Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #14

[otto]

Sociopaths are not illogical? Unless you have a PhD and have assessed the accused yourself, I am taking that as a grain of salt.
Honestly,... anyone can be illogical given various circumstances. I can only imagine the stress of having committed a multiple murder, not to mention the adrenaline rush.

"Illogical" is not one of the characteristics of the Antisocial Personality Disorder:

"Most of these factors are still used today to diagnose sociopaths/psychopaths and others with antisocial disorders. (Psychopathy and sociopathy are terms with an intertwined clinical history, and they are now largely used interchangeably. The DSM excludes both, in favor of antisocial personality disorder.)

•Superficial charm and good intelligence
•Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking
•Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations
•Unreliability
•Untruthfulness and insincerity
•Lack of remorse and shame
•Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior
•Poor judgment and failure to learn by experience
•Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love
•General poverty in major affective reactions
•Specific loss of insight
•Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations
•Fantastic and uninviting behavior with alcohol and sometimes without
•Suicide threats rarely carried out
•Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated
•Failure to follow any life plan"

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/how-spot-sociopath

 

[Krystine]

The parents of a 32 year old criminal have nothing to do with the information that police put on the wanted poster.

I'll take a wild guess that a 'criminal' that has used a dead person's ID for decades, would state his eye colour as different from his own for identification purposes. I have renewed my DL many times over, in several provinces, and not one motor vehicles clerk has ever checked my eye colour, or my height for accuracy.

 

[Krystine]

"Illogical" is not one of the characteristics of the Antisocial Personality Disorder:

"Most of these factors are still used today to diagnose sociopaths/psychopaths and others with antisocial disorders. (Psychopathy and sociopathy are terms with an intertwined clinical history, and they are now largely used interchangeably. The DSM excludes both, in favor of antisocial personality disorder.)
•Superficial charm and good intelligence
•Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking
•Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations
•Unreliability
•Untruthfulness and insincerity
•Lack of remorse and shame
•Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior
•Poor judgment and failure to learn by experience
•Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love
•General poverty in major affective reactions
•Specific loss of insight
•Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations
•Fantastic and uninviting behavior with alcohol and sometimes without
•Suicide threats rarely carried out
•Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated
•Failure to follow any life plan"

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/how-spot-sociopath

Sociopaths are still individuals. How are you assuming that all sociopaths have exactly the same qualities, and they are all stringently logical? Can I suggest when assessing others as sociopaths, you use the article as a guide only?

In your linked article... doesn't poor judgement = illogical?

 

[LoisLane]

I'll take a wild guess that a 'criminal' that has used a dead person's ID for decades, would state his eye colour as different from his own for identification purposes. I have renewed my DL many times over, in several provinces, and not one motor vehicles clerk has ever checked my eye colour, or my height for accuracy.

Maybe the description was to do with MH. Still if the RCMP issue a Canada wide notice why couldn't they give his exact appearance information that they would have collected when he was arrested?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

"Illogical" is not one of the characteristics of the Antisocial Personality Disorder:

"Most of these factors are still used today to diagnose sociopaths/psychopaths and others with antisocial disorders. (Psychopathy and sociopathy are terms with an intertwined clinical history, and they are now largely used interchangeably. The DSM excludes both, in favor of antisocial personality disorder.)

•Superficial charm and good intelligence
•Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking
•Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations
•Unreliability
•Untruthfulness and insincerity
•Lack of remorse and shame
•Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior
•Poor judgment and failure to learn by experience
•Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love
•General poverty in major affective reactions
•Specific loss of insight
•Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations
•Fantastic and uninviting behavior with alcohol and sometimes without
•Suicide threats rarely carried out
•Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated
•Failure to follow any life plan"

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/how-spot-sociopath

So, Otto...just for the sake of discussion...lets go through the above list and see how DG fits in.

Superficial charm and good intelligence - We've heard he has good intelligence...superficial charm seems lacking.
Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking....IMO, DG doesn't display an absence of either of these traits...obviously delusions are part of his thought process...he had a meth lab on his parents farm, and his thought process is not rational if you think you can use stolen i.d. after you've been caught with it, or that you can get away with stealing a tractor-trailer...did he think no one was going to notice? It's kind of big.
Unreliability...according to one of his employers, he was very reliable.
Untruthfulness and insincerity....Yes, DG is untruthful, that's for sure...but I don't know that we can judge him as insincere...that's really personal, maybe he was sincere even in his irrational thought? Hard to say.
Lack of remorse and shame...Well, you could look at these things both ways...1) We can't judge his internal level of remorse and shame he may have for his actions, however, 2) according to his past behavior of criminal activity...there appears to be a lack of remorse and shame because he keeps doing it over and over. That could be more of a habitual thing rather than a lack of remorse/shame trait though.
Inadequately motivated antisocial behaviour...well, it sure sounds like he is antisocial alright.
Poor judgement and failure to learn by experience ...yup, that fits.
Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love...IMO, we can't answer this one either, we have no basis for it
General poverty in major affective reactions ... I don't know about this...maybe...but he is on suicide watch so something must be affecting him pretty badly.
Specific loss of insight....Can't answer that based on what we know, IMO.
Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations...Can't answer this either because no one that knows him has stepped up and offered any insight.
Fantastic and uninviting behaviour with alcohol and sometimes without...??? Not sure what this means...lol
Suicide threats rarely carried out....We don't know if he's done this or not. He is currently on suicide watch but is this the first time or has there been past issues?
Sex life impersonal, trivial and poorly integrated....I have no clue
Failure to follow any life plan ... well, again, can't answer this...maybe his life plan is to look after the acreage and his parents...maybe his life plan is to be a drug manufacturer...so hard to say again.

IMO, DG does show some of these traits, but we can't go calling him a true "sociopath" at this point because we don't know him, and we're basing our judgements on what we think we know, which really isn't much. Truth is, many people can present any one, or several of these traits and not be a sociopath. You had posted a link on one of my posts regarding Jimmy Falon that is a Psychiatrist that exhibits and tests positively 100% for being a psychopath (now known as a sociopath), yet he has lived an exemplary life. I will repost that for you...its an extremely interesting article. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ie-Borden.html

If anyone has anything to add to this list of traits, feel free....I've only commented based on my understanding of the information we have about DG.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Maybe the description was to do with MH. Still if the RCMP issue a Canada wide notice why couldn't they give his exact appearance information that they would have collected when he was arrested?

Exactly!

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Sociopaths are still individuals. How are you assuming that all sociopaths have exactly the same qualities, and they are all stringently logical? Can I suggest when assessing others as sociopaths, you use the article as a guide only?

In your linked article... doesn't poor judgement = illogical?

I agree. In the process of diagnosing any mental illness/disorder/malfunction...the criteria does not have to be met 100%. There are guidelines as to how many traits an individual exhibits out of the list in order to determine the diagnosis.

No, not all sociopaths have the same traits, nor do all "any diagnosis" have all the same traits... but the traits that they do have come from a basic common group of traits for that illness/disorder.

 

[Krystine]

So, Otto...just for the sake of discussion...lets go through the above list and see how DG fits in.

Superficial charm and good intelligence - We've heard he has good intelligence...superficial charm seems lacking.
Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking....IMO, DG doesn't display an absence of either of these traits...obviously delusions are part of his thought process...he had a meth lab on his parents farm, and his thought process is not rational if you think you can use stolen i.d. after you've been caught with it, or that you can get away with stealing a tractor-trailer...did he think no one was going to notice? It's kind of big.
Unreliability...according to one of his employers, he was very reliable.
Untruthfulness and insincerity....Yes, DG is untruthful, that's for sure...but I don't know that we can judge him as insincere...that's really personal, maybe he was sincere even in his irrational thought? Hard to say.
Lack of remorse and shame...Well, you could look at these things both ways...1) We can't judge his internal level of remorse and shame he may have for his actions, however, 2) according to his past behavior of criminal activity...there appears to be a lack of remorse and shame because he keeps doing it over and over. That could be more of a habitual thing rather than a lack of remorse/shame trait though.
Inadequately motivated antisocial behaviour...well, it sure sounds like he is antisocial alright.
Poor judgement and failure to learn by experience ...yup, that fits.
Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love...IMO, we can't answer this one either, we have no basis for it
General poverty in major affective reactions ... I don't know about this...maybe...but he is on suicide watch so something must be affecting him pretty badly.
Specific loss of insight....Can't answer that based on what we know, IMO.
Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations...Can't answer this either because no one that knows him has stepped up and offered any insight.
Fantastic and uninviting behaviour with alcohol and sometimes without...??? Not sure what this means...lol
Suicide threats rarely carried out....We don't know if he's done this or not. He is currently on suicide watch but is this the first time or has there been past issues?
Sex life impersonal, trivial and poorly integrated....I have no clue
Failure to follow any life plan ... well, again, can't answer this...maybe his life plan is to look after the acreage and his parents...maybe his life plan is to be a drug manufacturer...so hard to say again.

IMO, DG does show some of these traits, but we can't go calling him a true "sociopath" at this point because we don't know him, and we're basing our judgements on what we think we know, which really isn't much. Truth is, many people can present any one, or several of these traits and not be a sociopath. You had posted a link on one of my posts regarding Jimmy Falon that is a Psychiatrist that exhibits and tests positively 100% for being a psychopath (now known as a sociopath), yet he has lived an exemplary life. I will repost that for you...its an extremely interesting article. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ie-Borden.html

If anyone has anything to add to this list of traits, feel free....I've only commented based on my understanding of the information we have about DG.

And then, (at the risk of sounding old fashioned, or religious)...sometimes there is just evil.

 

[otto]

Sociopaths are still individuals. How are you assuming that all sociopaths have exactly the same qualities, and they are all stringently logical? Can I suggest when assessing others as sociopaths, you use the article as a guide only?

In your linked article... doesn't poor judgement = illogical?

Sociopath is a recognized, defined term. There are characteristics that define the sociopath. The definition of a sociopath does not include the characteristic of: illogical. I really don't know how else to explain it. I don't really understand where there is a misunderstanding either.

 

[Coldpizza]

A rule of thumb we have around here is "address the post and not the poster". Please keep this in mind when you are quoting a post.

Thank you all

 

[otto]

So, Otto...just for the sake of discussion...lets go through the above list and see how DG fits in.

Superficial charm and good intelligence - We've heard he has good intelligence...superficial charm seems lacking.
Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking....IMO, DG doesn't display an absence of either of these traits...obviously delusions are part of his thought process...he had a meth lab on his parents farm, and his thought process is not rational if you think you can use stolen i.d. after you've been caught with it, or that you can get away with stealing a tractor-trailer...did he think no one was going to notice? It's kind of big.
Unreliability...according to one of his employers, he was very reliable.
Untruthfulness and insincerity....Yes, DG is untruthful, that's for sure...but I don't know that we can judge him as insincere...that's really personal, maybe he was sincere even in his irrational thought? Hard to say.
Lack of remorse and shame...Well, you could look at these things both ways...1) We can't judge his internal level of remorse and shame he may have for his actions, however, 2) according to his past behavior of criminal activity...there appears to be a lack of remorse and shame because he keeps doing it over and over. That could be more of a habitual thing rather than a lack of remorse/shame trait though.
Inadequately motivated antisocial behaviour...well, it sure sounds like he is antisocial alright.
Poor judgement and failure to learn by experience ...yup, that fits.
Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love...IMO, we can't answer this one either, we have no basis for it
General poverty in major affective reactions ... I don't know about this...maybe...but he is on suicide watch so something must be affecting him pretty badly.
Specific loss of insight....Can't answer that based on what we know, IMO.
Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations...Can't answer this either because no one that knows him has stepped up and offered any insight.
Fantastic and uninviting behaviour with alcohol and sometimes without...??? Not sure what this means...lol
Suicide threats rarely carried out....We don't know if he's done this or not. He is currently on suicide watch but is this the first time or has there been past issues?
Sex life impersonal, trivial and poorly integrated....I have no clue
Failure to follow any life plan ... well, again, can't answer this...maybe his life plan is to look after the acreage and his parents...maybe his life plan is to be a drug manufacturer...so hard to say again.

IMO, DG does show some of these traits, but we can't go calling him a true "sociopath" at this point because we don't know him, and we're basing our judgements on what we think we know, which really isn't much. Truth is, many people can present any one, or several of these traits and not be a sociopath. You had posted a link on one of my posts regarding Jimmy Falon that is a Psychiatrist that exhibits and tests positively 100% for being a psychopath (now known as a sociopath), yet he has lived an exemplary life. I will repost that for you...its an extremely interesting article. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ie-Borden.html

If anyone has anything to add to this list of traits, feel free....I've only commented based on my understanding of the information we have about DG.

I think the best way to understand Antisocial Personality Disorder (includes sociopath) is to research it. There, it is clarified that there are several characteristics that define the sociopathic personality, and stipulated that it is not necessary to have all of the characteristics in order to be classified as a sociopath. It is assumed to be understood that sociopaths may have characteristics that are not part of the description of a sociopath, but that is not relevant to the classification of the sociopath ... only the identified characteristics are relevant. There is not a distinction of "true" sociopath, and other sociopath, the classification is sociopath, or not sociopath. In researching sociopaths, it will also become clear that many sociopaths are not criminals. Some sociopaths commit murder, some don't.

 

[deugirtni]

Am I doing this search wrong for the conversion from 180cm to inches? On 2 diff places, I get: 70.8661417 inches, which, is 60 inches is 5 feet (isn't that correct?), then wouldn't that be close to 5'11"? Somehow that has got to be wrong.. he looked much shorter and smaller in the photograph when he got arrested at the airport years ago, and also according to Cherchri's real-life account. I wonder where the people get their info for the wanted posters?

Oh...I see! Alright, but they're all incorrect, no matter the source. DG has brown eyes I believe, not blue, unless he was wearing colored contact lenses at the time. Currently he has brown eyes...his height was 180 cm ... 5'9" at that time (he may have shrunk a wee bit since then...since he's a little older)...and he looks like he's a little more toned now so he's likely lost some weight since then, not to mention we lose muscle tone in our faces a bit as we age. So...I think the fellow in the posters and the one that LE have are the same guy, so we're good! Right?

 

[deugirtni]

Very true. I guess 'wanted' posters are created with self-professed information? Don't they measure and weigh and print these people when they arrest them?

I'll take a wild guess that a 'criminal' that has used a dead person's ID for decades, would state his eye colour as different from his own for identification purposes. I have renewed my DL many times over, in several provinces, and not one motor vehicles clerk has ever checked my eye colour, or my height for accuracy.

 

[Krystine]

I think the best way to understand Antisocial Personality Disorder (includes sociopath) is to research it. There, it is clarified that there are several characteristics that define the sociopathic personality, and stipulated that it is not necessary to have all of the characteristics in order to be classified as a sociopath. It is assumed to be understood that sociopaths may have characteristics that are not part of the description of a sociopath, but that is not relevant to the classification of the sociopath ... only the identified characteristics are relevant. There is not a distinction of "true" sociopath, and other sociopath, the classification is sociopath, or not sociopath. In researching sociopaths, it will also become clear that many sociopaths are not criminals. Some sociopaths commit murder, some don't.

"Sociopaths are not illogical".
That was the statement I was responding to. My apologies, but absolutes in conversation and debate among non professionals tend to make me bristle.
Can I point out again, the link provided by the poster states..."poor judgement" as a characteristic. To a lot of people, that translates as "illogical".

 

[Krystine]

Very true. I guess 'wanted' posters are created with self-professed information? Don't they measure and weigh and print these people when they arrest them?

I was guessing, I'm not positive. I'm sure there are LE people that are not dedicated to accuracy, as there are in every workplace.

 

[deugirtni]

Ain't *that* the truth.

I was guessing, I'm not positive. I'm sure there are LE people that are not dedicated to accuracy, as there are in every workplace.

 

[otto]

"Sociopaths are not illogical".
That was the statement I was responding to. My apologies, but absolutes in conversation and debate among non professionals tend to make me bristle.
Can I point out again, the link provided by the poster states..."poor judgement" as a characteristic. To a lot of people, that translates as "illogical".

The clinical definition for antisocial personality disorder can be found here:

DSM-IV and DSM-5 Criteria for the Personality Disorders (pgs 2-4)

Antisocial Personality Disorder
DSM-IV Criteria

"A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following: having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing.

B. The individual is at least age 18 years.

C. There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.

D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode."

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/car...ica_tr_personalidad_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

 

[otto]

DSM-5 Criteria - Revised April 2012

The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits. To diagnose antisocial personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:

A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:

1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):
a. Identity: Ego-centrism; self-esteem derived from personal gain, power, or pleasure.
b. Self-direction: Goal-setting based on personal gratification; absence of prosocial internal standards associated with failure to conform to lawful or culturally normative ethical behavior.

AND

2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
a. Empathy: Lack of concern for feelings, needs, or suffering of others; lack of remorse after hurting or mistreating another.
b. Intimacy: Incapacity for mutually intimate relationships, as exploitation is a primary means of relating to others, including by deceit and coercion; use of dominance or intimidation to control others.

B. Pathological personality traits in the following domains:

1. Antagonism, characterized by:

a. Manipulativeness: Frequent use of subterfuge to influence or control others; use of seduction, charm, glibness, or ingratiation to achieve one„s ends.

b. Deceitfulness: Dishonesty and fraudulence; misrepresentation of self; embellishment or fabrication when relating events.

c. Callousness: Lack of concern for feelings or problems of others; lack of guilt or remorse about the negative or harmful effects of one„s actions on others; aggression; sadism.

d. Hostility: Persistent or frequent angry feelings; anger or irritability in response to minor slights and insults; mean, nasty, or vengeful behavior.

2. Disinhibition, characterized by:

a. Irresponsibility: Disregard for – and failure to honor – financial and other obligations or commitments; lack of respect for – and lack of follow through on – agreements and promises.

b. Impulsivity: Acting on the spur of the moment in response to immediate stimuli; acting on a momentary basis without a plan or consideration of outcomes; difficulty establishing and following plans.

c. Risk taking: Engagement in dangerous, risky, and potentially self-damaging activities, unnecessarily and without regard for consequences; boredom proneness and thoughtless initiation of activities to counter boredom; lack of concern for one„s limitations and denial of the reality of personal danger

C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual‟s personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.

D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual‟s personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual‟s developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.

E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual‟s personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma).

F. The individual is at least age 18 years.

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/car...ica_tr_personalidad_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

 

[Krystine]

The clinical definition for antisocial personality disorder can be found here:

DSM-IV and DSM-5 Criteria for the Personality Disorders (pgs 2-4)

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/car...ica_tr_personalidad_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

Okay. Lots and lots of words, but none that back up the statement made earlier about sociopaths being completely logical...or sociopaths not being illogical. It's a small argument to debate any further, I'm out...

 

[Krystine]

It seems to me that before we speculate that the accused drove 10+ hours, one way, with three bodies in the back of a pick up truck, there should be a basis for the belief. How does the place where he lived 15 years ago make it a good place to hide three bodies given that there are so many better places closer to home? Is it wild speculation, or is there something to go on?

How does a teenage party spot from the 1970's provide a solid theory for a body dump?