Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[Cherchri]

Since absolutely ZERO results from the evidence gathered have been reported, what difference does the time span make?

Agreed. I was simply making the point (or trying to ) that evidence was collected from the acreage and that it was indeed a crime scene - not just because it had yellow tape across the driveway. The whole "no trace" thing rankles me a little. I suspect the writer should have said no bodies have been found. Sadly, we likely won't know the details for a couple of years unless DG pleads guilty on Sept 17.

 

[news.talk]

Agreed. I was simply making the point (or trying to ) that evidence was collected from the acreage and that it was indeed a crime scene - not just because it had yellow tape across the driveway. The whole "no trace" thing rankles me a little. I suspect the writer should have said no bodies have been found. Sadly, we likely won't know the details for a couple of years unless DG pleads guilty on Sept 17.

If there was truly confirmation that the results of forensic evidence shows that absolutely no trace of the victims was found at the acreage, then all MSM outlets would be running that as a separate and major development story. LE would be up in arms to discover and seal the leak, then making a public statement to address the leaked information. Defence Council would possibly make a statement in favour of his client and there would be a lot of talk about how the release of evidence results compromise the Crown's case.... etc...

IOW - it would be a MAJOR story and not one sentence in the middle of a recap story.

 

[winnnancy]

Thank you, I'm not sure what I was supposed to get from this?
Here is one that seems more straightforward to me. http://www.lsuc.on.ca/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=214
I'm not sure what your point is?

Further to your post 546 which sounds exactly right. KR is waiting for disclosure not only to determine how to proceed in the defense . He is also bound by ethics and is accountable to law society benchers.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I feel so bad for PG. I mean you want justice for your family members but her brother is her brother. It would be a bunch of emotions and pain. Tough spot for anyone to be in. No matter what way the verdict goes it will affect her.

Or emotions could swing the other way for PG - she could be a relieved. Who know what kind of problems DG may have caused his family all these years, they all might've been walking on eggshells around him since his return from BC (and before). Just playing devil's advocate a bit as I've seen people like this in people's families, the troubled guy everyone dreads being around who stresses everyone out and causes problems for everyone around them their whole life.

 

[winnnancy]

Oh my.
Are you suggesting that perhaps Mrs. G. is not suffering as much as Mrs. O? Have they both not lost their children? Perhaps in very different ways, but I don't think anyone could (or should) make a judgement call on who is entitled to suffer more than the other.
They are both mothers, and they are both suffering. How can anyone measure the level of grief, loss and suffering of either one of these ladies?
JMO, but the hope would be that there be enough understanding and compassion going out to both of them regardless of which side of this tragedy they are on.
As for the other family members of all the victims and the suspects, they are all suffering...suffering is suffering...the level is irrelevant, IMO.
Broken hearts, broken dreams, broken hopes, loss of a loved one ...likely common feelings for all of them.

I'm not disputing that everyone is suffering. One mother MAY be visiting her child in prison, the other will be visiting hers at the cemetery.

 

[news.talk]

Further to your post 546 which sounds exactly right. KR is waiting for disclosure not only to determine how to proceed in the defense . He is also bound by ethics and is accountable to law society benchers.

One thing that bugs me about KR's statement about a plea - that he is waiting for disclosure to determine whether or not to pursue a psychiatric assessment. If there was even an inkling that a client might not be fit to stand trial or not guilty by reason of mental defect, why would he need to wait for disclosure? Something seems off.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

One thing that bugs me about KR's statement about a plea - that he is waiting for disclosure to determine whether or not to pursue a psychiatric assessment. If there was even an inkling that a client might not be fit to stand trial or not guilty by reason of mental defect, why would he need to wait for disclosure? Something seems off.

Most likely that was speaking strategically, but to give the benefit of the doubt, why put someone through an assement unless it's necessary...

Strategically, if LE has nothing to prove he did it, then it would be a waste of time, and potentially provide some incriminating evidence should LE subpeona the results, meeting notes, or testimony from the assessor.

 

[news.talk]

Most likely that was speaking strategically, but to give the benefit of the doubt, why put someone through an assement unless it's necessary...

Strategically, if LE has nothing to prove he did it, then it would be a waste of time, and potentially provide some incriminating evidence should LE subpeona the results, meeting notes, or testimony from the assessor.

I agree that strategically it makes sense to some degree. However, his client is obviously suffering with some mental health issues - he was been on suicide watch almost since he was remanded. There are other strategies to consider; one being to assume LE did their due diligence and have a fairly solid circumstantial case. Having his mental health assessed early, sets up opportunities for a suspect to better aid in his own defence. It can also provide council information on his client that may significantly help navigate how to proceed.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

If there was truly confirmation that the results of forensic evidence shows that absolutely no trace of the victims was found at the acreage, then all MSM outlets would be running that as a separate and major development story. LE would be up in arms to discover and seal the leak, then making a public statement to address the leaked information. Defence Council would possibly make a statement in favour of his client and there would be a lot of talk about how the release of evidence results compromise the Crown's case.... etc...

IOW - it would be a MAJOR story and not one sentence in the middle of a recap story.

I agree. That would be a major slip up by LE if they let the perp know they had nothing while still able to interview the suspect to gather further evidence.

Given that LE had to wait before charging him, we can assume whatever evidence that convinced them to finally lay charges wasn't as black and white as a video, or pictures, or a diary. Chances are it was something that took time to process or test, and the wait was for conclusive results.

If it is DNA based, in order to tie it to a suspect, they either need the suspect's DNA at the crimescene, or the victim's DNA in an incriminating area like the truck or acreage.

My original point, however, was that we don't know what, if anything, was found at the acreage, but we certainly can't say absolutely nothing from the victims was found based only on a snippet or two from an ambiguously worded article.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I agree that strategically it makes sense to some degree. However, his client is obviously suffering with some mental health issues - he was been on suicide watch almost since he was remanded. There are other strategies to consider; one being to assume LE did their due diligence and have a fairly solid circumstantial case. Having his mental health assessed early, sets up opportunities for a suspect to better aid in his own defence. It can also provide council information on his client that may significantly help navigate how to proceed.

It would be incredibly risky to have your client go for an assessment, and discuss how and why he committed the murders, and then receive the evidence which was possibly obtained without proper warrants, and proves absolutely nothing. Conversely, if he doesn't discuss what he did and why, then the assessment will be meaningless if the evidence proves irrefutable.

The steps in which this is following, disclosure, analysis, strategy, action, is the only one that is in the best interest of his client's case IMO.

 

[news.talk]

It would be incredibly risky to have your client go for an assessment, and discuss how and why he committed the murders, and then receive the evidence which was possibly obtained without proper warrants, and proves absolutely nothing. Conversely, if he doesn't discuss what he did and why, then the assessment will be meaningless if the evidence proves irrefutable.

The steps in which this is following, disclosure, analysis, strategy, action, is the only one that is in the best interest of his client's case IMO.

Perhaps we are referring to two different types of assessments...

I am referring to a mental fitness assessment to determine the status of his mental health and ability to aid in his own defence. Typically, a 30 day assessment that *does not* get into the nature of motivation to commit the crime in question.

http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mohltc/ppa...issions_B.aspx?openMenu=smenu_CriminalCodeAdm

Given the fact that the suspect remains on suicide watch, and has a history of mental health issues, one would think that determining his mental fitness would be crucial.

The fact that KR hasn't made this request, says to me that perhaps DG's mental health is not in as much peril as what is believed when one is on suicide watch. Furthermore, should he claim not responsible by reason of mental defect, the delay in determining mental fitness would be quite telling as a strategy rather than a fact.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Perhaps we are referring to two different types of assessments...

I am referring to a mental fitness assessment to determine the status of his mental health and ability to aid in his own defence. Typically, a 30 day assessment that *does not* get into the nature of motivation to commit the crime in question.

http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mohltc/ppa...issions_B.aspx?openMenu=smenu_CriminalCodeAdm

Given the fact that the suspect remains on suicide watch, and has a history of mental health issues, one would think that determining his mental fitness would be crucial.

The fact that KR hasn't made this request, says to me that perhaps DG's mental health is not in as much peril as what is believed when one is on suicide watch. Furthermore, should he claim not responsible by reason of mental defect, the delay in determining mental fitness would be quite telling as a strategy rather than a fact.

Yes... good point. I was referring to an assessment for the "not criminally responsible" defence. I just assumed since KR said DG was also anxious to see the disclosure, that DG is already participating in his own defence and understands the process.

Even such, were I a lawyer, I would not want to encourage any more interviews with my client than necessary, until I knew how we were going to proceed.

 

[bullish]

Why would courthouses be designed with courtrooms to accommodate the public, and then two additional rooms for all the people (supporting victim or accused) that want to be accommodated but who, for whatever reason, don't want to sit in a courtroom? That doesn't make any sense to me. If there was that much extra space in the courthouse, I'm sure the prosecutor's offices would be bigger and each would have a room with a view.

Also they'd have to have at least 1 other security guard on duty for each additional room, just in case someone decides to take justice into their own hands.

 

[bullish]

A mystery no more.... Sadly this Alberta family was apparently murdered by their son/brother and his associate http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/08/1...ate-charged-in-murder-of-three-family-members
LE located key evidence in a lake just recently..so they never stopped investigating or searching.

Sad news indeed. I give thanks every day that I was born into a decent, loving family.

What I found interesting about this story is that LE had the son in their sights as a suspect from the beginning but it took several months to find enough evidence to seal the deal. Compare that to this case where they were able to get enough evidence to bring murder charges against the suspect within, what? 2 weeks. 3 weeks.

Granted, the fire would have destroyed or altered a lot of the evidence in the first case...

 

[goodasgold]

I'm not disputing that everyone is suffering. One mother MAY be visiting her child in prison, the other will be visiting hers at the cemetery.

With all due respect to JO, because i feel terrible for her and know it is painful and she is suffering. DG's mother will not only be suffering because of her son in prison. She will be living the guilt of what her son did to that family, every day. She will put that guilt on herself, thinking only if i have done something or talked to him, etc. She is suffering for her son and the victims. She will be feeling PG's pain along with the loss of her own son. Whether or not she can see DG in prison, it will never be the same. She LOST her son(the baby she birthed) as he used to be. She will feel like she does not even know this DG - the murderer. JMO

 

[goodasgold]

Or emotions could swing the other way for PG - she could be a relieved. Who know what kind of problems DG may have caused his family all these years, they all might've been walking on eggshells around him since his return from BC (and before). Just playing devil's advocate a bit as I've seen people like this in people's families, the troubled guy everyone dreads being around who stresses everyone out and causes problems for everyone around them their whole life.

I see your point. However, i was the PG at one time in your scenerio. My brother was troubled, hard to handle, caused a lot of problems. (did not murder any one tho). When he went to prison it was still hard because i felt as if i lost my brother. Even tho it was hard to be around him, the thought of him never seeing my kids again, never being at another family get together, the torture that he may go through in prison, was heartbreaking. My brother was never the same person when he got out as he was before he went into prison. He has passed away since then, and i always thought i would feel a little relieved but it never prepared me or taken away the pain i feel for his loss.

 

[deugirtni]

If there was no doubt about DG's innocence, there would be no decision tb made regarding a psych assessment, IMHO of course. So that one really bugs me too.

One thing that bugs me about KR's statement about a plea - that he is waiting for disclosure to determine whether or not to pursue a psychiatric assessment. If there was even an inkling that a client might not be fit to stand trial or not guilty by reason of mental defect, why would he need to wait for disclosure? Something seems off.

 

[goodasgold]

If there was no doubt about DG's innocence, there would be no decision tb made regarding a psych assessment, IMHO of course. So that one really bugs me too.

DG might be saying he is innocent but maybe the lawyer wants to see the disclosure before he gives DG the psych assessment, just in case, he sees that DG is guilty through the evidence and thinks he may be insane.

 

[deugirtni]

It sounds like you are presuming he is guilty. Why open himself to someone's opinion of mental status if innocent?

Perhaps we are referring to two different types of assessments...

I am referring to a mental fitness assessment to determine the status of his mental health and ability to aid in his own defence. Typically, a 30 day assessment that *does not* get into the nature of motivation to commit the crime in question.

http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mohltc/ppa...issions_B.aspx?openMenu=smenu_CriminalCodeAdm

Given the fact that the suspect remains on suicide watch, and has a history of mental health issues, one would think that determining his mental fitness would be crucial.

The fact that KR hasn't made this request, says to me that perhaps DG's mental health is not in as much peril as what is believed when one is on suicide watch. Furthermore, should he claim not responsible by reason of mental defect, the delay in determining mental fitness would be quite telling as a strategy rather than a fact.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Since absolutely ZERO results from the evidence gathered have been reported, what difference does the time span make?

The difference the time span makes I my mind is that obviously nothing more has come from the evidence collected on July 11th. There was a comment made on August 14th indicating "no trace", which IMO is an update to the July 11th article. IMO, it's safe to assume there was no trace of the Liknes' or NO at the Garland acreage, in any way shape or form. If there isn't any, and if LE hasn't said there is confirmed evidence now from their original collection as mentioned on July 11th, then there likely isn't any, unless LE updates their July 11th comment with a positive confirmation of the evidence collected. JMO, but you go with whatever works for you, at this point its inference and assumption. We won't know until trial for sure anyway so why continue with this point. I'm going forward with the opinion that there's "no trace"...meaning no evidence. All that choose to feel differently are free to do so.