Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #14

[otto]

I have asked myself the very same questions. I am not knowledgeable or experienced enough in the legal side to know if such misleading behavior would be illegal/unethical.

One thing that did get me thinking--perhaps LE discouraged the civilian searches for this very reason--there was nothing left to be found. However, I fully admit that I think it more probably that the former officer I am speaking of was perhaps speculating or had heard a rumor and taken it to be fact. I am, however, somewhat surprised at just the lack of information...it might be just me, but it seems like, with most other cases, such as Tori Stafford for instance, there are usually updates given on searches taking place, speculative theories etc... but the only news I have noted regarding the case is that LE expanded the investigation into Mexico which is very old news at this point...

A retired CPS officer should not be given details about an on-going investigation, but he probably has good insights into the information that has been released.

Regarding the release of investigative information that was forthcoming while Victoria Stafford was missing ... and until the arrest ... that is also true in this case. Information was released until the arrest. The search took much longer with Tory Stafford, but the details of the kidnapping, the complicity, the violence, and the pre-meditation were not released until trial. Everything is the same as this case ... requests for help from the public until there is an arrest, then nothing until trial.

 

[stan laurel]

The hazmat suit photo is from the first crime scene: Parkhill residence. The chemicals would kill the bacteria, then whatever is put into the septic tank would not break down ... what was in the tank would stop breaking down ... the bacteria needs to build up again.

Maybe DG was going to have the tanks pumped out for pre winter maintenance.

 

[stan laurel]

If the photo of the truck is taken at 4AM, then he had already disposed of the bodies before he went home that early June 30. He had a couple of hours - perhaps he put them an hour away (how far is Brooks?) ... and the photo was taken because he returned to hose down the sidewalk and clean up ... leaving with an empty truckbed. Alternatively, the photo was taken closer to 10PM (when it's not entirely dark) and the bodies could be anywhere.

One can do two hours to Brooks if you take 22x past Gleichen and travel the local speed limit of 120 thru 140 KMH,, realistically about a 5 hour round trip if you have things to do.

 

[stan laurel]

take cherchi's theory of lye, add my and others theory of an off the acreage grave and have it that it's a pre-dug spot lined with a heavy 5mm guage plastic and tarp. dump the bodies, pour in your chemical, cover with more poly and tarp, cover with top soil and leave. If done in an area that won't get tilled...

 

[otto]

Today I went back to the timeline about DG. Thanks so much to sillybilly for providing it. For some reason I had pictured DG going to work in BC after he left university. Then I realized he was 32 years old when he went out there when they found the meth lab in 1992. So from age 20 to 32 did he make his money off drugs? What did he do to get prohibited weapons charges in 1998 and an assault charge in 1989. Did he still live with his parents then?

So he worked in BC until he was 39, then in trouble again with another weapons charge and the stealing of the tractor-trailer unit. Then he goes to jail and is out in 2000 so now he is 40. Did he come back and live with his parents then for the next 14 years? Did he work at all in that time? Forty acres isn't much to make a living on for two families. Must be why he drove such an old truck.

He does seem a bit of a mystery man. I hope they can check his tax records for income or is it like he didn't really exist so didn't need much of anything. I wonder if he did rent motels for the shadier side of his life. It is like he lived under the radar.

I just wonder if he was furious at the L family for something more than a patent that didn't work. Maybe the answer did lie in Mexico.

I think the answer lies in the video media report that the Mazatlan property was jointly owned by Garland and Liknes. Which Garland would have money to invest in the property?

If the answer is the parents - why would people in their 80s suddenly buy a Mexico retirement apartment? At that age, they should remain close to home purely for health care reasons, ... and if the answer is Garland's sibling; Alvin's wife, why would it be a priority for a young family to invest in a retirement home for in-laws? I think the problem is in that nest.

 

[otto]

If true, I wonder if added charges such as indignity to a human body (or something to that effect) will be brought about at some point.

I doubt it. First degree murder is a charge with a lifelong sentence. Parole is possible, but the sentence doesn't go away.

I think that in the US, the extra charge would be made because US sentences can be hundreds of years in length - well past a natural life. In Canada, the extra charge would make no difference to the sentence for a first degree murder charge (a conviction sentence wouldn't be added on in terms of years in jail), and if the accused was found not guilty, chances are there was no indignity to the body.

 

[otto]

It all depends on your definition of body. If they found charred remains of a finger, do they say they have recovered a body, or do they say they are still looking for a body... like they are doing now...

Fingers can be cut off, so in that sense it is not a body. If it looks like a finger, and can be identified as a finger, should police report that partial remains have been located? Who is going to bury a finger and believe that someone is deceased?

Something has been found to confirm that all three victims are deceased. One would assume that means some tissue where a person is no longer living without that tissue. Blood volume for stating that all three victims are deceased seems a little controversial, so I think it must be tissue.

 

[otto]

If it were an advanced Septic system (very likely), the fats/oils and floating residue would be caught up in the grease trap which is on average about 5 gallons. So the question is, how much fatty/tissue/oil remain from a full grown adult after the body has gassed off and/or become h2o?

The house was built in 1973 or 74, wasn't it? The septic system is from the time that the house was built. That would mean that the septic tank and field are forty years old. A septic tank from that time will seize if the bacteria is destroyed with household, or dangerous, chemicals, such as sodium hydroxide.

Why isn't Quick Lime discussed?

 

[CentralAlberta]

The house was built in 1973 or 74, wasn't it? The septic system is from the time that the house was built. That would mean that the septic tank and field are forty years old. A septic tank from that time will seize if the bacteria is destroyed with household, or dangerous, chemicals, such as sodium hydroxide.


Why isn't Quick Lime discussed?

MAYBE a new modern septic system was recently put in and the OLD one is where the liquified bodies were put. How long does a septic system last? I have heard of old ones being replaced but don't know how old old is.

 

[stan laurel]

The house was built in 1973 or 74, wasn't it? The septic system is from the time that the house was built. That would mean that the septic tank and field are forty years old. A septic tank from that time will seize if the bacteria is destroyed with household, or dangerous, chemicals, such as sodium hydroxide.

Why isn't Quick Lime discussed?

People do upgrades to their systems and when you do a pump out now you can have a full cleaning/pressure cleaning and then reintroduce bacteria before you flush. Just because it was built in the 60's it doesn't mean additions to the system weren't put in place over the years,, grease traps inline have been around a long time, there are now grease traps specific to dishwashers that can be installed in a couple of hours. Looking at the overhead pics of the farm I think the field is under the area where the ginormous satellite dish sits.

 

[otto]

One totally uneducated question about the potential to dissolve the bodies with lye - please bear with me.

We know from posts made here by Cherchi and others that lye can be used to dissolve a body and that DNA evidence would be destroyed. But, could the perp fail in his bid to eliminate the bodies if he failed to use an adequate volume of lye to dissolve the remains?

We can assume that all the remains would be gone if a ton of lye was used. Presumably the remains would not be totally dissolved if only, say, 1 pound of lye was used. There must be an adequate volume (or weight, not actually sure if lye is liquid or solid) used in order to dissolve all the remains totally.

What if DG used lye but didn't use enough? Which might be possible if he had an unexpected need to dispose of an extra body. Is it possible he thought he had completely eliminated the evidence but actually didn't?

IMHO

How much sodium hydroxide was needed to dissolve three bodies, where did he buy it, and where did he use it ... where are the barrels that were sealed, how were they sealed, where they left on the property after being used to liquefy bodies? How long does it take to liquefy bodies in barrels without pressurization? What happens to the brown stuff that is left behind if it is not poured down the bathtub drain? If the bones are crushed, what is done with that dust?

Is lye sold by weight or volume? Volume?

 

[otto]

Yes another icky job I've had,,,

don't use dead cats/animals to create bacteria,, firstly, it's the wrong kind of bacteria and secondly, the kitties/puppies little bones might clog the lines to the septic field. You can reverse blast a field via line caps but only do this if you hate your spouse, and don't have dinner by candlelight during a steam blast.

always use a powdered bacteria but don't overkill the system with it,, half a cup every two weeks with septonic is plenty.

never ever use grease enzymes to break down grease,, the new grease form will pass to the lines/field but just like some creepy alien in a B-flick, the grease will reconstitute itself in a string like manner and grow in the water that's doing it's thing underground and in the pipes.

65% of los angeles sewer pipes built before 1970 have so much grease that only veins of more viscous liquid can sort of get thru the pipes.

think of this when you have your next BLT with extra bacon,, then think of your heart and your gastro bits and your brain.

bon appetite!!! For the mericans browsing this thread, canucks speak French, poorly.

Well maintained septic tanks don't require any additives. If the system is broken, and it's backed up, it needs to be fixed ... there's no waiting two weeks for the next treatment.

 

[stan laurel]

MAYBE a new modern septic system was recently put in and the OLD one is where the liquified bodies were put. How long does a septic system last? I have heard of old ones being replaced but don't know how old old is.

Looking at the property from helicopter pics, if a new system was put in they would have likely used the original field,, swapping out a fiberglass tank for a newer plastic tank isn't a big deal, question is, if that one was left in ground, where are the caps to it and did they soil/sand fill it? Sometimes the field pipes collapse but I don't see ground disturbance for a replacement. One system - industrial - I worked on built a standby field in case of a future collapse. Here's the creepy bit,, though the standby was put in place twenty years earlier and never used, running a camera into the system showed many thriving albino spiders and other crawly leggy things living there. We figured the spiders got there when the pipes were laid but not yet covered. Quite shocking a sight on the monitor.

 

[YYC Lady]

I doubt it. First degree murder is a charge with a lifelong sentence. Parole is possible, but the sentence doesn't go away.

I think that in the US, the extra charge would be made because US sentences can be hundreds of years in length - well past a natural life. In Canada, the extra charge would make no difference to the sentence for a first degree murder charge (a conviction sentence wouldn't be added on in terms of years in jail), and if the accused was found not guilty, chances are there was no indignity to the body.

Fair enough. I only wondered as I remembered a case of a missing woman near Edmonton, where her common law husband was eventually charged and once they found her remains that charge was included. (http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/07/...-husband-in-slaying-of-northern-alberta-woman) I would be curious why they would add that in some cases but not others?

I find this case so disturbing, and even moreso since NO was involved. :-(

 

[otto]

Maybe DG was going to have the tanks pumped out for pre winter maintenance.

Was he that confident that he wouldn't be caught?

... so he wasn't trying to get caught?

Who pumps out a septic tank as part of pre-winter maintenance?

 

[stan laurel]

Well maintained septic tanks don't require any additives. If the system is broken, and it's backed up, it needs to be fixed ... there's no waiting two weeks for the next treatment.

No they don't, but not all maintenance on industrial/commercial systems is properly maintained and that's where things start to fail,, so in come the pump trucks and pressure washers and steam to break down the top layer of grease that has cloggedd/seize the aerator because the bacteria relies on oxygen to do it's anaerobic digesting.

In this case we're talking DG being the maintenance fellow who is going to request a full flush and pressure cleaning and reintroduce bacteria to prime the system to normal before his parents come home.

 

[stan laurel]

Was he that confident that he wouldn't be caught?

... so he wasn't trying to get caught?

Who pumps out a septic tank as part of pre-winter maintenance?

Lots of people do because it's easier to be prepared and clean to-go in the summer rather than having a problem when it's minus 30 and your snow covered. Can you deal with no plumbing for a day when it's summer and you can bugger off in your RV till it's finished or do you want to sit around in your house in winter with your throne out of service.

 

[otto]

One can do two hours to Brooks if you take 22x past Gleichen and travel the local speed limit of 120 thru 140 KMH,, realistically about a 5 hour round trip if you have things to do.

I'll post a map of crime scene 1 to Brooks. He might have had some drug connections to Brooks in those missing years. He also rented a space in Crossfield at the time of the drug arrest. He was convicted of trafficking even though he was not charged with having drugs ... meth cook conviction. Is that within a two hour round trip, and still close enough to home, with enough time to go back to hose down the area?

 

[stan laurel]

How much sodium hydroxide was needed to dissolve three bodies, where did he buy it, and where did he use it ... where are the barrels that were sealed, how were they sealed, where they left on the property after being used to liquefy bodies? How long does it take to liquefy bodies in barrels without pressurization? What happens to the brown stuff that is left behind if it is not poured down the bathtub drain? If the bones are crushed, what is done with that dust?

Is lye sold by weight or volume? Volume?

who said the barrels were ready to go on the property, maybe they were submerged and ready elsewhere.

 

[stan laurel]

I'll post a map of crime scene 1 to Brooks. He might have had some drug connections to Brooks in those missing years. He also rented a space in Crossfield at the time of the drug arrest. He was convicted of trafficking even though he was not charged with having drugs ... meth cook conviction. Is that within a two hour round trip, and still close enough to home, with enough time to go back to hose down the area?

too far for that night, but the next day sure. but once again, he had to leave the bodies somewhere after the first trip.