Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #12

[otto]

It *seems* to me (IMO) that most murder trials are by jury... I wonder what the stats are on that and also I wonder what the conviction rate of one versus the other would be?

I don't know the stats of jury versus judge alone, but it seems to me that many murder trials are by judge alone. I don't think it has any bearing on the verdict.

 

[otto]

Just a few pages back newstalk addressed a post in which a WS member wondered whether they might still be alive; newstalk made it very clear that LE must have substantial physical evidence of their deaths in order to bring charges of both first degree and second degree murder.

It's understandable for people to not want to accept a sad and upsetting outcome, but LE would not have brought those charges without very good reason.

It might seem preferable to some to come up with various crime novel-worthy scenarios that have the victims alive and in hiding, but the simplest explanations are often the best. Sometimes it's not a conspiracy - sometimes it's just a brute with a weapon.

Exactly. We can choose to accept what investigators have said, or we can assume that they don't know what they are doing and that the family is actually in Disneyland.

 

[Sillybilly]

I don't know the stats of jury versus judge alone, but it seems to me that many murder trials are by judge alone. I don't think it has any bearing on the verdict.

Good article out of Australia wrt "the top ten things you should know":

http://www.news.com.au/national/jud...on-this-decision/story-fncynjr2-1226759899197

 

[Sillybilly]

Not so much as sounding like psychics as trying to brainstorm conclusions for there is a lot more that we DON'T know than what we DO know in this case. There is more info being held than released in this case. JMO

Of course there is a lot we don't know that LE does, but to believe that the victims could still be alive when it has been concluded by a team of seasoned homicide investigators in conjunction with the ME, announced by the Chief of CPS, and conveyed to the family? There is forensic evidence in this case as opposed to the case of the disappearing canoe guy. Anybody can toss out an empty canoe and disappear, but try staging a bloody crime scene with DNA where it is determined that 3 victims are dead. IMO, that's grasping at straws with no logical basis, and borders on wilda$$ speculation with nothing to substantiate it.

PS: If I'm wrong, I will eat my entire wardrobe :biggrin:

 

[PrincessButtercup]

Exactly. We can choose to accept what investigators have said, or we can assume that they don't know what they are doing and that the family is actually in Disneyland.

Or Chichen Itza [emoji12]

 

[Tinkerbel1]

And the best part of this story is they went to PANAMA. JMO

Yeah...lol. Just like James Darwin...perhaps its a copycat thing? One never knows about people these days. Greed does crazy things to people, and makes them do crazy things too.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Or Chichen Itza [emoji12]

Maybe the investigators are telling the public whatever they want them to believe, in order to flush out what's really going on. There is no way that if there were bodies they are far away, otherwise, as I said...DG would`ve had to stop for gas on the way...highly unlikely? It's hard enough to dispose of 1 body without a trace, what are the odds of disposing of 3 without a trace? And, if they found any remains of any of the victims I'm sure they would've shared that with the public because it just makes their case against DG that much stronger...there's no point whatsoever in hiding that information. And yes, NO was perhaps told they were going to Disneyland. JMO

 

[Krystine]

Of course there is a lot we don't know that LE does, but to believe that the victims could still be alive when it has been concluded by a team of seasoned homicide investigators in conjunction with the ME, announced by the Chief of CPS, and conveyed to the family? There is forensic evidence in this case as opposed to the case of the disappearing canoe guy. Anybody can toss out an empty canoe and disappear, but try staging a bloody crime scene with DNA where it is determined that 3 victims are dead. IMO, that's grasping at straws with no logical basis, and borders on wilda$$ speculation with nothing to substantiate it.

Agree wholeheartedly with this.


PS: If I'm wrong, I will eat my entire wardrobe :biggrin:

I think you're right.
I am fairly new here, but have noticed when the initial buzz of this case started to subside, a lot of posts turned to idle speculation and repetition, with a bit of 'in-fighting' thrown in.
Is it that sleuthers just don't feel right when they're not sleuthing?

 

[Cherchri]

Of course there is a lot we don't know that LE does, but to believe that the victims could still be alive when it has been concluded by a team of seasoned homicide investigators in conjunction with the ME, announced by the Chief of CPS, and conveyed to the family? There is forensic evidence in this case as opposed to the case of the disappearing canoe guy. Anybody can toss out an empty canoe and disappear, but try staging a bloody crime scene with DNA where it is determined that 3 victims are dead. IMO, that's grasping at straws with no logical basis, and borders on wilda$$ speculation with nothing to substantiate it.

PS: If I'm wrong, I will eat my entire wardrobe :biggrin:

To say nothing of the fact that LE threw massive manpower into this investigation and continues to do so. Not only CPS but RCMP too. I trust that they know what they are doing.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Exactly. We can choose to accept what investigators have said, or we can assume that they don't know what they are doing and that the family is actually in Disneyland.

No, they're not in Disneyland. They are probably in Panama. The Investigators can tell us whatever the heck they want to tell us in order to solve this case...has anyone seen any evidence that the police are actually telling the public the truth? I may have missed something because I don't know of any?

 

[goodasgold]

Of course there is a lot we don't know that LE does, but to believe that the victims could still be alive when it has been concluded by a team of seasoned homicide investigators in conjunction with the ME, announced by the Chief of CPS, and conveyed to the family? There is forensic evidence in this case as opposed to the case of the disappearing canoe guy. Anybody can toss out an empty canoe and disappear, but try staging a bloody crime scene with DNA where it is determined that 3 victims are dead. IMO, that's grasping at straws with no logical basis, and borders on wilda$$ speculation with nothing to substantiate it.

PS: If I'm wrong, I will eat my entire wardrobe :biggrin:

I never said LE is wrong or fooled by three homicides. If they indeed are not bluffing on the murder charges, then there was a death there but maybe not all 3. I believe there is a chance NO is alive. The crime map even states 2 homicides. I do not think there is evidence of NO being murdered in that house. JMO

 

[Krystine]

I never said LE is wrong or fooled by three homicides. If they indeed are not bluffing on the murder charges, then there was a death there but maybe not all 3. I believe there is a chance NO is alive. The crime map even states 2 homicides. I do not think there is evidence of NO being murdered in that house. JMO

It's not impossible, and a cheering thought that NO could be alive. I'm keeping an open mind, and won't be disappointed if this case turns out to be a lot less complicated than we thought.
As per the crime map,...it's surprising to me that an admin. clerk got a bit ahead of herself by entering 2 homicides at that address, when the case is still in the headlines and unsolved.
I'm thinking a typo?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Seriously? You're trying to compare a guy who pretended to get lost at sea with a house and farm full of physical forensic evidence, enough to allow LE to determine the victims are dead? Sorry, that doesn't cut it. IMO, at least.

For one thing, all they went by in the canoe man's case (I remember that from 2011) were the remains of the canoe, his continued absence, and his wife's claim that he was missing. There wasn't any forensic evidence to go by like there is here.

Secondly, canoe man noted that he was able to fool his sons into thinking him dead because "They had moved away, they were adults. We had lost contact, they were writing infrequently and making contact infrequently. ... They had their own lives to lead. You put in your own mind that they don't care." From what we know, that also doesn't apply in this case. AL and KL were at least close to RO, JO and the kids, and I believe most of the extended family kept in regular contact.

Besides which, by suggesting that this is in any way similar to canoe man's case, you're implying that AL and KL were willing to cause their family extreme grief by faking their deaths and faking them in such a spectacularly detailed and comprehensive way as to cause LE to believe supposedly faked forensic evidence. :banghead: Okay, maybe their financial dealings were a little eyebrow-raising but they don't appear to have been cruel people, and they'd have to be to put their loved ones through this.

Unless you think that the rest of the family might be aware of the deception ... in which case you'd also be accusing the family members of perpetrating fraud on the police, the courts and the public.

​

On another of your points: No, newstalk isn't LE but he's logical, practical, and has experience reporting on other crimes. There are a few others here who have valuable and helpful practical experience: ex-reporters, researchers, etc., but most of us are just interested observers who have no such experience from which to draw. But we can at least try to be logical about things.

While I completely dismiss the manner of canoe man's faked death as being in any way applicable to this case, there were a couple of things that did catch my attention.

From your first link: "Officers have begun probing a tangled web of finances involving mortgage and endowment policies, pension funds and property deals." Now that sounds familiar.

Also, mention of Panama.

And this: "He spent five years living in Panama under the identity stolen from dead baby John Jones." Like Garland's pretending to be Matthew Hartley.

Having said all that, I too believe there's more to this case than we know.

With all due respect...how do we know for a FACT that there was [B]"a house full and farm full of physical forensic evidence"[/B] We only know what we are being told.

As for logic...trying to make logic out of something illogical is pretty tough to do. And I'm of the opinion that many great detectives also rely hugely on their intuition and "gut feelings" on cases, so I don't see any reason that we can't share some of our "gut feelings" or intuitive insights while discussing this in this Forum.

Reporters may have experience that we don't have on crime scenes but many (not pointing fingers at any one in particular) do not accurately report what is actually going on. I have read several articles in this case on the very same subject and have read differing descriptions of the event...so....I wouldn't necessarily rely on any reporters judgement (no offense newtalk) that wasn't LE or Government appointed. Even then, we've got Crown Forensic Psychiatrists that report untruths and assumptions in court.

Because this case has so many extenuating circumstances on both sides that do cause one to raise their eyebrows and go "hmmm"...I would probably want some cold hard evidence...like bodies, or partial remains at the very least of the deceased...to prove that they are not still alive...because there is good cause to believe, IMO, that a voluntary disappearance here is entirely possible.

 

[otto]

Maybe the investigators are telling the public whatever they want them to believe, in order to flush out what's really going on. There is no way that if there were bodies they are far away, otherwise, as I said...DG would`ve had to stop for gas on the way...highly unlikely? It's hard enough to dispose of 1 body without a trace, what are the odds of disposing of 3 without a trace? And, if they found any remains of any of the victims I'm sure they would've shared that with the public because it just makes their case against DG that much stronger...there's no point whatsoever in hiding that information. And yes, NO was perhaps told they were going to Disneyland. JMO

The medical examiner has declared that the three missing persons are deceased. If that was incorrect, how would that false statement "flush out" new suspects? Police have stated that they are not looking for any other suspects. Why shouldn't we believe them? If there is another person that has a reason to murder more people in the Liknes/Obrien families, wouldn't it be extremely irresponsible of police to state that there are no other suspects?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

To say nothing of the fact that LE threw massive manpower into this investigation and continues to do so. Not only CPS but RCMP too. I trust that they know what they are doing.

LE also throws a lot of money into drugs and manpower to bust drug operations and gang-related issues as well...so, whatever m/o they choose to use to solve a crime, is fair, despite the costs. We had a premier that cost us more than this entire investigation has I'm sure, for no good reason, so....

 

[news.talk]

No, they're not in Disneyland. They are probably in Panama. The Investigators can tell us whatever the heck they want to tell us in order to solve this case...has anyone seen any evidence that the police are actually telling the public the truth? I may have missed something because I don't know of any?

I highly doubt the Chief Medical Examiner, the Chief of Police and the Crown Prosecutor are all in collusion to fake murder charges and railroad an innocent man. I'm sorry, but the victims are NOT in Panama or anywhere else alive.

The preponderance of evidence necessary for the Crown to file homicide charges is exponentially higher when there are no bodies. They are keeping information from the public so they can protect their case - nothing more.

 

[news.talk]

It's not impossible, and a cheering thought that NO could be alive. I'm keeping an open mind, and won't be disappointed if this case turns out to be a lot less complicated than we thought.
As per the crime map,...it's surprising to me that an admin. clerk got a bit ahead of herself by entering 2 homicides at that address, when the case is still in the headlines and unsolved.
I'm thinking a typo?

It is possible that to protect the integrity of the case, LE has not released that information yet.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

The medical examiner has declared that the three missing persons are deceased. If that was incorrect, how would that false statement "flush out" new suspects? Police have stated that they are not looking for any other suspects. Why shouldn't we believe them? If there is another person that has a reason to murder more people in the Liknes/Obrien families, wouldn't it be extremely irresponsible of police to state that there are no other suspects?

I was looking for, and I'm not sure if it would be public record...but I was looking to see if any death certificates have been issued on the 3 victims...I haven't found anything...if anyone else has could you please share that information? As well, there are only 2 victims reported at the Liknes home...what happened to NO then?

To be honest, I was incredibly shocked that they so very quickly announced, and so definitely announced, "there were no other suspects"...from "we have high hopes to finding them alive" on Friday to BOOM! "We have no other suspects" on Sunday. Wow! That's a pretty fast turnaround. Even if they have collected loads of forensic evidence proving that DG did this...there is NO WAY that they have sifted through everything to the nth degree in order to at the very least disqualify the possibility of an accomplice in a two week period! Its going to take 30 days to get the disclosure documents to the Defence, IMO, it would take them months and months to make absolute certain that DG didn't have someone working with him.

 

[Sillybilly]

I highly doubt the Chief Medical Examiner, the Chief of Police and the Crown Prosecutor are all in collusion to fake murder charges and railroad an innocent man. I'm sorry, but the victims are NOT in Panama or anywhere else alive.

The preponderance of evidence necessary for the Crown to file homicide charges is exponentially higher when there are no bodies. They are keeping information from the public so they can protect their case - nothing more.

Their tummies told them all the same thing and their tummies were wrong?

 

[PrincessButtercup]

I was looking for, and I'm not sure if it would be public record...but I was looking to see if any death certificates have been issued on the 3 victims...I haven't found anything...if anyone else has could you please share that information? As well, there are only 2 victims reported at the Liknes home...what happened to NO then?

To be honest, I was incredibly shocked that they so very quickly announced, and so definitely announced, "there were no other suspects"...from "we have high hopes to finding them alive" on Friday to BOOM! "We have no other suspects" on Sunday. Wow! That's a pretty fast turnaround. Even if they have collected loads of forensic evidence proving that DG did this...there is NO WAY that they have sifted through everything to the nth degree in order to at the very least disqualify the possibility of an accomplice in a two week period! Its going to take 30 days to get the disclosure documents to the Defence, IMO, it would take them months and months to make absolute certain that DG didn't have someone working with him.

Death records are protected under privacy laws for (I believe,) 50 years after death.