Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #14

[Krystine]

http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2328439&Language=E&Mode=1&File=19

(d) whether providing relocation and protection will interfere with the relationship between a child who will be relocated, and a parent who will not be relocated; and


This is a link that talks about the WP program and from the line above i assume there have been cases where a child has been relocated without the parents.

What other posters and moderator are trying to say, I think, is that they acknowledge the program exists and that children are eligible, even without parents. The whole WPP document has been Googled up and presented here. But it doesn't fit the circumstances of this case.

 

[goodasgold]

Again i am not saying this is set in stone. WP is just a theory like all the other theories because WE do not know the evidence either way. We just know LE has some. I also have theories with the murder of all three....i can swing both ways here. lol. I do not see how this is any more bizzare then DG cutting the bodies apart and dissolving them in acid and burning them into ash and i do not see people picking that theory apart. There is no evidence of them being dissolved and burned just like no evidence NO is alive. All they are is theories because we know little to nothing on this case. JMO

 

[winnnancy]

Wonder if the defense has skimmed through the disclosed info and his preliminary thoughts and if he's made a visit to his client

 

[otto]

If the accused is also responsible for Helena, I'm of the opinion that the Liknes/Obrien victims are in a similar area.

Does anyone remember the pattern of serial killers ... do subsequent bodies get closer to home, or farther away from home?

 

[Slebby]

What if LE has uncovered more murders by DG which we have not been told about?

Even if this were the case I don't see how falsely charging him with a murder that didn't actually happen, thus violating his rights aids in prosecuting other murders he may have committed?

IMHO

 

[otto]

http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2328439&Language=E&Mode=1&File=19

(d) whether providing relocation and protection will interfere with the relationship between a child who will be relocated, and a parent who will not be relocated; and

This is a link that talks about the WP program and from the line above i assume there have been cases where a child has been relocated without the parents.

We are talking about a five year old child that was a victim during a mass murder. The person accused of the mass murder is in jail. He is no longer a threat to anyone.

I don't believe that the clause refers to a five year old child being taken away from his parents and given a new identity to live with another family in some other part of the country. I assume that this relates to a child of divorce, for example, where the child will be relocated with one parent and the other parent is not part of the relocation and new identity.

 

[otto]

This one is a different country but still gives ideas for WP and faking deaths

http://rt.com/news/prime-time/police-bury-important-witnesses/

This could explain the private court room for certain family members

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/guide/secf.html
Someone mentioned they would never use a 5 year old testimony

http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/ovss/whats_my_job_in_court.asp

Looks like they do use kids under 6 as witnesses

There is a table in this PDF that lists costs and stats of WP in Canada called Table 1

http://publications.gc.ca/site/arch...ons/collection_2008/parl/XC76-392-1-1-01E.pdf

Coroners and WP will work together in certain cases

http://vancouver.ca/police/organiza...ive-services/major-crime/missing-persons.html

During the August 14 hearing, there was no private courtroom for anyone. Nathan's parents and uncle were at the courthouse and they left without attending the proceedings after learning that it was a simple, 2 minute, scheduling hearing.

 

[otto]

What other posters and moderator are trying to say, I think, is that they acknowledge the program exists and that children are eligible, even without parents. The whole WPP document has been Googled up and presented here. But it doesn't fit the circumstances of this case.

All I can think is: on what planet would a mother part with her five year old child so police could prosecute a man that is sitting in jail? If Nathan was alive and someone was threatening his life, his entire family would be relocated, not just the five year old

 

[Slebby]

All I can think is: on what planet would a mother part with her five year old child so police could prosecute a man that is sitting in jail? If Nathan was alive and someone was threatening his life, his entire family would be relocated, not just the five year old

I agree. And a 5 year old child who was taken from the care of his parents and siblings for 8 weeks and counting - I can't even imagine how upsetting that would be for the child. What a horrible situation for a child to suffer. What really is gained?

And how far does the charade go? To the point where DG is convicted of 3 murders, one of which supposedly never happened? Is the child ever restored to his rightful home with his family in Calgary?

And I still ask: how is DG fooled by this charade? If he didn't kill NO, he would know he did not kill the child, make sense?

I agree we are all entitled to opinions but I also believe all opinions or theories that are posted will face the scrutiny of critical thinkers and hopefully opposition to these theories will not be taken personally.

This theory makes no sense. I have given many well considered reasons why I believe it makes no sense.

IMHO

 

[deugirtni]

I think it is common for LE to ask for help from land owners to have a look around their properties, and in their wells, etc., since there are likely many properties with wells in the general area? I know in the Victoria Stafford case, they were asking the same thing. They aren't asking for people to look in the waterways because the people don't own the waterways, ie they aren't asking people to look outside of their properties on others' properties, or on public lands and waterways. It only makes sense that the bodies could be in the water somewhere, and I'm sure anyone finding bodies or parts of bodies would be sure to report such a finding to LE without LE having to ask. With bodies in water, unless they are somehow very well weighed down, there is always the likelihood of them showing up at some point somewhere.

Regarding LE having the public look (or not look) for bodies, I would think that would be very closely tied in with potential issues regarding contamination of evidence, and they already had swarms of police looking in the areas which they thought most likely. With public looking, wouldnt' they then have to worry about the possibility of not only contaminated evidence, but also planted evidence? ie the 'real perp' takes part in the search, and plants something to take them off of his own track? Imho, it would be too easy for defence to make claims of contamined evidence and have that evidence be dismissed and LE is going to risk none of that if they can at all help it.

Has anyone heard of a (public) search for bodies? I have heard of community searches for 'missing' people, people not yet confirmed dead.. but I do not recall hearing ever of a search for 'dead bodies or body parts'? Also, if the public were to search and then to find something, the details (and their various morphs and embellishments) would be broadcast widespread, and LE would not be able to control what information was released?

All MOO.

No, we don't know where they are looking, but if they ask the public to look at well sites, farms, and fields, we can safely assume something in the evidence at that time, lead them to make that specific a request.

Unless, of course, it's all a clever ruse to throw off the real perps in order to protect their star witness, who just happens to be one of the victims secretly being kept in witness protection. I prefer to interpret facts, based on probabilities and likelihoods though...

I suspect if LE started searching lakes and rivers with divers over and over, we'd know about it. Just like we found out about the investigation in Mexico...

 

[deugirtni]

Just a question....
Regarding those photos with the staining on the cement at the side door leading some 25 feet to the driveway.. which side of the house is that sidewalk on when you are facing the house?

 

[deugirtni]

Sorry fellow WS'ers, I have been away and generally unable to post, although I HAVE tried my best to keep up with the reading.

I just wanted to make a few points, or post a few thoughts:

-at some point recently there was conversation regarding DG potentially still being involved with 'meth' (someone posted behaviors associated with different levels of use).. and I just wanted to state that IMO he doesn't 'look' like a typical meth addict. IMO, they have a 'look' about them, gaunt face, very thin... IMO, DG just doesn't have that look. IMO once you've seen a few addicts, it's kind of easy to pick them out. Prove me wrong.

-someone made a point recently which made me think about something and I wanted to respond, but I think the thread was closed by then, and I could not (and I couldn't figure out WHY I could not) respond; I kept signing in and out to see what the hay was going on.. then realized later that the thread was already closed because I was a bit behind in reading!.. anyhoo.. regarding the impersonation.. false identity.. new charges.. etc... at the time when DG was operating in BC as that other person (Matthew?) and he was working as a 'chemical mixer'.. I was wondering if (please first understand that I don't even think DG did the crime until I hear of evidence more substantial than that he owns a green truck that was seen in the area a few times during the time the people went missing, but I am just making suggestions for tearing apart by fellow WS'ers!) he possibly could have placed an 'order' for 'supplies', using his past credentials ('new' impersonation charges?) along the lines of some kind of 'chemicals' with perhaps vendors he used to deal with.. who therefore may not have questioned his identity (perhaps the vendors were not aware of his past in that regard??).. and therefore he may have had access to things which Joe Blow may have a difficult time purchasing?

 

[LoriMcA]

Just a question....
Regarding those photos with the staining on the cement at the side door leading some 25 feet to the driveway.. which side of the house is that sidewalk on when you are facing the house?

The sidewalk along the house is on the left (east) if you are facing the house from the street.

 

[deugirtni]

IMO I think the 2 photos are taken from different angles and so the blue article cannot be seen from the second photo.. I was just wondering where the family is congregating in relation to the staining leading to the driveway.. I would think it would be gruesome to be sitting around in an area where your murdered loved ones were dragged to, and I find that curious, ie why not sit on the steps or the grass?

ldbd
Registered User

http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_r...366&quality=85
What is the light blue article on the ground to the right of JO?
When JO goes into the home with LE it is no longer there.
http://www.thestarphoenix.com/news/c...?size=620x400s

Last edited by ldbd; Yesterday at 06:10 PM. Reason: larger picture of blue item

 

[deugirtni]

Thank you LoriMcA, that is what I thought.. and that side of the house is the side on which the neighbouring house is vacant, correct?

The sidewalk along the house is on the left (east) if you are facing the house from the street.

 

[deugirtni]

Regarding your point about the potential missing object from the L residence.. and LE perhaps not knowing for certain whether said item was sold to a shopper or taken by the accused.. it could have been any item, and not just necessarily an item used as a weapon. If LE had found any item on DG's property which was known (from KO) to be gone from the L residence, that would be potential proof that he had actually been in attendance at the sale (or afterwards).

YYC Lady
Registered User

Quote Originally Posted by deugirtni View Post
Is this known to have happened or hypothetical?

Otto can correct me if wrong, but I think he's referring to the new home being built down the street from the L home as the construction site (it was that home that had the cameras that captured green truck)

Also, I'm wondering if there's an object from the home that's missing that could've been used in a bludgeoning type attack (hence the need for people who had been to estate sale to come forward to ensure it wasn't a purchased item and for the comment from the CPS media guy saying they are looking for specific item(s).) with all the focus on the slough on the acreage, I was curious if perhaps they maybe found such an object (thus tying him to the L home?) but need the bodies to prove it was used as such?

 

[deugirtni]

Regarding the apparent bedding which was removed from a public landfill by LE.. I saw a photo of an officer carrying what appeared to be a comforter/blanket in a clear plastic bag. I don't see any evidence of any blood or gore though. Is there a reason why some items of evidence would be placed in paper bags and some in plastic bags? Just curious.

 

[LoisLane]

[modsnip]

Hi Goodasgold,
First, I am truly sorry that you have endured so much pain this year, I can not even comprehend the pain. I too am trying to understand the tact of fellow sleuthers on this site, I feel certain contributors are losing the professional mannerisms they demonstrated earlier in the various threads. It is disheartening. Possibly the stress and attention spent on this site is taking it's toll on various users. I certainly have been deeply affected by this forum and in a way wish I never involved myself and just stuck to the newspapers. I know you are committed to this family and I encourage you to keep thinking and contributing your ideas, if anything it engages more ideas and there is no such thing as a useless question. I would also take this moment to encourage fellow sleuthers who may have issue with certain ideas and questions to check your ego. If can not fathom a suggestion, post or question, you need to work harder at ignoring it and move on to something that you feel you can understand and relate better with instead of feeding the fire. Take care goodasgold, I hope to read more of your comments in the future.

 

[LoriMcA]

If the accused is also responsible for Helena, I'm of the opinion that the Liknes/Obrien victims are in a similar area.

Does anyone remember the pattern of serial killers ... do subsequent bodies get closer to home, or farther away from home?

^^rsbm

While I was trying to find information about spatial behaviours of serial killers *still looking*...I found this very interesting article ...I found particularly interesting the classification of 'organized' vs 'unorganized'...

This sentence & the lengthy description following it explains very well how they 'classify':

"Organized vs. Disorganized. There are several typologies of serial killers. Ressler, Burgess, and Douglas viewed them either as "organized" or "disorganized" based on crime scene information......"

"Some killers have qualities of both types, such as Jack the Ripper, who operated in 1888 in Whitechapel, the east end of London."

Some of his behaviours seem so planned out...yet some things overlooked ...ie...cctv...


http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Serial_Killers.aspx


I haven't read the entire article as yet...still reading...so I don't know if it addresses your question further on...for that I do apologize otto, as it doesn't really answer what you were asking does it?

I thought it an interesting read nonetheless...and John Douglas...well his name says it all to me anyways IMO

Thank you LoriMcA, that is what I thought.. and that side of the house is the side on which the neighbouring house is vacant, correct?

I do believe so, yes...


Just a side note...woohoo...figured out the multiquote! :happydance: *to defend myself...I had not posted a lot until this case despite being a somewhat 'lurker' for 6 years*L* At one time I was very quiet!

 

[otto]

Just a question....
Regarding those photos with the staining on the cement at the side door leading some 25 feet to the driveway.. which side of the house is that sidewalk on when you are facing the house?

Left.