airportwoman
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2019
- Messages
- 3,011
- Reaction score
- 19,503
Does anyone know if this program will show up on Netflix?
CA - Steven Stayner & Timothy White abducted by Kenneth Parnell
- Thread starter Beyond Belief
- Start date
SaguaroSpirit
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2016
- Messages
- 1,943
- Reaction score
- 19,381
it's on Hulu so I highly doubt it.
formerlyme
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2021
- Messages
- 1,418
- Reaction score
- 10,893
I thought the program was well done. I just hope that the "bad" stepdad is out of all their lives. I think they didn't mention Murphy much because Steven himself said he felt that Murphy was also a victim of Parnell's manipulation. I thought it was interesting having the actors read the words of the person they had portrayed in the movie. It was just overall well done. Sad story all around, both Steven and Timmy had very short lives.
Noirdame79
Amateur Sleuth
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2013
- Messages
- 776
- Reaction score
- 1,972
The Stayner parents were not the long-suffering victims the media portrayed them as. The family had a long-standing history of sexual abuse, domestic violence, and mental illness. This was revealed at Cary's trial. In 1986, his father, Delbert Stayner, was ordered into state-mandated therapy for molesting his daughters (this was introduced at trial via court records); the mother, Kay Stayner, admitted that she allowed her father, who had sexually abused her as a child, to live with the family at one point. However, she tried to convey the idea that she was able to keep an eye on him 24/7. Cary was molested by his paternal uncle, Jesse "Jerry" Stayner (it was an open secret) who also showed him CP. At one point, Jerry Stayner was convicted of sexual abuse of a minor but only served minimal jail time. On December 26, 1990, Jerry was found shot to death in his home in Merced. Cary, who was living with his uncle at the time, had a solid alibi - he was at work, and the case was never solved. It was briefly re-opened following Stayner's 1999 arrest, but investigators were unable to find any evidence linking him to his uncle's murder. Both parents admitted to neglecting Cary from birth and ignored his mental health issues (some of which were the result of his brain being damaged in the womb). They denied their children mental health care because they didn't want the family secrets to be revealed.
If you watched the third episode of the Hulu docuseries, you might have noticed that the mitigation expert for Cary's defense mentioned the history of abuse, mental illness, etc, but it was not expanded upon. The director, Jessica Dimmock, stated in an interview that she made a point of not addressing it or asking the interviewed family members about it. I noticed that Steven's daughter has been denying the abuse but she wouldn't be in a position to know. After her father died, her mother kept her and her brother away from the Stayner parents, and I think that was a smart move (granted, the stepfather sounds horrible). Steven's kids may have spent time with them as adults, however.
This was the real reason why those parents refused to get any professional help for their children, and Cary, by all accounts, needed it from an early age. It also explains why Steven so easily accepted it when Parnell told him that his parents didn't want him anymore - because his home life was extremely dysfunctional and there is a strong possibly that he was molested before he was abducted or at least witnessed the molestation of his sibings.
While there's no doubt that Cary Stayner killed Joie Armstrong, despite the narrative that has been portrayed to the public, there are lingering doubts to this day about the degree of his involvement in the murders of Carole Sund, Juli Sund, and Silivna Pelosso. There's no physical evidence linking him to those murders for one thing (while there was a lot of physical evidence that connected him to the Armstrong murder), and his confession was full of discrepancies and holes. The men who were initially arrested were the actual killers; Stayner was a low-level member of their group. They used him because he had access to all the rooms at the Cedar Lodge. Private investigators, who had regular contact with Carole and Juli's family, discovered that the Sund-Pelosso murders were a botched robbery. Stayner was involved in the theft, as were other lodge employees, and that was how he knew certain details. Even the victims' family members did not believe that he was the only person involved, and said as much at the time to The Modesto Bee, a local newspaper. People who knew Stayner stated that he was not mentally capable of overpowering three people at once, much less killing them and not leaving any traces behind. The Armstrong murder, in which there was a single victim, was so exceedingly sloppy that he was suspected almost immediately, and there was a tremendous amount of evidence linking him to it. He also made no real effort to hide what he had done. Contrast this with the Cedar Lodge murders, in which there was very little physical evidence left behind, and none that matched Stayner.
It's also worth noting that even Dr. Park Dietz, a psychiatrist who evaluated Stayner for the prosecution at his trial, said that Cary Stayner was the most empathetic serial killer he had ever examined. (All of the psychiatrists who examined him concluded that he is not a psychopath). He had remorse, and he had empathy for the victims. He also lacks the arrogance of a serial killer - he doesn't have that and he never did. All the prosecutors had was his confession, and nothing else. Unfortunately, Stayner did not receive a fair trial, due to the overwhelming bias against him. The court of public opinion had already made up its mind, finding an impartial jury was impossible, and the judge was biased in favor of the prosecution. Stayner's attorneys, Marcia Morrissey and Michael Burt wanted the trial moved to Seattle to ensure an impartial jury, but their motion was denied. They went for an insanity defense, because, even though Cary Stayner is mentally ill, they felt it was the only way to potentially save his life. They knew that there was far too much prejudice against their client. The problem with making a plea like that is that it can't be withdrawn, and the judge used that as a reason to deny the defense's motions to introduce reasonable doubt, including the confession of one the real killers, who did not name Stayner as being involved in the crime in his confession. He later retracted it, and even though physical evidence was found linking him to the murders, he was released, as were the other suspects after Stayner was charged. When this guy was subpoenaed by the defense to testify, he pled the Fifth. The FBI bungled the case and didn't want to admit it; the Mariposa County Sheriff's Office is corrupt and had ties to those creeps via the local drug trade (among other things) so the real killers were protected and Cary Stayner was the fall guy. For whatever reason(s) he confessed, it stuck because LE chose to cover up their incompetency.
Cary Stayner is not a serial killer, he is not a rapist, and he is not a psychopath. He's a murderer, a deeply disturbed individual, but he's not the serial killer type at all.
The surviving private investigator, Stephen Sanzeri (he was briefly interviewed for the third episode of the Hulu docuseries), has written a book on the case, Ultimate Prey, which you can purchase from Amazon, and he has done interviews on YouTube. While I don't necessarily agree with him regarding his opinion of Cary Stayner (his refusal to humanize him irks me) he conducted as thorough an investigation on this case as possible, but law enforcement ignored his findings and even interfered in his investigation.
JMO
If you watched the third episode of the Hulu docuseries, you might have noticed that the mitigation expert for Cary's defense mentioned the history of abuse, mental illness, etc, but it was not expanded upon. The director, Jessica Dimmock, stated in an interview that she made a point of not addressing it or asking the interviewed family members about it. I noticed that Steven's daughter has been denying the abuse but she wouldn't be in a position to know. After her father died, her mother kept her and her brother away from the Stayner parents, and I think that was a smart move (granted, the stepfather sounds horrible). Steven's kids may have spent time with them as adults, however.
This was the real reason why those parents refused to get any professional help for their children, and Cary, by all accounts, needed it from an early age. It also explains why Steven so easily accepted it when Parnell told him that his parents didn't want him anymore - because his home life was extremely dysfunctional and there is a strong possibly that he was molested before he was abducted or at least witnessed the molestation of his sibings.
While there's no doubt that Cary Stayner killed Joie Armstrong, despite the narrative that has been portrayed to the public, there are lingering doubts to this day about the degree of his involvement in the murders of Carole Sund, Juli Sund, and Silivna Pelosso. There's no physical evidence linking him to those murders for one thing (while there was a lot of physical evidence that connected him to the Armstrong murder), and his confession was full of discrepancies and holes. The men who were initially arrested were the actual killers; Stayner was a low-level member of their group. They used him because he had access to all the rooms at the Cedar Lodge. Private investigators, who had regular contact with Carole and Juli's family, discovered that the Sund-Pelosso murders were a botched robbery. Stayner was involved in the theft, as were other lodge employees, and that was how he knew certain details. Even the victims' family members did not believe that he was the only person involved, and said as much at the time to The Modesto Bee, a local newspaper. People who knew Stayner stated that he was not mentally capable of overpowering three people at once, much less killing them and not leaving any traces behind. The Armstrong murder, in which there was a single victim, was so exceedingly sloppy that he was suspected almost immediately, and there was a tremendous amount of evidence linking him to it. He also made no real effort to hide what he had done. Contrast this with the Cedar Lodge murders, in which there was very little physical evidence left behind, and none that matched Stayner.
It's also worth noting that even Dr. Park Dietz, a psychiatrist who evaluated Stayner for the prosecution at his trial, said that Cary Stayner was the most empathetic serial killer he had ever examined. (All of the psychiatrists who examined him concluded that he is not a psychopath). He had remorse, and he had empathy for the victims. He also lacks the arrogance of a serial killer - he doesn't have that and he never did. All the prosecutors had was his confession, and nothing else. Unfortunately, Stayner did not receive a fair trial, due to the overwhelming bias against him. The court of public opinion had already made up its mind, finding an impartial jury was impossible, and the judge was biased in favor of the prosecution. Stayner's attorneys, Marcia Morrissey and Michael Burt wanted the trial moved to Seattle to ensure an impartial jury, but their motion was denied. They went for an insanity defense, because, even though Cary Stayner is mentally ill, they felt it was the only way to potentially save his life. They knew that there was far too much prejudice against their client. The problem with making a plea like that is that it can't be withdrawn, and the judge used that as a reason to deny the defense's motions to introduce reasonable doubt, including the confession of one the real killers, who did not name Stayner as being involved in the crime in his confession. He later retracted it, and even though physical evidence was found linking him to the murders, he was released, as were the other suspects after Stayner was charged. When this guy was subpoenaed by the defense to testify, he pled the Fifth. The FBI bungled the case and didn't want to admit it; the Mariposa County Sheriff's Office is corrupt and had ties to those creeps via the local drug trade (among other things) so the real killers were protected and Cary Stayner was the fall guy. For whatever reason(s) he confessed, it stuck because LE chose to cover up their incompetency.
Cary Stayner is not a serial killer, he is not a rapist, and he is not a psychopath. He's a murderer, a deeply disturbed individual, but he's not the serial killer type at all.
The surviving private investigator, Stephen Sanzeri (he was briefly interviewed for the third episode of the Hulu docuseries), has written a book on the case, Ultimate Prey, which you can purchase from Amazon, and he has done interviews on YouTube. While I don't necessarily agree with him regarding his opinion of Cary Stayner (his refusal to humanize him irks me) he conducted as thorough an investigation on this case as possible, but law enforcement ignored his findings and even interfered in his investigation.
JMO
Last edited:
Noirdame79
Amateur Sleuth
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2013
- Messages
- 776
- Reaction score
- 1,972
Excerpt from The San Francisco Chronicle, May 21, 2002
Defense To Fight For Stayner's Life/Lawyers Cite Report Detailing A Life Of Being Abused
Psychiatrist George Woods, who evaluated Cary Stayner at the Fresno County Jail over the course of a year, talked to relatives and reviewed court records, said in his report that Stayner's family had a history of dysfunction dating back three generations.
Stayner was molested by an uncle, and his sisters were abused by their father, according to Woods' evaluation. In 1986, according to the report, Stayner's father, Delbert Stayner, was accused of sexually molesting his daughters and was ordered into therapy by state authorities.
A Stayner relative told Woods that she believed that sexual abuse of children "has been going on for so long, it's like a sickness in the family."
Efforts to reach Delbert Stayner on Monday were unsuccessful.
When Cary Stayner was 11, his younger brother, Steven, was kidnapped.
Shortly afterward, Cary Stayner was abused by an uncle who had been convicted of child molestation, according to the report.
"Although (the uncle's) sexual proclivities were well known to Cary's older male cousins, he was nevertheless allowed to take boys for overnights in his tiny apartment," Woods wrote.
One evening, the uncle showed Stayner and his cousin nude pictures of young girls. Then Stayner and his uncle went to sleep in the same bed. Stayner awoke to find the uncle removing his underwear and attempting to molest him, the evaluation says.
"By the time Cary Stayner was in high school, he had a reputation as a quiet loner, though a talented cartoonist," the doctor wrote. "He was teased because he wore a hat all the time to cover the bald patches left by his compulsive hair pulling. His sexual relations with girls were almost nonexistent, and were often frustrated by his inability to achieve and sustain an erection."
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/defense-to-fight-for-stayner-s-life-lawyers-2820211.php
Excerpt from The San Francisco Chronicle, October 4, 2002
Stayner's Parents Fear Losing Another Son
When Cary Stayner was just 11, his younger brother, Steven, 7, was snatched from a Merced street on his way home from school. His abductor kept and sexually abused Steven for seven years. He finally ran away and turned himself over to a nearby police department. When he returned home, he was a promiscuous teenager with an alcohol problem and later died in a motorcycle crash. His story was turned into a television miniseries.
"We got Steve back, not Stevie," said Kay Stayner, who spent a lot of time telling the jury about the toll her youngest son's disappearance took on the family and how it affected Cary.
The defendant's father, Delbert Stayner, testified that after Steven went missing, he became obsessed with finding his boy and neglected his other four children - especially Cary.
"I didn't socialize with him," he said. "I yelled at him a lot."
It was common for the couple to load the kids in the car and take off in search of a new tip that could lead them to Steven. The trips always ended in a wild goose chase, according to testimony.
What was worse, Kay Stayner said, was that family members never talked about their feelings -- because in the Stayner home emotions were taboo. Only Kay Stayner's father voiced his opinion, she said.
"He said we should be glad that Steven was gone. Now we only had four children to clothe," she told the court.
Kay Stayner said that although her father molested her as a child, she allowed him to live in the Stayner home but kept him away from her daughters.
But according to court testimony, the girls weren't safe. State authorities said Delbert Stayner molested them.
The Stayners admit they weren't always the best parents. But they said they can't imagine losing another son.
"My son is very sick right now," Delbert Stayner told the court while sobbing. "I don't think he should be executed because he's sick."
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Stayner-s-parents-fear-losing-another-son-2789304.php
Defense To Fight For Stayner's Life/Lawyers Cite Report Detailing A Life Of Being Abused
Psychiatrist George Woods, who evaluated Cary Stayner at the Fresno County Jail over the course of a year, talked to relatives and reviewed court records, said in his report that Stayner's family had a history of dysfunction dating back three generations.
Stayner was molested by an uncle, and his sisters were abused by their father, according to Woods' evaluation. In 1986, according to the report, Stayner's father, Delbert Stayner, was accused of sexually molesting his daughters and was ordered into therapy by state authorities.
A Stayner relative told Woods that she believed that sexual abuse of children "has been going on for so long, it's like a sickness in the family."
Efforts to reach Delbert Stayner on Monday were unsuccessful.
When Cary Stayner was 11, his younger brother, Steven, was kidnapped.
Shortly afterward, Cary Stayner was abused by an uncle who had been convicted of child molestation, according to the report.
"Although (the uncle's) sexual proclivities were well known to Cary's older male cousins, he was nevertheless allowed to take boys for overnights in his tiny apartment," Woods wrote.
One evening, the uncle showed Stayner and his cousin nude pictures of young girls. Then Stayner and his uncle went to sleep in the same bed. Stayner awoke to find the uncle removing his underwear and attempting to molest him, the evaluation says.
"By the time Cary Stayner was in high school, he had a reputation as a quiet loner, though a talented cartoonist," the doctor wrote. "He was teased because he wore a hat all the time to cover the bald patches left by his compulsive hair pulling. His sexual relations with girls were almost nonexistent, and were often frustrated by his inability to achieve and sustain an erection."
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/defense-to-fight-for-stayner-s-life-lawyers-2820211.php
Excerpt from The San Francisco Chronicle, October 4, 2002
Stayner's Parents Fear Losing Another Son
When Cary Stayner was just 11, his younger brother, Steven, 7, was snatched from a Merced street on his way home from school. His abductor kept and sexually abused Steven for seven years. He finally ran away and turned himself over to a nearby police department. When he returned home, he was a promiscuous teenager with an alcohol problem and later died in a motorcycle crash. His story was turned into a television miniseries.
"We got Steve back, not Stevie," said Kay Stayner, who spent a lot of time telling the jury about the toll her youngest son's disappearance took on the family and how it affected Cary.
The defendant's father, Delbert Stayner, testified that after Steven went missing, he became obsessed with finding his boy and neglected his other four children - especially Cary.
"I didn't socialize with him," he said. "I yelled at him a lot."
It was common for the couple to load the kids in the car and take off in search of a new tip that could lead them to Steven. The trips always ended in a wild goose chase, according to testimony.
What was worse, Kay Stayner said, was that family members never talked about their feelings -- because in the Stayner home emotions were taboo. Only Kay Stayner's father voiced his opinion, she said.
"He said we should be glad that Steven was gone. Now we only had four children to clothe," she told the court.
Kay Stayner said that although her father molested her as a child, she allowed him to live in the Stayner home but kept him away from her daughters.
But according to court testimony, the girls weren't safe. State authorities said Delbert Stayner molested them.
The Stayners admit they weren't always the best parents. But they said they can't imagine losing another son.
"My son is very sick right now," Delbert Stayner told the court while sobbing. "I don't think he should be executed because he's sick."
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Stayner-s-parents-fear-losing-another-son-2789304.php
Noirdame79
Amateur Sleuth
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2013
- Messages
- 776
- Reaction score
- 1,972
There was a lot left out of the docuseries (see my other posts in this thread). The family secrets came out at Cary Stayner's trial. The reason why no professional help was given to Steven and his siblings, will sadly, become much clearer. There was also a lot of mental illness in the family that Cary inherited, along with issues related to trauma.
Noirdame79
Amateur Sleuth
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2013
- Messages
- 776
- Reaction score
- 1,972
Much of the testimony the defense has tried to introduce, such as the molestation of one of Stayner's sisters by their father, has been barred due to objections by the prosecution.
Sister Tells of Stayner's Troubled Childhood
Courts: Younger sibling says the man who killed three Yosemite tourists isn't the brother she remembers. Judge orders defense to curtail repetitive testimony.
www.latimes.com
Stayner's three sisters testified briefly Thursday about their chaotic
family life, but much of what they tried to say was blocked by the judge who
said it was becoming repetitive.
Appeal from Stayner’s parents:
SAN JOSE -- If Cary Stayner's death could restore the lives he took, ''I say do it,'' his mother said in a tearful appeal to jurors Thursday. ''But executing Cary is not going to bring back those people. They're gone and there's no bringing them back,''
www.pressdemocrat.com
Now we know why these parents refused to get their children professional help, even though Cary especially needed it from an early age.
Last edited:
Noirdame79
Amateur Sleuth
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2013
- Messages
- 776
- Reaction score
- 1,972
A family portrait taken in the 1980s
The children who remained at home fared no better than Steven
It should be noted that the predator maternal grandfather was 200 feet away from the cabin that Steven was first taken to by Kenneth Parnell. Coincidence?
JMO
The children who remained at home fared no better than Steven
It should be noted that the predator maternal grandfather was 200 feet away from the cabin that Steven was first taken to by Kenneth Parnell. Coincidence?
JMO
Online statistics
- Members online
- 114
- Guests online
- 2,092
- Total visitors
- 2,206