GUILTY CA - Madyson Middleton, 8, Santa Cruz, 26 July 2015 - #3 *Arrest*

[human]

Huh? What they endured is not in the same league? I am speechless. We have no idea what his younger years were like that would make him commit the most heinous of crimes.

That is correct. We do not know what happened with him. Trust destroyed is much different than what a stranger does to someone. There has been no bond that has been perverted.

It is not ethical to do studies in children using different depravations. Not sure if this would be ethical today, but here is the famous Harlow's monkeys study.

http://muskingum.edu/~psych/psycweb/history/harlow.htm

 

[human]

Parenting shapes a brain

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...nings-reveal-how-parents-shape-a-childs-brain

 

[bluesneakers]

That is correct. We do not know what happened with him. Trust destroyed is much different than what a stranger does to someone. There has been no bond that has been perverted.

It is not ethical to do studies in children using different depravations. Not sure if this would be ethical today, but here is the famous Harlow's monkeys study.

http://muskingum.edu/~psych/psycweb/history/harlow.htm

I think I understand what you're saying the difference is - stable, loving home life + tragic incident is not the same as unstable, abusive home life. That makes sense to me. How well Jaycee Duggard dealt with and recovered from her traumatic situation was partly a result of how her life had been BEFORE the incident. If someone from an unstable, abusive home went through the same experience the results could be very different.

This also means a case like hers - a young person experiences so much trauma in an isolated way - is not at all the same as a child living with trauma every day. A stranger mistreating you over a specific period of time is not the same as a loved one mistreating you for years.

Is that sort of what you mean?

 

[Lilibet]

@Lilibet,
It was the main focus for a while, true, but not simply targeting AJG's case. That was the catalyst for the discussion, but the discussion, to me, was more philosophical. I have no idea what went on in that family beyond what has been in the papers and that was not horrific at all.
Again speaking in generalities, people tend to have the "whatever happens in Las Vegas, stays in Las Vegas" attitude about much in their own family life. They let their proverbial hair down at home. I don't think anyone really "knows" what goes on in most homes; they know the appearance. Also, I mentioned earlier I personally wasn't referring just to immediate family but also to extended relatives/neighbors/friends that orbit around them.
I've worked with or raised children most of my adult life. I live in a rural area with one elem school, one middle school and one high-school. I have seen and heard enough in the classroom and within the small community to realize most problems with the children are rooted in the home life.
I appreciate and have learned alot from everyone's input here. It seems we all care very much.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful input. I did feel that AJG's Mom was being targeted initially, but that was MOO. Yes, we do all care very much, even if we come from different life experiences that color our perspective.

I certainly do agree that much stays hidden within families and starts there. Our experience is similar to yours. We lived and my husband taught in a rural area like yours in northern CA for 15 years. He taught in a small town elementary school here in Oregon for almost another 15 years. When communities are small, you have a pretty good idea in general about families. So he would absolutely agree with you, as I would, that most problems with the children are rooted in the home life, and that you only see the tip of the iceberg.

Yet, what we have seen AJG do is so far beyond what the students he knew ever did in their teens, even those from the most troubled homes. I doubt many teachers with long careers can say they have ever known a student to go that far that young. So we will continue to wonder how AJG got to this point, hope for solid answers...and look for ways to intervene with other kids if possible. JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

But none applied to them. Unless, one thinks the jury got it wrong....

Did either brother ever say there wasn't abuse?

 

[human]

This article is looooong and technical, but it talks about the effects of abuse in the brain and how caring by warm caregivers can change the brain structure..

http://www.drru-research.org/data/resources/110/child-abuse-and-psychopathology-2012.pdf

 

[human]

Thanks so much for your thoughtful input. I did feel that AJG's Mom was being targeted initially, but that was MOO. Yes, we do all care very much, even if we come from different life experiences that color our perspective.

I certainly do agree that much stays hidden within families and starts there. Our experience is similar to yours. We lived and my husband taught in a rural area like yours in northern CA for 15 years. He taught in a small town elementary school here in Oregon for almost another 15 years. When communities are small, you have a pretty good idea in general about families. So he would absolutely agree with you, as I would, that most problems with the children are rooted in the home life, and that you only see the tip of the iceberg.

Yet, what we have seen AJG do is so far beyond what the students he knew ever did in their teens, even those from the most troubled homes. I doubt many teachers with long careers can say they have ever known a student to go that far that young. So we will continue to wonder how AJG got to this point, hope for solid answers...and look for ways to intervene with other kids if possible. JMO

Thank goodness have never seen anything like him. I wonder if there are any things that are the same between him, Sigg and Gaeta?

It seems like he and Gaeta would be more the same as they both had the trust of the child.

I sure wish there was someone that could delve into these aberrant situations to see why these monsters develop.

The guy who killed Somer Thompson came from rhe most absurd of families. His mother married a guy who was going to marry tge killers 8 year old sister. Annis (I forget the mother's last name).

 

[nikb]

Are the Menendez brothers somehow related to this case?

 

[katydid23]

Are the Menendez brothers somehow related to this case?

Nope.

 

[bluesneakers]

Are the Menendez brothers somehow related to this case?

I saw them mentioned and asked a question but I haven't read far enough back to know why they were being discussed.

 

[Steleheart]

Are the Menendez brothers somehow related to this case?

No. But once again the thread has become derailed away from the facts of the case into philosophy, parenting, politics and etc.

This perp had a turbulent life and I doubt very much if he even knew the Mendez Brothers or who they are.

I so wish we could stick to Madyson and Gonzalez.

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_28566114/teens-turbulent-family-life-and-death-santa-cruz

 

[LinasK]

Jaycee Dugard... if we are talking about a horrific childhood.... The three girls who were held captive for years by a sadistic monster appear to have picked their lives up and are living in the right direction. Then there is the Morman girl (whose name slipped my mind) who was kidnapped from her own bedroom and held for some time by a deranged couple.

I cannot buy the "abused childhood" defense any more than Dan White's "Twinkie defense" for murdering Mayor George Moscone and Harvey Milk back in the late 1970s in SF.

The kid is a bad seed -- way beyond redemption (unless he gets a brain transplant).

Elizabeth Smart is who you are thinking of.

 

[Lilibet]

No. But once again the thread has become derailed away from the facts of the case into philosophy, parenting, politics and etc.

This perp had a turbulent life and I doubt very much if he even knew the Mendez Brothers or who they are.

I so wish we could stick to Madyson and Gonzalez.

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_28566114/teens-turbulent-family-life-and-death-santa-cruz

I'm chuckling a little because this particular article is pretty much the source of the derailment (except for the Melendez bros). We've also covered the graciousness of Maddy's Mom toward AJG's. We howled at the blue moon. I'm not sure when we'll have new information to chew on. Please feel free to post something to get us back on track and let's see how long we can stay there this time. I'm all for it.

 

[Amster]

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Mothers-of-Santa-Cruz-suspect-victim-share-their-6420581.php

Her daughter was sacrificed?? Sacrificed?? What does that mean??

 

[bluesneakers]

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Mothers-of-Santa-Cruz-suspect-victim-share-their-6420581.php

Her daughter was sacrificed?? Sacrificed?? What does that mean??

I think you have to read the whole thing to understand what she means:

If there is enough money, Jordan said she would like to donate to help increase understanding and remove the stigmas surrounding mental health and childhood sexual abuse.

She has already looked into local and national charities, and if enough money comes in, she might even start her own.
Jordan said she is even considering creating a pool of money in Gonzalez’s name to help youths who might have mental health problems seek treatment.

“My daughter was sacrificed, but she didn’t die in vain,” she said. “So much good is coming from her death.”

 

[Amster]

No. But once again the thread has become derailed away from the facts of the case into philosophy, parenting, politics and etc.

This perp had a turbulent life and I doubt very much if he even knew the Mendez Brothers or who they are.

I so wish we could stick to Madyson and Gonzalez.

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_28566114/teens-turbulent-family-life-and-death-santa-cruz

OMG....unspeakable horror was done to this tiny girl! His attack on her lasted for over an hour.....

 

[Amster]

I think you have to read the whole thing to understand what she means:

I did read the whole thing....sacrificed for what "good"? I'll just stop....my mind can't comprehend all the good that this little girls murder has brought. :facepalm:

 

[SophieRose]

No. But once again the thread has become derailed away from the facts of the case into philosophy, parenting, politics and etc.

This perp had a turbulent life and I doubt very much if he even knew the Mendez Brothers or who they are.

I so wish we could stick to Madyson and Gonzalez.

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_28566114/teens-turbulent-family-life-and-death-santa-cruz

One mother, in the comments section, posts that her son knew AJG and AJ was in SCHS band and played piano in the SCHS jazz band. She said that this was a close group, and AJ was a part of it, and these teens are having a difficult time with what AJ did. They are asking themselves so many questions, including how to know if a depressed friend could be a killer.

 

[Lilibet]

I lost track of time. It was just a week ago tonight that Maddie was found. That was a tough time on this thread. We so hoped for a different outcome. Hugs to one and all.

:grouphug:

 

[katydid23]

I am not sure that discussing 'parenting' is really derailing the thread. Surely when a 15 yr old is being tried as an adult, for a horribly gruesome murder, the question of parenting and current 'home life' will be an important issue. JMO

I think it is very important to try and understand how we can identify, and/or recognize when a depressed or 'awkward' teen has actually moved into the perp danger zone. So far I have not seen any of those predictive red flags with this killer.

There have been a couple of recent cases of teens killing young kids and we heard stories of them making attempts to be alone with other kids, which failed. For example. the sweet little 12 yr old girl that went out at midnight to help a neighbor boy to look for his lost dog. He took her to an abandoned home and killed her. He was so blatant and brazen. But AG was quieter and sneakier. So frightening the way he has stayed under the radar. JMO