Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #15

[otto]

I'm guessing here and being hypothetical, but I'm thinking if DG used fake ID (maybe MHs) even to purchase anything to do with the murder it can be considered connected.

Maybe if he had to show a DL for something (to use a landfill?) or if he had a credit card in the name of MH and purchased something used in the murder (even something as simple as purchasing garbage bags that LE have tied to the crime, etc.) maybe these types of things classify as being connected evidence.

Absolutely, the false identity documents can probably be connected with purchases Garland made, and those purchases may be connected with committing the murder. Because charges have been laid, and stayed, that evidence can be presented, and he could be found guilty of the lesser charge of identity theft.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

In what way are illegal drug activities related to the murder? How are Alvin, Kathryn, and Nathan connected with illegal drugs?

Whatever motive there is for the murder will be related to the relationship between the accused and the victims ... so unless there's a drug connection, drugs cannot be mentioned during trial.

I don't want to insinuate the victims were connected with drugs but there may be a connection somehow in a money trail that might have stemmed in different directions and some money might've led to someone involved in the drug trade.

I knew of a successful business man who owned two of a town's three successful drinking establishments (almost a monopoly) and his wife was his bookkeeper/accountant and he had two young children (I believe they went to private school). No one had a clue his secondary income was from drug involvement, and he was very hands off, very distanced. Most people who knew turned a blind eye, didn't want to know or be involved.

So you never really know who in your community is involved in these kinds of things. Again, not implying the Liknes' were, but they may have known or been tied to/involved with another successful 'clean on the outside' business person who was. (BBM)

 

[otto]

I don't want to insinuate the victims were connected with drugs but there may be a connection somehow in a money trail that might have stemmed in different directions and some money might've led to someone involved in the drug trade.

I knew of a successful business man who owned two of a town's three successful drinking establishments (almost a monopoly) and his wife was his bookkeeper/accountant and he had two young children (I believe they went to private school). No one had a clue his secondary income was from drug involvement, and he was very hands off, very distanced. Most people who knew turned a blind eye, didn't want to know or be involved.

So you never really know who in your community is involved in these kinds of things. Again, not implying the Liknes' were, but they may have known or been tied to/involved with another successful 'clean on the outside' business person who was. (BBM)

It has been implied that there was a bad business deal between two of the victims and the accused. One source of conflict is the patent design work completed by the accused, and the other could be related to the recent joint Liknes/Garland purchase of a condo in Mazatlan. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that there is a drug connection. Without a link making that connection, discussion would be based on pure fiction and could damage the reputations of the victims and accused.

 

[LoisLane]

It has been implied that there was a bad business deal between two of the victims and the accused. One source of conflict is the patent design work completed by the accused, and the other could be related to the recent joint Liknes/Garland purchase of a condo in Mazatlan. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that there is a drug connection. Without a link making that connection, discussion would be based on pure fiction and could damage the reputations of the victims and accused.

True enough. However, we do know that DG has a past relationship with chemicals and drug manufacturing and for me it does have a role in his character and way of life. We would be foolish not to explore that avenue. If he is still connected with that underground lifestyle he may have taken his victims to one of his remote locations that he has used for other unknown crimes. I still think we can devote some sleuthing to assist in the recovery of three missing people.

 

[Sillybilly]

I'm not understanding the reasoning behind saying to the effect that unless charges are laid, the ID theft (or possible drug evidence) couldn't be introduced at trial. Example is the case of Dellen Millard being charged with 1st degree murder in the death of his father. There is no separate charge for possession of a stolen gun, but police believe the stolen gun was used to kill his father. Evidence is evidence, and it does not hinge on separate charges being laid to qualify it as evidence.

 

[Sillybilly]

It has been implied that there was a bad business deal between two of the victims and the accused. One source of conflict is the patent design work completed by the accused, and the other could be related to the recent joint Liknes/Garland purchase of a condo in Mazatlan. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that there is a drug connection. Without a link making that connection, discussion would be based on pure fiction and could damage the reputations of the victims and accused.

I see no reason that we shouldn't be discussing drugs in relation to DG. We are all aware of his history, so there is no reason that drugs and/or chemicals located on the farm cannot be discussed in relation to his possible current involvement with them. We aren't damaging his reputation .. he did that himself as evidenced by his history.

 

[otto]

True enough. However, we do know that DG has a past relationship with chemicals and drug manufacturing and for me it does have a role in his character and way of life. We would be foolish not to explore that avenue. If he is still connected with that underground lifestyle he may have taken his victims to one of his remote locations that he has used for other unknown crimes. I still think we can devote some sleuthing to assist in the recovery of three missing people.

The way the law works is that he was arrested in 1992 (22 years ago) for cooking meth, charged, he served his time, and it's done. In terms of character, it's relevant. In terms of guilt as it relates to murder, there is no connection. There is nothing to suggest that he is connected with drugs, mafia, biker gangs, the "underground", or other illegal activities today. Police are looking into a connection between the accused and the murder of a woman that was living a "hard" life.

It is very likely that he transported the victim's bodies to a secluded location.

 

[otto]

I'm not understanding the reasoning behind saying to the effect that unless charges are laid, the ID theft (or possible drug evidence) couldn't be introduced at trial. Example is the case of Dellen Millard being charged with 1st degree murder in the death of his father. There is no separate charge for possession of a stolen gun, but police believe the stolen gun was used to kill his father. Evidence is evidence, and it does not hinge on separate charges being laid to qualify it as evidence.

In that case there was a murder, a murder weapon, and the murder weapon was obtained illegally. Charging him with murder includes the lesser offences of stealing in order to commit murder. In this case, unless there is a relationship between the victims and drugs, and there are charges for illegal drugs, no evidence related to drugs can be introduced during the murder trial.

For example, let's suppose that Garland was cooking meth on his parent's property and distributing it to a biker gang. That has absolutely nothing to do with three murders in Parkhill. All evidence presented during the murder trial must directly relate to the charges of murder. Therefore, evidence of cooking meth for bikers cannot be introduced at a murder trial of three people that are not bikers and have nothing to do with drugs. If Garland was cooking meth for bikers, then there should be separate charges and a separate trial.

Alternatively, and what appears to be suggested, the prosecutor can charge someone with murder, and during that trial heap all sorts of extra, unrelated accusations against the accused where the accused and his lawyer are completely blindsided. That's not how it works.

 

[otto]

I see no reason that we shouldn't be discussing drugs in relation to DG. We are all aware of his history, so there is no reason that drugs and/or chemicals located on the farm cannot be discussed in relation to his possible current involvement with them. We aren't damaging his reputation .. he did that himself as evidenced by his history.

Sure, but the 1992 drug arrest cannot be connected to the Parkhill murders, so although it's an interesting historical fact and it speaks to character, it's unrelated to the murders.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

The way the law works is that he was arrested in 1992 (22 years ago) for cooking meth, charged, he served his time, and it's done. In terms of character, it's relevant. In terms of guilt as it relates to murder, there is no connection. There is nothing to suggest that he is connected with drugs, mafia, biker gangs, the "underground", or other illegal activities today. Police are looking into a connection between the accused and the murder of a woman that was living a "hard" life.

It is very likely that he transported the victim's bodies to a secluded location.

I hope you're right otto and there is no drug connection to any of this. It's hard for me to let go of the 'birds of a feather' philosophy with crimes, however, a family dynamic changes things because you can pick your friends but can't pick your family.

My father has a huge extended family with a couple unsavory characters in the family tree and we stay far, far, away from them because of whom they may be associated with and their lifestyle, however some of family members consider them and still intermingle with them because family and that is that.

Maybe AL saw potential with DG's smarts and they were legitimately working on patents and prototypes. Maybe AL and DG's sister or folks all went in on investing in the Mexico condo and DG was left on the sideline because he can't enter Mexico with a criminal record and maybe something as simple as rejection was motive?

I'm not stuck on the drug underground theory full on, just a gut feeling, I hope I'm wrong though.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

BBM

I think we should tread very carefully with implying that the victims were in any way associated with illegal drugs. If there is evidence, please post a link. Without that, I think it's off the table in terms of a discussion topic.

No one is saying they are. Someone, I can't remember who, asked how they could be tied to it, so that person received a plausible, speculative answer.

 

[otto]

I hope you're right otto and there is no drug connection to any of this. It's hard for me to let go of the 'birds of a feather' philosophy with crimes, however, a family dynamic changes things because you can pick your friends but can't pick your family.

My father has a huge extended family with a couple unsavory characters in the family tree and we stay far, far, away from them because of whom they may be associated with and their lifestyle, however some of family members consider them and still intermingle with them because family and that is that.

Maybe AL saw potential with DG's smarts and they were legitimately working on patents and prototypes. Maybe AL and DG's sister or folks all went in on investing in the Mexico condo and DG was left on the sideline because he can't enter Mexico with a criminal record and maybe something as simple as rejection was motive?

I'm not stuck on the drug underground theory full on, just a gut feeling, I hope I'm wrong though.

From my perspective, the victims are the two grandparents and a five year old child. To date, there is absolutely no connection between them and drugs. The only connection between them and the accused is that the sister of the accused is married to the son of two victims, and there was a business (patent) relationship about seven years ago. We can create all sorts of hypotheticals, but unless they are grounded in some fact, they are fiction ... and this thread is non-fiction.

 

[newone]

I hope you're right otto and there is no drug connection to any of this. It's hard for me to let go of the 'birds of a feather' philosophy with crimes, however, a family dynamic changes things because you can pick your friends but can't pick your family.

My father has a huge extended family with a couple unsavory characters in the family tree and we stay far, far, away from them because of whom they may be associated with and their lifestyle, however some of family members consider them and still intermingle with them because family and that is that.

Maybe AL saw potential with DG's smarts and they were legitimately working on patents and prototypes. Maybe AL and DG's sister or folks all went in on investing in the Mexico condo and DG was left on the sideline because he can't enter Mexico with a criminal record and maybe something as simple as rejection was motive?
I'm not stuck on the drug underground theory full on, just a gut feeling, I hope I'm wrong though.

Wow....bbm .... that just jumped off the page...green eyed monsters are formidable creatures and it is amazing how such a detail that you raised could enrage an envious and vindictive person. Good point.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

From my perspective, the victims are the two grandparents and a five year old child. To date, there is absolutely no connection between them and drugs. The only connection between them and the accused is that the sister of the accused is married to the son of two victims, and there was a business (patent) relationship about seven years ago. We can create all sorts of hypotheticals, but unless they are grounded in some fact, they are fiction ... and this thread is non-fiction.

Unfortunately, the speculative approach is also required. It would be a great disservice and disappointment if a critical online piece of information or evidence was sitting right there, but overlooked because everyone refused to consider the plausible, but ugly possibilities.

No one is victim bashing or accusing anyone of anything. Many of us keep reminding the group that the accused is just that, accused of a crime, and convicted of nothing. For all we know, he has an airtight alibi, and the truck was borrowed or stolen.

In theory, it's still only hypothetical that the truck is even tied to the crime, if we want to be that black and white about it.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

From my perspective, the victims are the two grandparents and a five year old child. To date, there is absolutely no connection between them and drugs. The only connection between them and the accused is that the sister of the accused is married to the son of two victims, and there was a business (patent) relationship about seven years ago. We can create all sorts of hypotheticals, but unless they are grounded in some fact, they are fiction ... and this thread is non-fiction.

Someone on here, I can't remember who, even created a mock up of the Parkhill home, based on nothing more than speculation, in order to speculate how the crime itself was committed.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

It's no secret that the family would like donations made in the form of a cheque payable directly to them.

Oh goodness! That was blunt...lol. This would have been the opportune time for them to correct such a perception by some of the public. They didn't take it. Maybe you're right. But...I'm going to go back to the compassion thing and say that perhaps they just weren't thinking, or it doesn't occur to them that there could be such a perception because there's no intent to capitalize on this situation?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Wow....bbm .... that just jumped off the page...green eyed monsters are formidable creatures and it is amazing how such a detail that you raised could enrage an envious and vindictive person. Good point.

Thanks newone, a couple sleuthers here believe in the KISS method as do I, even though there's part of me that thinks more elaborately made obvious by my theories But if this crime was committed on something very basic and emotional, rejection/humiliation could easily be it as it's been motives in many other crimes in the past.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Perhaps the parents have nothing to do with all the fundraisers directly, and don't want to promote any of them. I think they did the right thing letting a tribute to their son be just that...

Oh but they did have something to do with the one that Cherri Hodgins announced after the August 14th hearing. They gave their blessing for it to be made public, which IMO was them being involved. There was a big discussion on that particular one.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

Fundraising, specifying cheques made directly to the family, is mentioned in the article about the memorial:

"O’Brien was remembered as an active boy who loved life, enjoying every day to the fullest. His parents Jen and Rod O’Brien bravely gave an emotional tribute to their young son, and several songs were performed in the boy’s honour.

A separate memorial for the Liknes’ will be held in the coming weeks.

Funds are still being collected to help support family members, and e-mail money transfers can be sent to [email protected]."

http://globalnews.ca/news/1544568/grieving-family-says-final-farewell-to-superhero-nathan-obrien/

I read that as well otto following the memorial for NO. I don't see any bursaries or scholarships in memoriam for victims at this point in time in relation to the fundraising projects.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

In what way are illegal drug activities related to the murder? How are Alvin, Kathryn, and Nathan connected with illegal drugs?

Whatever motive there is for the murder will be related to the relationship between the accused and the victims ... so unless there's a drug connection, drugs cannot be mentioned during trial.

No one knows 100% what the 'whole' relationship was between AL/KL and DG. We only know what we've heard from AL (Jr). This has been discussed at length. Never say never, and don't discount anything....yet.