Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[otto]

bbm

Does anyone know if there's a thread on ws for this case?

There is. It's four pages long.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...er-stabbing-at-Calgary-University-house-party

 

[otto]

Yes. The Pickton trial took place in the B.C. Supreme Court in New Westminster, and both a main and an overflow courtroom were designated. There were so many direct and indirect victims involved in that trial, plus their advocates and the support from Victim Services in Vancouver and aboriginal services, and the evidence so graphic, that the separate room was definitely needed. Over 250 media were accredited to attend the trial. As well as a separate room for families, a separate room for media was established. Court protocol allowed for the drinking of beverages, gum chewing and reading in the family and media room, but regular rules were held in all other courtrooms.

How many families were involved in the Pickton trial?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Does it seem like the police have laid out the case to the same degree of information as they did with the first mass murder (2.5 months earlier)? Is anything known about forensic evidence in the first mass murder?

I guess a huge difference is that in the first mass murder, there were eye-witnesses, and in the second mass murder, the location of all victims continues to be a complete mystery.

Matthew DeGrood's case seems to be IMO down-played a bit as the psychiatric care he is undergoing is still ongoing, so there doesn't appear to be much movement or information on this case as of yet. His lawyer Allan Fay eludes to there being a question as to whether his client will be considered as "criminally responsible at the time of the murders" or not. IMO, there isn't as much focus put on the forensic evidence in this case as it is obvious who committed the murders, what isn't obvious, is whether he was in his "right mind" so to speak, so there wouldn't be as much interest in the forensic evidence as there potentially may be in his psychiatric diagnosis once it has been determined.
http://metronews.ca/news/canada/1103995/stabbing-suspect-appears-in-calgary-court/
]

 

[Deleted member 117120]

Speaking of location of bodies, I think that the location will mean something to the accused in terms of him feeling smug about being so clever. I think he was seething with rage when he committed the murders, that he thought carefully about what he would do from beginning to end. When it came to hiding bodies, maybe that is what this has in common with the female remains that were found 16km W of the Airdrie acreage.

What does this murder have in common with that murder? I think a skull and leg bones were found in the 2006 or 07 case (?), but it could have been coyotes that disturbed the bones.

I'm wondering where he would put the bodies that would make sense in the context of his revenge. A wheat field, like the other remains?

Maybe evidence of her clothing was found in the burn pit that was under the tents during the search at the Airdrie property.

In terms of a disposal site/sites having some form of meaning or significance to the accused in how he may have viewed the adult victims, what could be the scenario or location? We know LE searched the landfills and this could be deemed a site which could represent a warped perception by the suspect as a fitting location. We don't know if what LE retrieved from the landfill is related to this crime so we can not know for certain this occurred.

 

[news.talk]

Does it seem like the police have laid out the case to the same degree of information as they did with the first mass murder (2.5 months earlier)? Is anything known about forensic evidence in the first mass murder?

I guess a huge difference is that in the first mass murder, there were eye-witnesses, and in the second mass murder, the location of all victims continues to be a complete mystery.

IMO, the first mass murder was fairly cut and dry. The need for disclosure and forensic evidence was not necessary for public satisfaction.

 

[otto]

Regarding the removal of the contents from the first mass murder crime scene: "“On the sociological side, the idea is to get the house completely cleaned up, get all the belongings out of the house . . . make sure none of the items show up on eBay,” said Bell."

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/c...10083369/story.html?google_editors_picks=true

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Speaking of location of bodies, I think that the location will mean something to the accused in terms of him feeling smug about being so clever. I think he was seething with rage when he committed the murders, that he thought carefully about what he would do from beginning to end. When it came to hiding bodies, maybe that is what this has in common with the female remains that were found 16km W of the Airdrie acreage.

What does this murder have in common with that murder? I think a skull and leg bones were found in the 2006 or 07 case (?), but it could have been coyotes that disturbed the bones.

I'm wondering where he would put the bodies that would make sense in the context of his revenge. A wheat field, like the other remains?

Maybe evidence of her clothing was found in the burn pit that was under the tents during the search at the Airdrie property.

If that were the case, wouldn't LE have charged DG with MH's murder as well? What might they be waiting for then?

 

[otto]

IMO, the first mass murder was fairly cut and dry. The need for disclosure and forensic evidence was not necessary for public satisfaction.

Police should never act in favour of satisfying public curiosity. The first mass murder was fairly cut and dry in terms of crime scene analysis, arrested, charged, and psychiatric institution.

I liked the prosecutor's statement on Aug 14 where he said that it was up to the defence to request a psychiatric evaluation. In this mass murder the accused was apprehended in four days, but there was insufficient evidence to hold him. Instead, he was picked up for identity theft, had his hearings delayed, was jailed over the weekend, released, and picked up a day or two later, arrested, charged, and now trial process.

It took three more days to identify the suspect.
They waited for forensic evidence to arrest him.

 

[otto]

If that were the case, wouldn't LE have charged DG with MH's murder as well? What might they be waiting for then?

Which ... they found her button in his fire pit, only partial remains will be found, or this is another case where the bodies are taken from their crime scene and are really well hidden? Where did she live, and was the crime scene identified, or did she simply vanish?

 

[wendiesan]

How many families were involved in the Pickton trial?

Pickton claimed to have killed 49 women. The R.C.M.P. found evidence on his farm of 33 different women, but not all of them could be identified.

Pickton was convicted in 2007 of second-degree murder in the deaths of Sereena Abotsway, Marnie Frey, Andrea Joesbury, Georgina Papin, Mona Wilson and Brenda Wolfe.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/07/30/no_new_trial_for_serial_killer_robert_pickton.html

In 2010 the Supreme Court denied Pickton's request for a new trial.

The ruling means the families of the six women will not have to face another trial. It also means Pickton will not be tried for the deaths of 20 other women. Crown prosecutors said Friday they will formally stay charges in those deaths because Pickton is already serving the maximum sentence of 25 years without possibility of parole.
RCMP Inspector Gary Shinkaruk told reporters Friday that RCMP had recommended charges against the pig farmer in the deaths of 33 women.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/07/30/no_new_trial_for_serial_killer_robert_pickton.html

The original trial judge made the decision to have two trials. The first for six women, the second for another twenty. Needless to say, this was very controversial. The trial was ten months long, and, since travel was a concern, not all family members attended every day of the trial. There was some money provided for families by the province.

Controversy over how the funds were allocated has abated somewhat. At the outset of the trial, money was given for only two family members, plus a child, to attend court and the money went to blood relatives only.

Foster families were left out and it was up to the families themselves to decide how the money would be spent. In Papin's case, her sisters got the funds, her eldest daughter didn't. But with the jury now deliberating, the province is paying for the trips again and still more family members have arrived in B.C., to be housed in local hotels and shepherded through the proceedings by an army of service workers.

Members of each of the six women's families have told victims' services they plan to be in New Westminster, in suburban Vancouver, when the verdict is delivered. Those who can't be there will receive a telephone call and the jury's decision will be posted on a secure website for them to access.

http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=22.95;wap2

IIRC, the family room was a place of respite for family members. When things were too graphic in the main courtroom, they could retreat immediately to the family room. The details were grisly.

The deluge of tears and outrage from families that marked the trial's first few days gave way to silence over the months as jurors heard about the women's decomposing remains, their lipsticks and purses in garbage bags, their jewelry on a slaughterhouse shelf.

http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=22.95;wap2

Again, IIRC, some family members of the twenty not included in the first trial attended from time to time and family members of missing women thought to be Pickton's other victims did so as well. I don't think they would have had official standing to use the designated family room, but I could be wrong. If I find more information I'll let you know.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

In terms of a disposal site/sites having some form of meaning or significance to the accused in how he may have viewed the adult victims, what could be the scenario or location? We know LE searched the landfills and this could be deemed a site which could represent a warped perception by the suspect as a fitting location. We don't know if what LE retrieved from the landfill is related to this crime so we can not know for certain this occurred.

For reasons unknown, LE had specifically asked companies to check their well sites for anything out of the ordinary.

If there is the meaningful dump site aspect to it like otto suggests, then the alleged patent dispute over the machinery to remove water from gas wells gives a well site a certain ironic appeal.

Again... pure speculation.

 

[otto]

Pickton claimed to have killed 49 women. The R.C.M.P. found evidence on his farm of 33 different women, but not all of them could be identified.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/07/30/no_new_trial_for_serial_killer_robert_pickton.html

In 2010 the Supreme Court denied Pickton's request for a new trial.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/07/30/no_new_trial_for_serial_killer_robert_pickton.html

The original trial judge made the decision to have two trials. The first for six women, the second for another twenty. Needless to say, this was very controversial. The trial was ten months long, and, since travel was a concern, not all family members attended every day of the trial. There was some money provided for families by the province.

http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=22.95;wap2

IIRC, the family room was a place of respite for family members. When things were too graphic in the main courtroom, they could retreat immediately to the family room. The details were grisly.

http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=22.95;wap2

Again, IIRC, some family members of the twenty not included in the first trial attended from time to time and family members of missing women thought to be Pickton's other victims did so as well. I don't think they would have had official standing to use the designated family room, but I could be wrong. If I find more information I'll let you know.

That would explain all the overflow in the courtroom at the Pickton trial. This trial has really only one family; two grandparents, and one grandson. Seven related children/parents are grieving. I don't see this like the Pickton trial, where there were 33 victims and "over 250 media were accredited to attend the trial. As well as a separate room for families, a separate room for media was established."

 

[Tinkerbel1]

In terms of a disposal site/sites having some form of meaning or significance to the accused in how he may have viewed the adult victims, what could be the scenario or location? We know LE searched the landfills and this could be deemed a site which could represent a warped perception by the suspect as a fitting location. We don't know if what LE retrieved from the landfill is related to this crime so we can not know for certain this occurred.

That is an interesting thought. Do you think DG would be interested in leading LE on a merry chase by making them think where he may have put the bodies? I don`t know, I think he was fairly straightforward in his methods...IMO...he wanted to leave no trace of them...not in a wheat field, not by an old pump jack and not in the garbage dump. This behaviour may be more in line with a serial killer, but I don't think DG is that. He`s a chemical dude...that would be my first thought...acid maybe. We just built a fence...put the posts in and poured concrete in the postholes to cement them in. How hard would it be to say dissolve the bodies in acid, put them in a box or crate and pour do-it-yourself concrete mix in the box...then maybe take the box to a lake where you know there`s a deep spot, or the river and throw it in? LE have only checked the sloughs around DG's acreage. He is a smart man, there must be another place he knows of that he could've done that at. He knows Robert Pickton got caught with the evidence on his property, so I don't think he'ld do this at his house, he's likely done it somewhere else. Just a thought.

 

[otto]

For reasons unknown, LE had specifically asked companies to check their well sites for anything out of the ordinary.

If there is the meaningful dump site aspect to it like otto suggests, then the alleged patent dispute over the machinery to remove water from gas wells gives a well site a certain ironic appeal.

Again... pure speculation.

That makes sense. I also wondered about lakes near refineries. Abandoned wells sounds like a good possibility. I wonder if that's where police are searching.

 

[otto]

That is an interesting thought. Do you think DG would be interested in leading LE on a merry chase by making them think where he may have put the bodies? I don`t know, I think he was fairly straightforward in his methods...IMO...he wanted to leave no trace of them...not in a wheat field, not by an old pump jack and not in the garbage dump. This behaviour may be more in line with a serial killer, but I don't think DG is that. He`s a chemical dude...that would be my first thought...acid maybe. We just built a fence...put the posts in and poured concrete in the postholes to cement them in. How hard would it be to say dissolve the bodies in acid, put them in a box or crate and pour do-it-yourself concrete mix in the box...then maybe take the box to a lake where you know there`s a deep spot, or the river and throw it in? LE have only checked the sloughs around DG's acreage. He is a smart man, there must be another place he knows of that he could've done that at. He knows Robert Pickton got caught with the evidence on his property, so I don't think he'ld do this at his house, he's likely done it somewhere else. Just a thought.

Paul Bernardo tried that. He encased body parts in different cement blocks and put them in water. The cement broke away/deteriorated and she was found.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Which ... they found her button in his fire pit, only partial remains will be found, or this is another case where the bodies are taken from their crime scene and are really well hidden? Where did she live, and was the crime scene identified, or did she simply vanish?

I don't know how they could determine it was her button? I think that they were looking into the possibility of DG being responsible for that crime because of the close proximity to his acreage (which IMO he's too smart to do). Is there a standard procedure for LE to follow when they've arrested someone and charged them with a crime? Maybe check other unsolved crimes/murders that could be related by running their fingerprints and perhaps DNA information thru their databanks? I would think that DG was fingerprinted and probably had to submit DNA samples when arrested? IMO the body of MH was just coincidental, but maybe not? If not, what would his motive be?

 

[otto]

I don't know how they could determine it was her button? I think that they were looking into the possibility of DG being responsible for that crime because of the close proximity to his acreage (which IMO he's too smart to do). Is there a standard procedure for LE to follow when they've arrested someone and charged them with a crime? Maybe check other unsolved crimes/murders that could be related by running their fingerprints and perhaps DNA information thru their databanks? I would think that DG was fingerprinted and probably had to submit DNA samples when arrested? IMO the body of MH was just coincidental, but maybe not? If not, what would his motive be?

That victim was a drug using street walker. It's not too difficult to figure out how they met. He's a loner, he knows something about drugs, he lives near the location of the remains ... and what else ... something else is similar to the crime scene of this mass murder. Was her apartment a crime scene?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Paul Bernardo tried that. He encased body parts in different cement blocks and put them in water. The cement broke away/deteriorated and she was found.

I wasn't aware of that. I usually don't follow the news, etc. This case and that of Matthew DeGrood are interesting to me though. Well maybe it just hasn't been long enough for the cement to deteriorate. It's been only 7 weeks. I really have no idea what he did with them. I just don't think he would bother leading LE to the bodies through any sort of 'associative' technique. IMO, he would want to lead them away from the bodies, not see if they could figure out through a 'riddle-clue' where they are. IMO, he was not looking to get caught...I don't believe he would taunt the police, that's not his deal...IMO he isn't after attention...or trying to prove he's smarter than the police. IMO this was a personal thing for him and he just did what he wanted to do...bodies were just disposed of in a way that they were least likely to be discovered. Although, again, who knows? He did use the same false identification during the time he was a POI in this case, in the same name as he got caught with before. I still think he did that for a specific reason, or perhaps, the man is seriously mentally affected somehow. His behaviour, IMO is just strange.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

That victim was a drug using street walker. It's not too difficult to figure out how they met. He's a loner, he knows something about drugs, he lives near the location of the remains ... and what else ... something else is similar to the crime scene of this mass murder. Was her apartment a crime scene?

Maybe they found some DNA in his truck? If she was a streetwalker on drugs, maybe he provided the drugs for her? It would make sense that she very well could've been in his vehicle. But why haven't they charged him with her murder yet? Waiting for testing results? You could be right, Otto. I would be surprised though...he may be a loner, he may have picked her up, but what would be his motivation to kill her? Surely to goodness if he is doing this for sport, he would've at least been a suspect...wouldn't LE have checked into the surrounding homes where her body was found, just as they did in this case? I don't know...but it does give pause for thought, that's for sure. Did he know her? Was she associated with KL maybe? If they were all from the same area, maybe they all knew each other? Hmmm, will check into this case too I think, sounds interesting.

 

[otto]

I wasn't aware of that. I usually don't follow the news, etc. This case and that of Matthew DeGrood are interesting to me though. Well maybe it just hasn't been long enough for the cement to deteriorate. It's been only 7 weeks. I really have no idea what he did with them. I just don't think he would bother leading LE to the bodies through any sort of 'associative' technique. IMO, he would want to lead them away from the bodies, not see if they could figure out through a 'riddle-clue' where they are. IMO, he was not looking to get caught...I don't believe he would taunt the police, that's not his deal...IMO he isn't after attention...or trying to prove he's smarter than the police. IMO this was a personal thing for him and he just did what he wanted to do...bodies were just disposed of in a way that they were least likely to be discovered. Although, again, who knows? He did use the same false identification during the time he was a POI in this case, in the same name as he got caught with before. I still think he did that for a specific reason, or perhaps, the man is seriously mentally affected somehow. His behaviour, IMO is just strange.

Gruesome:

"Missing: June 14, 1991 ... Sunday, June 16, 1991 was Father's Day. Bernardo and Homolka moved Mahaffy's body from an upstairs bedroom to the basement. They then entertained the Homolka family—without Homolka's sister, Tammy, whom they had killed December 24, 1990—on the main floor of the house, with Homolka making a special effort to keep her mother from going downstairs. When the family left, Bernardo and Homolka used his grandfather's circular saw to dismember Mahaffy's body into pieces small enough to lift when covered with concrete. Later, in a confession to her aunt before revealing details to the police, Homolka claimed that Bernardo did this while she was at work on Monday. Bernardo's version asserts that she did not help him rinse and bag the body parts.

Mahaffy's body was found dismembered and encased in concrete on June 29, 1991 in Lake Gibson near St. Catharines, Ontario. The concrete block containing the torso weighed over 200 pounds. Her braces and dental records confirmed her identity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Mahaffy

Not Gruesome

He had the false identity documents re-issued. That's a bold move, and one where he's proving to himself that the government is pretty stupid. I think he would try to be clever with the location of the bodies while at the same time trying to get away with the murders.