GUILTY CA - Massive fire at Oakland warehouse party, 36 dead, 2 Dec 2016 #3

[CARIIS]

BBM

Again, in a perfect world, yes they'd kick everyone out. But kicking people out is far from easy, even when they are clearly breaking the law. It's not like two or three dozen police can just show up and kick out the artists. Maybe the party goers, but not DIA and his "renters." There are processes that have to be followed and it takes ages. Can you imagine the protests DIA and company would have organized in the art community if the police showed up to evict them?! Or even if the landlord evicted them. It all sounds so easy. I wish it was.

I can grasp the difficulty with eviction. I can grasp the building address not being in some computer. I can grasp all the anger all of us are feeling.

I can grasp that LE does not know building codes.

I lose some of my grasp if it is true the CPS was in their recently. That translates that they did not remove the children then. They have the power and obligation to do that. That is their job.

But where I totally lose my grasp, is all this cra% that NOONE knew there people living there, that there were concerts there.

At some point some dots should have been accidently connected, solely about all the backtracking where no one from anywhere at any time ever knew that the place was filled with more than boxes- that is absurd IMO.

Police patrol. OWN it. Yes there were people in their but we do not know if there permits.

Fire dept is half a block away. They could probably hear the music. OWN IT. Its not your job to be enforcing leases.

Owner, you had to know something, why was this box warehouse needing so much electricity? OWN IT.

Everyone is gonna have a bunch of stuff going on regarding this tragedy for the next three years

whole bunch of em to state that no human beings were in their for years is insulting, and it certainly makes me not believe anything else they all are gonna come up with as money starts being threatened.

Boxes don't need lights. GIve me a break. Boxes don't play music at 2 in the morning. Boxes do not use a lot of water. Boxes don't need art or a dozen pianos.Boxes dont drive and take up parking spaces.

Boxes dont produce garbage. Boxes do not make a web page announcing they are having a dance. I have never seen boxes carrying propane tanks inside.

I have never seen boxes crossing the street to the Wendy's and ordering a to go lunch or whatever.

Human beings make mistakes - but this endless and growing proclamation that no-one, in any role, had no clue that human beings were in the space transcends obsurdity, and is nothing other than a flat out lie. Peroid.

Ludicrous is where I am ending at!

 

[McMunn]

On the plane back to Oakland. It's strange but I think this tragedy has changed my family in unexpected ways. I don't care about so many things I used to. So much that mattered doesn't seem to for some reaso.
I wish you all could've known Jennifer. She had such a musical voice in a way. Well, a musical laugh. She was a great person to go anywhere with. Excited
and joyful and interested about most everything. And a total morning person which I am not.
She had a lot of style too. Always looked amazing. (Also unlike me). She was like a sexy goth girl. Knew style.
And just so loving. So compassionate. She wasn't just some quiet wallflower though. She could be stubborn and she would stick if she felt she needed something or if something wasn't right. She stood up for herself.
I miss her. I feel regret about certain things. About taking her for granted.
And after I found she and my brother had separated, I wanted to send her an email telling her that I love her no matter what. But I was a bit upset about certain things and didn't do it. I thought I had time.

(((((hugs))))), Gitana.

 

[DexterMorgan]

ey

How would they know unless they were given a permit? Does anyone know ehat goes on in your home?

They had complaints called in numerous times. Commercial dwellings are not residential.

So the building was on the radar.

 

[DexterMorgan]

I can grasp the difficulty with eviction. I can grasp the building address not being in some computer. I can grasp all the anger all of us are feeling.

I can grasp that LE does not know building codes.

I lose some of my grasp if it is true the CPS was in their recently. That translates that they did not remove the children then. They have the power and obligation to do that. That is their job.

But where I totally lose my grasp, is all this cra% that NOONE knew there people living there, that there were concerts there.

At some point some dots should have been accidently connected, solely about all the backtracking where no one from anywhere at any time ever knew that the place was filled with more than boxes- that is absurd IMO.

Police patrol. OWN it. Yes there were people in their but we do not know if there permits.

Fire dept is half a block away. They could probably hear the music. OWN IT. Its not your job to be enforcing leases.

Owner, you had to know something, why was this box warehouse needing so much electricity? OWN IT.

Everyone is gonna have a bunch of stuff going on regarding this tragedy for the next three years

whole bunch of em to state that no human beings were in their for years is insulting, and it certainly makes me not believe anything else they all are gonna come up with as money starts being threatened.

Boxes don't need lights. GIve me a break. Boxes don't play music at 2 in the morning. Boxes do not use a lot of water. Boxes don't need art or a dozen pianos.Boxes dont drive and take up parking spaces.

Boxes dont produce garbage. Boxes do not make a web page announcing they are having a dance. I have never seen boxes carrying propane tanks inside.

I have never seen boxes crossing the street to the Wendy's and ordering a to go lunch or whatever.

Human beings make mistakes - but this endless and growing proclamation that no-one, in any role, had no clue that human beings were in the space transcends obsurdity, and is nothing other than a flat out lie. Peroid.

Ludicrous is where I am ending at!

Yesssssss. Totally agree.

This guy could have turned this place into a brothel or casino and all these agencies would still be clueless.

So I agree. The cities blind eye is not reason for them not to be somewhat on the hook here.

 

[CARIIS]

Sometime after 11 p.m., the smell of burning rubber got him out of the studio and halfway down a staircase in the back of the warehouse that led to living spaces.

On a landing of the staircase he ran into a Ghost Ship resident, Bob Mule, who thought there was a fire downstairs but wanted to come back to collect a few art pieces. They briefly investigated a lightbulb they remembered had been going on and off, thinking it might have something to do with the fire, before they parted ways, with Mule going down the stairs and Marin back up the way he came.

This part of his account really bothers me. This means that Bob Mule knew that there was a fire and was coming back to get his art? Maybe I'm misreading things, but it sounds like he didn't make any effort to alert the others upstairs as to how to get out. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

IMO, you're not wrong.

I am sorry, do not know why (!) and have posted such , intuition stuff just hit me about him early on.

First interview I saw with him the "feelings" inside were triggered. By the 20th interview , and the tale propagating faster the fire,
just ...........

And the video interview with that XXXXX, he did not even know how many people died like 10 days later- blew my mind and I quit viewing.

IMO he only got a slight burn on his elbow cause he was running out so fast that the heat barely hit him

He did an interview that night, no soot, clean as could be, his statement was something like I have been here watching flames come out or something like that.

I would lose my sunglasses trying to rescue a bigger dude , no? He had them on in the middle of the night while firemen were all over the place.

His "art" pieces were his laptop! He said that that night ? Laptop is what he stated that night - this art piece thing is new,/

A friend of his is dead and 10 days later he is playing some bowl instrument in that interview??

 

[human]

I think that people could go in and out if that warehouse and have their studios there. They could not be living there. It was studio space as far as anyone knew.

Are individual firefighters going to be sued because they did not realize and they should realize that people were living there? Should people in the city be sued because they should have known people were living there? How?

How would firefighters know there is all of that electricity being used? Why would the electric company question elec usage unless it was not paid or high enough to indicate marijuana growing?

Our elec bills were really high and then we got new appliances. Back then the meter reader commmented on it as it turned out that we did not have to pay elec for a long time. We paid a certain amount each month, No one questioned it from the elec company.

However, even in the foreign country where I live now the elec company watches for high elec usage because of marijuana growing.

Do the building codes allow for artist studios in that area?

 

[Lilibet]

Yesssssss. Totally agree.

This guy could have turned this place into a brothel or casino and all these agencies would still be clueless.

So I agree. The cities blind eye is not reason for them not to be somewhat on the hook here.

Of COURSE the city and the owner are on the hook to a degree, Dex. Even though I've been beating the DIA blame drum hard, I know that balls were dropped. But it so easy to blame the cumbersome government bureaucracy for every tragedy and lose sight of who REALLY made the tragedy happen. That's where I'm coming from...keep the main focus on DIA. I hold him 50-60% responsible at a minimum, with the city and the owner splitting the rest of the blame in percentages reflecting facts. But unfortunately, it's the city and possibly the owner who will end up paying out big money in civil suits (mostly to the attorneys on both sides) while DIA pleads poverty and may weasel out of legal consequences. Not fair, but that's reality. The one consolation is that victims and families will receive compensation, whoever pays.
JMO

 

[Zuri]

On the plane back to Oakland. It's strange but I think this tragedy has changed my family in unexpected ways. I don't care about so many things I used to. So much that mattered doesn't seem to for some reaso.
I wish you all could've known Jennifer. She had such a musical voice in a way. Well, a musical laugh. She was a great person to go anywhere with. Excited
and joyful and interested about most everything. And a total morning person which I am not.
She had a lot of style too. Always looked amazing. (Also unlike me). She was like a sexy goth girl. Knew style.
And just so loving. So compassionate. She wasn't just some quiet wallflower though. She could be stubborn and she would stick if she felt she needed something or if something wasn't right. She stood up for herself.
I miss her. I feel regret about certain things. About taking her for granted.
And after I found she and my brother had separated, I wanted to send her an email telling her that I love her no matter what. But I was a bit upset about certain things and didn't do it. I thought I had time.

Gitana, it is NOT strange or unusual that Jen's tragic death has changed you and how you look at things. My 20 yo brother was killed when I was 25 and came in as a John Doe to the ER where I was working... I couldn't save him.

This was August 12, 1982 and I am now 59. My perspective of the world and life changed forever that night and I have never been the same. You are still in the reeling/shock phase as I call it where it all seems surreal. Stuff just doesn't matter like it used too. The phrase"Life is short" takes on a new meaning and not just some glib phrase you though out.

You didn't have enough time. We never had enough time. I would imagine you have the "If only" or "I wish" or "If I just" thoughts that fly through your head. You may not want to be around people, large malls, anywhere there is just a lot of activity nor feel like talking. Especially now during the holidays where the music is cheerful and people are laughing. Not.

You may find that your journey in life has an asterisk from December 2nd forward. The mere fact that Jen was young and died a horrible death is enough to rock anyone's world, let alone anyone's world who loved her.

It seems very different losing someone young, suddenly without warning under dire circumstances than it is losing someone who is older with a prolonged illness. The loss is the same yet different if that makes sense. The grief and grieving process was different for me too, when I think back to my own dad and brother. Don't expect anything more from yourself than you are prepared to give, and you can change your mind on that too. It is an individual process and uncharted territory.

Sorry for being so long winded here. When I read that Jen was there and you hadn't heard from her, my heart sank, as I knew pretty much what you were going to be in for, and I was so glad that Lina's K was there for you and that you knew we were all praying for you and your family. Those are the things you hold onto in the darkest hours, knowing how much you are loved and cared about.

I wish you peace...xo

 

[Hoosgirl]

On the plane back to Oakland. It's strange but I think this tragedy has changed my family in unexpected ways. I don't care about so many things I used to. So much that mattered doesn't seem to for some reaso.
I wish you all could've known Jennifer. She had such a musical voice in a way. Well, a musical laugh. She was a great person to go anywhere with. Excited
and joyful and interested about most everything. And a total morning person which I am not.
She had a lot of style too. Always looked amazing. (Also unlike me). She was like a sexy goth girl. Knew style.
And just so loving. So compassionate. She wasn't just some quiet wallflower though. She could be stubborn and she would stick if she felt she needed something or if something wasn't right. She stood up for herself.
I miss her. I feel regret about certain things. About taking her for granted.
And after I found she and my brother had separated, I wanted to send her an email telling her that I love her no matter what. But I was a bit upset about certain things and didn't do it. I thought I had time.

Great big hugs to you, gitana1!

 

[Soulsad]

Beautifully stated Zuri and 'ditto' from me❣

Gitana, it is NOT strange or unusual that Jen's tragic death has changed you and how you look at things. My 20 yo brother was killed when I was 25 and came in as a John Doe to the ER where I was working... I couldn't save him.

This was August 12, 1982 and I am now 59. My perspective of the world and life changed forever that night and I have never been the same. You are still in the reeling/shock phase as I call it where it all seems surreal. Stuff just doesn't matter like it used too. The phrase"Life is short" takes on a new meaning and not just some glib phrase you though out.

You didn't have enough time. We never had enough time. I would imagine you have the "If only" or "I wish" or "If I just" thoughts that fly through your head. You may not want to be around people, large malls, anywhere there is just a lot of activity nor feel like talking. Especially now during the holidays where the music is cheerful and people are laughing. Not.

You may find that your journey in life has an asterisk from December 2nd forward. The mere fact that Jen was young and died a horrible death is enough to rock anyone's world, let alone anyone's world who loved her.

It seems very different losing someone young, suddenly without warning under dire circumstances than it is losing someone who is older with a prolonged illness. The loss is the same yet different if that makes sense. The grief and grieving process was different for me too, when I think back to my own dad and brother. Don't expect anything more from yourself than you are prepared to give, and you can change your mind on that too. It is an individual process and uncharted territory.

Sorry for being so long winded here. When I read that Jen was there and you hadn't heard from her, my heart sank, as I knew pretty much what you were going to be in for, and I was so glad that Lina's K was there for you and that you knew we were all praying for you and your family. Those are the things you hold onto in the darkest hours, knowing how much you are loved and cared about.

I wish you peace...xo

 

[Bently]

Thoughts and prayers going out today to Gitana, her brother, the family..and ALL that love Jen.

:blowkiss:

:grouphug:

 

[Lilibet]

Sending more love and hugs, thoughts and prayers to you and yours, Gitana. :heartbeat:

 

[borndem]

Lawyers For Oakland Ghost Ship Co-Op Founder Blame Fire On Gov’t Agencies

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...ip-co-op-founder-blame-fire-on-govt-agencies/

BBM

No comment from me--I don't need a WS vacation.

Well, I've got a comment...

DIA is, of course, placing blame everywhere but upon himself....IMO

Well, then, why did he put hoses and fire extinguishers in places in that warehouse?? Why did he change a few windows and plan to install escape ladders??

Although the warehouse never would have passed a fire safety inspection, Ghost Ship operator Derick Ion Almena had recently refurbished a few windows so they could open and planned to install escape ladders, said Gwen Procknow, Marin’s girlfriend. Almena told Procknow they kept some hoses coiled upstairs and had fire extinguishers around the warehouse.

http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Survivor-who-jumped-from-Ghost-Ship-window-10805005.php

That won't sound too good in a courtroom... IMO

 

[Jax49]

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...fter-Ghost-Ship-Warehouse-Fire-407628465.html

Images blaming an artist’s collective founder for the deaths of 36 lives during oakland’s deadliest blaze in history are cropping up on social media feeds, and fueling a frenzy of anger toward a man many said ignored safety hazards inside the ghost ship warehouse.

the words “derick ion is guilty” and then a tally of 36 hashmarks, one for each person killed inside the warehouse fire on dec. 2, are scrawled on a brick wall in paint in a stark black-and-white image being posted...

 

[human]

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...fter-Ghost-Ship-Warehouse-Fire-407628465.html

Interesting comments on the FB page referenced

 

[Jax49]

Interesting comments on the FB page referenced

Wow. Very intense.

 

[LinasK]

Hugs, human. :heartbeat: I think you make very good points and I agree with all of them. In a perfect world, there would be perfect compliance with laws and/or perfect enforcement by the government. Obviously that's not happening. Hiring more enforcers costs money and raises taxes...NOBODY wants higher taxes, even to educate children.

I don't think the Oakland government agencies are making excuses. I think they are keeping it real. Of course they would have wanted to prevent this fire! They aren't evil. But realistically, for many regrettable and understandable reasons, this building went unnoticed. And had the proper processes been started, it would have become a long, drawn out dispute, during which time this fire could have easily happened anyway.

But people feel better blaming the government that didn't have enough staff to do what was needed to prevent this. No one is the villain here except DIA and MA. They took advantage of the lack of oversight by the owner and the city and built a death trap. There would have been no fire in this warehouse and no deaths without their totally self-centered illegal actions. An empty or properly permitted use of space would not have burned. If the city and owner had intervened, these two would have used every delaying tactic possible had they been inspected and evicted.

It's a horrible tragedy. I hope it will never happen again. But the changes required to prevent another fire create other problems, as we've discussed on this thread. I hope the city finds the balance. And above all, I hope that DIA and MA are held accountable in criminal and civil court.
All JMO, MOO, etc.

I totally agree, lets keep the main blame where it belongs: on Derrick Almena and Chor Ng, after that we can add much lesser blame on city/fire inspectors and renters.

 

[Philigumbo]

It was a misquote of Jen's mom by the Sacbee. Definitely 15 seconds. I got that from the deputy who found her. Straight from his mouth.

My brother was doing better today. But waves and ups and downs. He's been on tranquilizers and other stuff to help him through. He keeps talking to priests. Every day. Feeling a lot of guilt. Ton of regret. Crying a lot about hard times she had in life and times people hurt her. He is having a super hard time remembering the times she was happy. He just keeps lamenting about rough stuff she went through and all the people who hurt her. Like feeling she had a hard time and then died too soon. And he's constantly wondering about the afterlife. Is there one? Is she in heaven? Is she happy? Does she know he's sorry he wasn't a better husband. That he is sorry he wasn't there to protect her. He wonders if she can hear him.

My brother had an intense fear that something was going to happen to Jennifer the whole time they were married. He felt she was never aware enough about danger. That she took risks. I agreed with him. (We are a cautious family). But he never tried to hem her in. He just tried to make her be aware. Asked her to take Krav Maga lessons with him. Stuff like that. Dropped everything to rush to her side when anything bad happened. He felt he had to protect her. After the separation, he told a mutual friend that he was worried about her and the friend said he was being misogynistic: "She can take care of herself. She doesn't need a man to take care of her." But he wasn't like that. He doesn't worry about me that way, for example. There was just something slightly vulnerable about her.

Then she died.

So it's been very rough for him. And torture to watch. We all miss her and can't believe she's gone. She just spent a few weeks at my home this past summer. So darling and curious and interested in the world. Its been the worst. It seems like a crazy nightmare. I found a bunch of photos of her and me on my phone on Satruday when I was looking for something else. Gut punch. And photos I took of her posing outside because she was so gorgeous.

This has been the worst thing I think I've experienced. My dad slowly rotting of cancer was catastrophic. Something about this feels worse. Maybe because time has passed since my dad died? Or because his cancer diagnosis wasn't surprising? I don't know. I just don't remember not being able to sleep because I was lying there shaking super hard, when my dad was dying. But waiting for notification about my sister in law was hell on earth. Even though it was expected. And the cruelty of her death. The life cut so short. I think it's just the horror of the situation, her age, and the craziness of some people surrounding all of this who have made it worse.

Today was the first day I've really read the threads about this tragedy and some of the news reports. Looking at anything in the paper, online or on the tv has been sickening and I've avoided it. The things im seeing have really pissed me off. That video someone took of that sh!!t hole as it really was? I can't explain how violent that makes me feel.

Im sorry I haven't responded yet to all the beautiful PM's everyone has sent me. I've read them. It's been super chaotic. I will as soon as I can. We have the burial in a couple days. Flying back up tomorrow.

((Hugs))

 

[LinasK]

Definitely not easy to "kick" anyone out. I admit I'm not familiar with laws there but in Texas it takes forever even to get squatters off a property much less renters. And permits?? How would enforcers even know there was a business or residence there if no one had applied for license or permits. From everything I've read I think this was a horrible tragedy and innocent people died. But who's to blame? The owner? The renters? The city? The adults who chose to go to this rave? I'm sure I will get a lot of negative feed back but this seems like a horrific tragic accident. Here in Texas they have "barn parties" in actual barns, with bands , hay around, sometimes its damp and I'm sure a fire hazard. But people still choose to go. As far as people living in the spaces illegally.. what does this have to do with the fire? We don't know yet what caused the fire do we? I'm not saying this renter has no liability but murder? I just don't see murder here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BBM. I see Criminal Negligence if not Manslaughter at minimum, although granted I'm not a lawyer. The main blame belongs on Derrick Almena for illegally subletting and renting out the warehouse knowing it was a deathtrap/accident waiting to happen. A couple of little fire extinguishers would be like trying to use a garden hose on a place like that. Secondary blame belongs on the owner Chor Ng for not inspecting her property and installing sprinklers. Thirdly blame city/fire inspectors, then fourth the renters who were living there illegally. And although the specific cause hasn't been pinned down, they are pretty sure it was electrical because of the lights being knocked out and photos of overloaded circuits from DJ's and improper wiring, and they were stealing electricity from the auto shop business next door.

 

[MsMarple]

Wow. Very intense.

And Micah Allison has jumped on to binge post the same nonsensical statement over and over. The woman is a nut case.