Camel Blue cigarette butts found at both crime scenes

[Jgill]

When Amy, Jon Benet's dance classmate was assaulted by an intruder, Amy's mom said he reeked of cigarettes. Camel "blue" cigarette butts were found near the home. In the alley behind the Ramsey home, the same brand cigarette butts were found. Hence, IDI. The Ramsey intruder wore gloves, brought a pre-written ransom note and transcribed it onto Patsy's notepad, and faked a rough draft to make it appear it was freestyled, because it was part of the framing of the Ramseys. You RDI people fell for it.

 

[CloudedTruth]

When Amy, Jon Benet's dance classmate was assaulted by an intruder, Amy's mom said he reeked of cigarettes. Camel "blue" cigarette butts were found near the home. In the alley behind the Ramsey home, the same brand cigarette butts were found. Hence, IDI. The Ramsey intruder wore gloves, brought a pre-written ransom note and transcribed it onto Patsy's notepad, and faked a rough draft to make it appear it was freestyled, because it was part of the framing of the Ramseys. You RDI people fell for it.

Here's some interesting information about this.

The incident with "Amy" occurred approximately 9 months after JB was murdered. Both the mother and "Amy" saw this person, and yet a composite sketch was never done. Why? As the investigation by police went on, the father of "Amy" became very uncomfortable about police interviewing friends and acquaintances of his daughter. According to Det. Linda Arndt's report, Amy's dad did not want the investigation to continue if it was going to reveal a sexual assault aspect. As a result he shut it down and told police to stop investigating. Later, he complained that BPD didn't do anything.

So he hired a PI instead. It was the PI who found the cigarettes butts not the police while they were investigating, and we do not have a timeline of when those were found, but we do know that it was sometime AFTER the police investigation. Weeks? Months? The PI also found that the mother knew the guy, and was consistently letting him in the house while her husband was out of town. There is no credible information that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the cigarette butts were related to the incident. And knowing that the mother knew the guy and was letting him in the house, there was no reason for him to be "stalking". He had free access.

The cigarette butts found near the Ramsey home were not on their property. The alleyway behind the Ramsey home was about 2 blocks in length, so shared by approximately 20 homes all of which had their garages in the back like the Ramseys was. This was also the area where the trash pick-ups occurred. The brand of cigarettes formerly known as Camel lights was a popular brand among smokers. An alley where the trash cans are kept would be a very common place to smoke....the husband whose wife makes him go outside to have a cigarette. My best friend to this day makes her husband smoke outside. He has a spot in their neighborhood where he consistently goes to smoke.

IMO opinion it's a bit of a reach to conclude IDI based on cigarette butts. If this guy was so clever to not leave any other traces of himself behind, one would think he'd know not to be so careless and leave cigarette butts too.

 

[Jgill]

I don't think the Ramsey's wrote the ransom note or killed their daughter. Thank you for providing facts regarding the cigarette butts and the apparent fact that it was not the same brand of cigarettes-I had been informed they were the same brand found behind the Ramsey home. But since they aren't I guess that would make it a stretch. Since seven windows and a door was not locked at the crime scene the stretch becomes less severe. Also a house key was missing from underneath a statue outside, and many other people had house keys.

 

[Jgill]

Joseph James DeAngelo was a cop while breaking into homes undetected, and John Ramsey wasn't the only fat cat around. That could explain where the maglight came from. But no, I don't think a murderous cop breaking in would absentmindedly leave that behind.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I don't think the Ramsey's wrote the ransom note or killed their daughter. Thank you for providing facts regarding the cigarette butts and the apparent fact that it was not the same brand of cigarettes-I had been informed they were the same brand found behind the Ramsey home. But since they aren't I guess that would make it a stretch. Since seven windows and a door was not locked at the crime scene the stretch becomes less severe. Also a house key was missing from underneath a statue outside, and many other people had house keys.

The cigarette butts were the same brand......Camel Blue were formerly called Camel Lights, sorry if that was confusing. I still don't think that's a "smoking gun" though. Police did not find the butts outside of "Amy's" house when they were investigating right after the incident was reported, they were found at a different and later time by the PI her father hired, so could've been left by anyone at anytime and not necessarily related to the incident. It was a very common brand popular with smokers.

Not sure where your other information comes from. I have seen some people repeat the 7 windows / door claim before, police found everything to be locked that morning, which JR also confirmed more than once. I have never heard about a key underneath a statue before, if there was why would JR have to keep breaking in to his own house when he forgot his keys? Do you have a source for that please?

 

[CloudedTruth]

Joseph James DeAngelo was a cop while breaking into homes undetected, and John Ramsey wasn't the only fat cat around. That could explain where the maglight came from. But no, I don't think a murderous cop breaking in would absentmindedly leave that behind.

The Maglite belonged to the Ramseys. JR finally admitted that after both PR and JAR confirmed it.

 

[Jgill]

The windows and the door being unsecured was explained by Vuldar on YouTube, titled Jon Benet Ramsey and another was a John Ramsey interview with Paula Woodward in a YouTube video by Cottonstar titled: Dispelling the Myths. I have to find the vid about the missing house key underneath the statue I will post here once I find it again.

 

[Lebowski]

JR told the police arriving at 6 am that all the doors were locked. officer French checked all the doors and windows and found them all locked.

the idea of a key being left under a doormat or statue etc., seems to be a recent invention. as far as who had keys, the ramseys said early on that it was only a few people and named them all. law enforcement looked at them all, and don't seem to have found any good suspects.

there are still a few narrow possibilities for an intruder getting in and out and leaving all doors locked. someone might have surreptitiously copied a key. could have used lock picks. the possibility that strikes me as least unlikely is an intruder finding a door unlocked and randomly choosing to lock it on the way out. but however the intruder came and went, they apparently did it without leaving prints or signs of forced entry, or tracking in any dirt or debris from the wet ground outside, all of which makes it even less likely.

IMO an intruder getting in and out can't be disproven, it just looks pretty unlikely.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I recall when Barb Fernie caught the Ramseys in a lie, when they tried to claim some pry marks on a door frame must’ve been made by “the intruder”. Barb had noticed them well before the murder and asked PR about them. She was told JR had made them in another of his locked out incidents.

 

[Spacemonkey1975]

Former smoker here Camel lights were available at the time of Jon Benet’s murder, They were not “replaced” by Blues

 

[887sMtreme]

Former smoker here Camel lights were available at the time of Jon Benet’s murder, They were not “replaced” by Blues

A quick hop over to Google tells us Camel Blues came out in the 2000s.

 

[cenazoic]

They were not “replaced” by Blues

Camel Blues came out in the 2000s.

From what I read, Blues are Camel lights under a different name. In regards to when they came out, I wasn’t able to confirm 1990s or 2000s when I did some quick research yesterday, so didn’t post. There’s definitely some uncertainty there, although I don’t believe they’re related for the reasons @CloudedTruth details above.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Former smoker here Camel lights were available at the time of Jon Benet’s murder, They were not “replaced” by Blues

Not a smoker, here. I had read that they just renamed /rebranded Camel Lights as Camel Blue.

“Camel Blue is generally considered the modern iteration of Camel Lights”.

 

[Jgill]

The garden gnome's name was "Pierre"​

​

Neighbors and Keys to The Ramsey Home​

• Thread starterCamper
• Start dateJul 11, 2005

 

[Jgill]

The interview Patsy gave about the missing garden gnome key was from 1998 so it's not a "recent invention" as Lebowski stated.

 

[Lebowski]

ok, not a recent invention. I stand corrected.

the important thing IMO is whether they ever mentioned a key being hidden outside in their earliest statements to the police. I don't believe there's anything about a key under a gnome etc., in officers' reports from 12/26/96. and it would be an odd thing to leave out if you're trying to account for all the ways an intruder had gotten in... unless you forgot, which is possible.

but that brings me to the interviews they finally gave the police 4 months later. does anyone know if those are fully public? and do they ever mention a key hidden outside at that time? ...when they've had 4 months to think about how an intruder could have gotten in and presumably have been trying to figure out.

this is important because the ramseys' stories changed a lot over time. there's a clear pattern, especially with John, where early statements were clear and definitive and made an intruder look unlikely, and then over time -- wouldn't you know it -- stuff gets hazier and the house turns into Swiss cheese.

if there's no mention of keys under a gnome before this interview PR gave 18 months later, long after the ramseys had lawyered up and were working hard to convince everyone there was an intruder, I don't take the claim seriously.

 

[CloudedTruth]

From an earlier post here on Websleuths from Why_Nutt:

Patsy spoke of the outside key in the 1998 interview.

TOM HANEY: There has been talk about hidden keys outside. Did you -- did you regularly leave a key hidden somewhere?

PATSY RAMSEY: I, at one time, used to leave a key under Pierre. Pierre is a little statue guy. This guy right here. You push him back, there was a little key. He sat still on a platform.

TOM HANEY: He is outside the door by the sun room?

PATSY RAMSEY: Right. He is on a little platform, and if you lean him back, there was a key under there. But then, you know, you forgot if you used the key, and we were not very diligent about putting it back.

TRIP DEMUTH: We see Pierre in photo 89.

TOM HANEY: When do you recall the last time the key was under there?

PATSY RAMSEY: Don't know.

TOM HANEY: Do you ever recall pulling out to look under Pierre and not having a key?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

TOM HANEY: Do you recall when that would have been?

PATSY RAMSEY: No. I think actually -- no, let me think. I locked myself out one time and I looked under Pierre for the key and there was no key. And I think I had to go to Betty. Betty couldn't find her key. That is how I know she misplaced her key. I think I called Barbara Fernie from Betty's. I said, where are you, can you come by my house and let me in. I do remember that, but I don't know when that was. I mean, it was certainly before all this, but how far back I don't know.

TOM HANEY: What was your usual method though for coming in?

PATSY RAMSEY: Garage door opener, go in, and then the inside garage door was unlocked. I had never used the house key ever.

TOM HANEY: Did you ever hide a key on the cars?

PATSY RAMSEY: No.

TRIP DEMUTH: How did you lock yourself out? How did that happen?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I don't know. I must have usually -- when that would happen it was because I went out the front door to go lift somebody someplace and be in the car with my opener. I just can't remember. I remember looking, there wasn't a key. Betty didn't have a key, and I had to run to Barbara's house somewhere. Maybe I had been out with Barbara that morning. I don't know. Maybe Barbara would remember.

Look at that interesting sentence. "Betty didn't have a key, and I had to run to Barbara's house somewhere." Barbara lived 3.5 miles away. I doubt Patsy ran that far by foot. Obviously she did not drive, because if she had, she would have had her car key, with attached garage door opener, and would not have needed the house key which she explained she never ever used anyway. So we can throw all of that sentence away as simple nonsense said just to take up some wasted time in the interview.

 

[CloudedTruth]

ok, not a recent invention. I stand corrected.

the important thing IMO is whether they ever mentioned a key being hidden outside in their earliest statements to the police. I don't believe there's anything about a key under a gnome etc., in officers' reports from 12/26/96. and it would be an odd thing to leave out if you're trying to account for all the ways an intruder had gotten in... unless you forgot, which is possible.

but that brings me to the interviews they finally gave the police 4 months later. does anyone know if those are fully public? and do they ever mention a key hidden outside at that time? ...when they've had 4 months to think about how an intruder could have gotten in and presumably have been trying to figure out.

this is important because the ramseys' stories changed a lot over time. there's a clear pattern, especially with John, where early statements were clear and definitive and made an intruder look unlikely, and then over time -- wouldn't you know it -- stuff gets hazier and the house turns into Swiss cheese.

if there's no mention of keys under a gnome before this interview PR gave 18 months later, long after the ramseys had lawyered up and were working hard to convince everyone there was an intruder, I don't take the claim seriously.

As I posted above, that interview is from 1998. I have found nothing about a key hidden outside mentioned in the earlier interviews given in April of 1997.

This interview with PR I find quite interesting, as it underscores how inconsistent they were with so many things. And as is mentioned, that one paragraph of comment from PR is literally nonsensical. In JR's interviews with police and they are discussing his having to break a window to get in the house and more than once, he has never mentioned a hidden key elsewhere. He never mentions Pierre.

Interestingly, I just watched a video posted from someone's Ring (or similar) camera of some guy who had tried to get into the owner's house. He looked under the door mat for a key. There wasn't one there so he left. Probably the first most obvious spot that people might leave a spare key.

In the Ramsey case, they left for the White's house somewhere around 5-5:30PM. On 12/25 it would've been dark already.

Both Ramseys mention using the garage opener as the most frequent way of getting into the house, presumably because they have driven somewhere. I wonder how unusual it was for people NOT to have a house key on the car keychain? We always did. A few years back we purchased a car that uses a fob instead of a key, and the battery on the garage door opener died. We were locked out. Called a locksmith. Learned the lesson and made sure that a front door key was attached to the fob just in case. Not rocket science.

 

[cenazoic]

few years back we purchased a car that uses a fob instead of a key,

Totally unrelated to thread, but are you sure your fob doesn’t have a key inside? I have a Toyota Highlander with fob, but there’s a way to pop out a physical key in the event the fob battery dies at an inopportune time.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Totally unrelated to thread, but are you sure your fob doesn’t have a key inside? I have a Toyota Highlander with fob, but there’s a way to pop out a physical key in the event the fob battery dies at an inopportune time.

Yes, but good point. We have a newer Toyota 4Runner with a fob, and there is a physical key inside if needed which is brilliant. The other vehicle is a different make and the fob doesn’t include a hidden key.