hall of Fame of Good Mothers and Dads,' but they also shouldn't be perceived as a Dr. Frankenstein, as someone who created a monster."

A U.S. Secret Service report on school shooters found that nearly two-thirds came from two-parent families. Johns Hopkins University sociologist Katherine Newman, who has studied school shooters and their families, said parents are usually "quite blind to what is happening — or they are not being shown the side of their child that turns out to be a killer."
Like Fox, she cautions against judging parents too harshly, saying the high school-aged shooters she studied were "very adept at showing one side of their character to adults and another side to their peers — and so their peers are usually not that surprised and the adults are all shocked."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news...-25/experts-killers-families-mourn/56488544/1

A Scientific study about the brain and killers:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/04/980410101830.htm

 

[human]

It is a disservice to say we don't know what causes issues with children. We know plenty.

Here is an article from Harvard. Somewhat long but easy to read. It is about how severe stress changes the brain of children.

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download_file/-/view/469/

 

[Lilibet]

I posted upthread (or on the previous thread) about a neighbor boy who hurt a family member to see what the reaction would be. He is a smart boy from a well-respected family, but clearly troubled. The mom has made efforts to help the child, but what exactly is the protocol to follow?

There isn't much you CAN do with a troubled child who hasn't yet committed a crime but who might be capable of it. Juvenile detention is not a healing place where most parents would want to put their child, and it's not the place for "potential" violent offenders anyway. The boy I know had a terrible time in school because he was put in classes for troubled youth, but they were remedial classes when this boy was advanced academically. There was no place for him.

It's very easy to blame the parents, but they are lost in many cases and rely on "hope for the future." In the case of my neighbor, I myself even feel uncomfortable as I see the potential this boy has for violence, but what do I do as a casual acquaintance other than....stay away??

BBM

Again, not wanting to derail the thread to other cases as we struggle to understand how AJG became who he was, but this quote from Jeffrey Dahmer's father ties in so well with your comment that parents "rely on 'hope for the future.'" In most cases, the system breaks down and hope is all they have. I doubt AJG's mother saw or understood signs or knew what to do if she did have concerns. JMO

The late killer's father authored a book in which he wrote how many parents miss warning signs, or are too quick to dismiss them. "In the eyes of parents I think children always seem just a blink away from redemption. No matter to what depths we watch them sink, we believe they need only grasp the lifeline and we can pull them safely to shore."

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/07/20/parents-killers-colorado-massacre-james-holmes

 

[human]

I don't want these articles to derail the thread to a discussion of the cases mentioned. PLEASE! But I think they provide balanced information from experts about the parents' role (blame) in creating a child who kills. There are other influences (societal and physical) that may play as much or more of a role in the results as parents. We don't yet have the whole story about AJG. Based on these articles, it seems to me that there may be a lot more at play than a chaotic childhood or poor parenting. A parent not seeing signs of problems does not necessarily mean they are a bad parent. JMO





http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news...-25/experts-killers-families-mourn/56488544/1

A Scientific study about the brain and killers:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/04/980410101830.htm

Jeffrey Dahmer DID NOT come from a good home. It was incredibly dysfunctional. I question the results of that scientific study of children from good homes when it reports Dahmer as a good home. Wow

 

[Lilibet]

Jeffrey Dahmer DID NOT come from a good home. It was incredibly dysfunctional. I question the results of that scientific study of children from good homes when it corptes Dahmer as a good home. Wow

I don't know anything about Jeffrey Dahmer's home, so I will defer to you on that. I'm trying not to derail this thread.

ETA: I do think the other article I quoted had value, however.

 

[cvaldez1975]

because of that case my sons never went to the bathroom alone or had to use the women's w me until they were big.

Maddy's murder is one of the most depraved I've ever heard of.
One other that stands out to me is the case where a man followed a little 7(?) year old boy into a public restroom at a San Diego(?) beach park where the child's family was having a reunion. A aunt went into the restroom moments later to find her nephew dying of a slit throat. I think the predator was found shortly afterwards. I watch the police interrogation and it was chilling. As the murderer recounted/relived the killing his whole demeanor became that of a predatory stalker in the moment. His breathing, facial expressions and voice changed as he relived the thrill of the hunt and the kill. He WAS in the moment again and he was a savage. Don't remember names or dates now.
Neither Maddy or he had a chance.

 

[human]

I don't know anything about Jeffrey Dahmer's home, so I will defer to you on that. I'm trying not to derail this thread.

It is on the net to read.

The problem is with these crimes, we need to address the issues so we can provide solutions instead of cry everytime we read a new horrifc case and then move onto the next one.

I feel like it is a faucet of never ending horror. Do we just wring our hands and gnash out teeth and say nothing can be done ? It is a mystery? Kind of like when people thought flies came from spontaneous generation?

There is all kinds of information out there. If only we would apply it. But people get all uptight because they feel they are being attacked. No one is a perfect parent.

Everyone could have been better.

 

[Lilibet]

It is a disservice to say we don't know what causes issues with children. We know plenty.

Here is an article from Harvard. Somewhat long but easy to read. It is about how severe stress changes the brain of children.

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download_file/-/view/469/

Thank you. This is a very interesting article about how stress can and does affect children. I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that we don't know what causes issues with children. We just don't know all of the specific causes in the case of AJG. What I took away from the article is that the way various stressors affect specific children is unpredictable. There are variables within a child that play a role. While we can see some of the stressors that AJG was subjected to, there is no way, at this point, that we can draw a straight line of simple cause and effect from particular stressors to his subsequent actions, with the information we have right now. There are quite likely a number of factors that created the AJG who lured, raped and murdered. JMO

 

[human]

Thank you. This is a very interesting article about how stress can and does affect children. I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that we don't know what causes issues with children. We just don't know all of the specific causes in the case of AJG. What I took away from the article is that the way various stressors affect specific children is unpredictable. There are variables within a child that play a role. While we can see some of the stressors that AJG was subjected to, there is no way, at this point, that we can draw a straight line of simple cause and effect from particular stressors to his subsequent actions, with the information we have right now. There are quite likely a number of factors that created the AJG who lured, raped and murdered. JMO

Since we probably cannot put reams and reams of studies out there, I chose this one because of stress. It is something schools are working on to address because of the big impacts it has.

There are so many other things that fit into AJG from the short info we have. We don't know much. Who knows who he came into contact with while a young child.

With someone so perverse, there had to be a lot going on. I don't think it is one thing.

 

[Lilibet]

It is on the net to read.

The problem is with these crimes, we need to address the issues so we can provide solutions instead of cry everytime we read a new horrifc case and then move onto the next one.

I feel like it is a faucet of never ending horror. Do we just wring our hands and gnash out teeth and say nothing can be done ? It is a mystery? Kind of like when people thought flies came from spontaneous generation?

There is all kinds of information out there. If only we would apply it. But people get all uptight because they feel they are being attacked. No one is a perfect parent.

Everyone could have been better.

Yes, I do realize that I could read all about Dahmer's family on the net. I chose to reply to your post, accept your correction and defer to your prior knowledge. I have no need to discuss Jeffrey Dahmer. I simply posted what I thought was a helpful article. Everyone here is free to take it or leave it. The other article I posted did not mention Dahmer and made points that I think are valuable.

I agree that we need to address these issues and look for solutions, and that there are no perfect parents. The cause of these murders is a huge, complex issue. I also strongly believe that laying AJG's crimes solely at the feet of his mother/family is an oversimplification that does nothing to address this serious problem. I think it's fair to look at the home life of these killers in scientific studies, rather than pointing uninformed fingers on social media, as I have seen happening. At this point, AJG's mother is a distraught, grieving mother who was comforted by the mother of her son's victim. Blaming her at this point does nothing to solve the larger issues. JMO

 

[nikb]

Does anyone else feel as though we are gradually seeing more socially inept or awkward young people acting out in really violent or frightening ways these days? In combination with generally not fitting in with peers, it seems to me as though perceived rejection by girls is a huge factor as well, in addition to some mental health issues no doubt - and that this is enough to tip some of these young folks over the edge and into really dark places (thinking about not only Jessica Ridgeway's killer, but also that student who ran amok in Santa Barbara last year)
Before his name was revealed I saw AJG's pics on the art group pages and had a feeling he was a misfit - he just seemed too old and big to be spending his vacations in art groups with younger kids. I wonder if he was there because he was restricted from hanging out with his own peers by his parents, or because he wasn't connecting with peers himself.
I'm thinking that this sort of isolation, and too much time immersed in video games and god knows what online, gives these kids a pretty warped sense of what to expect from relationships, and sex - especially at a time when both seem so important. These kids involved in mass shootings and awful vengeful, cold blooded murders - does it seem like it's becoming more prevalent or are we just privy to more and more details about them today?

All a bit random, sorry - I'm a mum of 2 teenage boys who thankfully seem fairly self assured, social and sporty. But this kind of thing makes me look at them and wonder if they are really doing ok?

BBM - seeing more, yes. Is it happening more? I'm really not too sure. As an adult I've told my parents about stuff that happened when I was a kid that they had no clue about. Now, some of this stuff gets all over the news, social media, etc. and I think we're a lot more aware of it. JMO and all. [ETA: nothing I did, but school bus bullying and such that I knew was wrong but didn't know what to do about it]

Also a bit random on my part... I have been hesitant to post this but feel like I should. Santa Cruz is frankly just an odd place. I've known a number of people who live there and it's really, really different. I strongly considered going to the University of California there but opted not to. They don't give "grades," you don't have a "GPA" - you have a written essay evaluation. (I don't know if this is still true) I remember meeting a guy there who was so excited that a bot-fly had "chosen" (aka bitten) him to incubate the baby flies. It's absolutely gorgeous, and the people are great, but it's a whole different mindset than what people are presenting as "normal." I am not expressing myself very well, but what I'm trying to say is it's kind of the perfect place for misfits, socially inept, awkward people (and my apologies again to anyone from there, it's just based on my experiences). If he was still so violent in THAT environment where it's kind of "everyone love and be loved" I think it was going to happen eventually. I'm just so heartbroken Madyson paid for it.

 

[AmyPond]

I posted upthread (or on the previous thread) about a neighbor boy who hurt a family member to see what the reaction would be. He is a smart boy from a well-respected family, but clearly troubled. The mom has made efforts to help the child, but what exactly is the protocol to follow?

There isn't much you CAN do with a troubled child who hasn't yet committed a crime but who might be capable of it. Juvenile detention is not a healing place where most parents would want to put their child, and it's not the place for "potential" violent offenders anyway. The boy I know had a terrible time in school because he was put in classes for troubled youth, but they were remedial classes when this boy was advanced academically. There was no place for him.

It's very easy to blame the parents, but they are lost in many cases and rely on "hope for the future." In the case of my neighbor, I myself even feel uncomfortable as I see the potential this boy has for violence, but what do I do as a casual acquaintance other than....stay away??

There may only be so much one can do for a child like that. But there is something. You can find a counselor or therapist. An actual licensed one who deals with children. Doing that certainly is better than doing nothing. When I read about Austin Sigg yesterday...it looks like his mother knew he looked at child and got him help with "faith based counseling" or some such nonsense. In my opinion, she should have sent him to a real therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist. And she should have restricted access to the internet. Again, that is better than doing nothing.

As far as AJG, who knows what will pop up about his past. Maybe there were no red flags. It's highly possible.

 

[cvaldez1975]

who is this?

Together again for eternity.

View attachment 79345

 

[Peppery]

who is this?

Whitney Houston and Bobbi Kristina Brown. Must have been posted in the wrong thread.


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