Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #15

[LoisLane]

If there was any evidence of illegal drug manufacturing at the Airdrie acreage, wouldn't police have charged the accused with drug manufacturing rather than identity theft?

I have a hard time believing DG used the acreage for that type of activity. I think he would have kept it elsewhere.

 

[otto]

I beg to differ...I have not stripped DG's character whatsoever, not one little iota...there's no reason to and generally that's not my way of any person, no matter what they've done.
My whole premise in life is that ALL people be treated with dignity and respect, and I've never made that a secret. I absolutely will not paint DG as a 'drug lord', murdering, pathetic human being publicly or otherwise, just because that is the opinion of the masses...I know nothing for sure about who he is or what he's done and will reserve judgement (if I even make one then...I am more likely to be compassionate for the futility of a life) about him once the trial is over.

I never said he followed his mom around to reach things down....I'm assuming she likely asked as many mothers do of their sons/daughters....or he simply offered. That's wonderful that your father-in-law is doing so well, my grandfather was the same, as was my grandmother. Does your father-in-law have a grown son at home that could help? If not, then I would assume there is little choice but to do it on his own, as was my grandparents. If my grandparent's had a son at home capable and willing to do the work, you can bet that it would've been my grandfather helping my uncle and not the other way around. But, one never knows arrangements in families. You are also assuming that DG's parents are in good health, we don't know that as we don't know anything whatsoever about them other than they go to church, and perhaps camp.

His primary role may have been the farm, or it may have been another line of work. We have no idea and there's nothing to prove it one way or the other. Again, I'm sure this will come out in the trial.

BBM

I don't think there is a mass perception that the accused is manufacturing illegal drugs simply because he would be charged with those offences if there was evidence. I think there is a mass perception that he is involved in the murders of three people. That much has been reported by police.

 

[otto]

I have a hard time believing DG used the acreage for that type of activity. I think he would have kept it elsewhere.

Police tracked down the locations where he manufactured meth at the time of his arrest. If he was doing the same thing today, police would have figure it out.

"Back in 1992, Calgary drug cops seized hundreds of chemicals, laboratory equipment and illegal drugs such as methamphetamines, methaqualone and LSD from a shed on the Garland property and from a rented facility in Crossfield."

http://www.montrealgazette.com/File...thy+Liknes+their+grandson/10005816/story.html

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Perhaps not. That is one of the reasons I am trying to determine what other uses the chemicals might have. The zinc phosphate is obvious - it's a rodenticide and commonly used on farms for pest control. I am not sure as yet what other uses it might have. I believe it can be used for etching metals and cleaning rust off machinery.

I'm trying to be open minded also about the chemicals, the companies, etc. My thoughts are based on my gut feeling, and I could very well be wrong. It's good to keep all options open, explore all avenues.

I wonder if DG only advertised certain chemicals with his company, but in fact dealt in more? I'm trying to remind myself that the website/company is what he wants the public to see and maybe a front, not necessarily what's really going on. So he could have a catalogue of chemicals to sell/ship or whatever...

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Yes indeed. I did point this out at the time we learned about the layoffs in the last week of June. What I didn't know until much later is that there are 2 CL's. CL jr is married to SL. CL sr is the one who went to Parkhill when the police were there.

Oops sorry Cherchri, didn't realize you posted already! I wasn't sure if someone did, but thought someone must've with all the info been researched out there! Yeah, the CL I was referring to is the nephew/boxer.

 

[Sillybilly]

Well, sure he is intelligent, that is proven just by his attendance at university, the jobs he has held, etc, but I was curious about where that 'genius' reference originated, aside from a news reporter's story.

Not sure I'm following you. The news report attributed the genius claim to LE, although it was not a direct quote by LE (if that's what you mean?).

 

[Lalalacasbah]

If there was any evidence of illegal drug manufacturing at the Airdrie acreage, wouldn't police have charged the accused with drug manufacturing rather than identity theft?

My opinion has been all along, no drug manufacturing was taking place presently. I think he might've been involved in the paper work/legalizing of things to assist in the underground drug world - ordering/shipping/moving products (be it chemicals, vehicles, machinery), creating companies/identities, etc. Almost like a middle man with the brains behind things . IMO.

 

[otto]

Not that it may be important but weeks back I was trying to find the statement where DG is referred to as "genius". I thought it was from a court ruling. I found this article where the police refer to DG as "genius".

"Described by police as a genius, Mr. Garland studied science at the University of Alberta, where he planned to become a doctor. But he left school without finishing a degree, then vanished shortly after the raid on his parents' acreage."

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rEVu_xE9AW8yIq5NXvm7fLLKOFIjvzKo2KFBuAPvPh8/edit?pli=1

The judge describe Garland as "intelligent", most likely because he completed two years of a BSc degree at the University of Alberta. However, we know that he was expelled for cheating. If he was intelligent enough to legitimately be in that program, he would not need to cheat. He's not stupid, but I think "genius" is overstating it.

"What else is known about Garland has come from court records and parole documents. They reveal an intelligent person, but someone who struggled with mental problems that led, at least in part, to a rather lengthy criminal record."

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/douglas-garland-intelligent-man-mental-issues-criminal-past-183015934.html

"Described by police as a genius, Mr. Garland studied science at the University of Alberta, where he planned to become a doctor. But he left school without finishing a degree, then vanished shortly after the raid on his parents' acreage."

http://injusticebusters.org/index.htm/newstories3.htm

"The judge in that case, which saw the government try to deny him benefits because he used a false identity and social insurance number, described him as intelligent but suffering from attention-deficit disorder and prone to breakdowns."

http://o.canada.com/news/national/b...w-and-mental-health-concerns-documents-reveal

"A Postmedia News story from the drugs trial noted that the meth cook, as drug makers are called, had studied science at the University of Alberta but was expelled after being caught cheating."

 

[otto]

Not sure I'm following you. The news report attributed the genius claim to LE, although it was not a direct quote by LE (if that's what you mean?).

The judge described Garland as "intelligent". It looks like the reporter may have embellished somewhat in suggesting that police described the accused as a genius.

 

[Cherchri]

Per my post #258 DG advertised his business (P2 Solutions) as a chemical manufacturing company wishing to sell elemental mercury and sodium.
Per my post #290 under the name of Ranchlands Equipment Ltd he was seeking to purchase/import Zinc Phosphide.
He has, therefore, publicly stated that he is in the business of manufacturing chemicals. He no doubt worked on the farm too as he claimed to work on the farm until 9pm most nights.
I am still researching the chemicals and their various uses.

 

[otto]

My opinion has been all along, no drug manufacturing was taking place presently. I think he might've been involved in the paper work/legalizing of things to assist in the underground drug world - ordering/shipping/moving products (be it chemicals, vehicles, machinery), creating companies/identities, etc. Almost like a middle man with the brains behind things . IMO.

What evidence is there that he was involved in the underground drug world? This link reminds me of all the company profiles that Alvin Liknes had: http://www.tradekey.com/company/P2-Solutions-Ltd-8382577.html. The company was established in 2000, and there doesn't seem to be any more information. It might be a company webpage with nothing behind it. Regarding the Ranchland Equipment Ltd company (Post Date: Aug 15,2013 Expiry Date:Feb 11,2014): "We are a Canadian company interested in the purchase of zinc phosphide ... Export packaging Please indicate MOQ and quantity disconts."

http://www.chemnet.com/Global/Offer-to-Buy/Zinc-phosphide-260509.html
http://www.tradekey.com/company/P2-Solutions-Ltd-8382577.html

Forty acres of crop fields filled with gophers can be a big problem. Is there any reason to believe that he wanted the pesticide for anything other than pest control?

"Zinc Phosphide is an inorganic chemical that is used to control rats, mice, voles, ground squirrels, prairie dogs, nutria, muskrats, feral rabbits and gophers. It is also uses as a tracking powder for the control of house mice. It is used on crop areas and on non-crop areas including lawns, golf courses, highway medians, and areas adjacent to wetlands. It may be formulated as a grain based bait, as scrap bait or as a paste. Rodenticide baits usually contain 2.0 percent of zinc phosphide."

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/pyrethrins-ziram/zinc-phosphide-ext.html

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

If there was any evidence of illegal drug manufacturing at the Airdrie acreage, wouldn't police have charged the accused with drug manufacturing rather than identity theft?

That is difficult to determine. At that early stage, the identity theft was very quick, and very easy to prove if they indeed found the bank card on his person when they initially brought him in.

If the point of the charges were to keep him in custody for more questioning, and/or keeping him off the streets, then the identity theft was enough.

He did get released for that brief time to the hotel. I still cannot make sense of that. Did LE really *not* have anything else to hold him on at that point? Was LE following him with some feint hope he would lead them somewhere?

 

[otto]

Per my post #258 DG advertised his business (P2 Solutions) as a chemical manufacturing company wishing to sell elemental mercury and sodium.
Per my post #290 under the name of Ranchlands Equipment Ltd he was seeking to purchase/import Zinc Phosphide.
He has, therefore, publicly stated that he is in the business of manufacturing chemicals. He no doubt worked on the farm to as he claimed to work on the farm until 9pm most nights.
I am still researching the chemicals and their various uses.

BBM

The P2 company was registered in 2000, and that seems to be the beginning and end of it. I don't think we can draw any conclusions 14 years later. The Ranchlands Equipment Company seems to belong to the father of the accused (email contact is father), with Douglas as the contact, and there is a request for pesticide. Regarding the phrase that I changed to "bold", how do we get to the point where we can say this? I don't think there is anything unusual about posting a purchase request for crop pesticide when the man owns a 40 acre crop farm.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Per my post #258 DG advertised his business (P2 Solutions) as a chemical manufacturing company wishing to sell elemental mercury and sodium.
Per my post #290 under the name of Ranchlands Equipment Ltd he was seeking to purchase/import Zinc Phosphide.
He has, therefore, publicly stated that he is in the business of manufacturing chemicals. He no doubt worked on the farm to as he claimed to work on the farm until 9pm most nights.
I am still researching the chemicals and their various uses.

It should also be pointed out that it simply may be for the purposes of buying and selling for profit. Import the Zinc Phosphide, and sell it to local farms for their own pest control. No manufacturing required.

I have my own theories, but it is entirely plausible the businesses were a legitimate source of income... or not.

 

[otto]

That is difficult to determine. At that early stage, the identity theft was very quick, and very easy to prove if they indeed found the bank card on his person when they initially brought him in.

If the point of the charges were to keep him in custody for more questioning, and/or keeping him off the streets, then the identity theft was enough.

He did get released for that brief time to the hotel. I still cannot make sense of that. Did LE really *not* have anything else to hold him on at that point? Was LE following him with some feint hope he would lead them somewhere?

I don't think they did. If police could have kept him in custody, I believe they would have done that. He was detained on July 4, and not released until July 11, which is a very long time for having the wrong ID. If there was any indication that there was a drug lab on the property or in a rented unit, police would have charged him with those offences.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I don't think they did. If police could have kept him in custody, I believe they would have done that. He was detained on July 4, and not released until July 11, which is a very long time for having the wrong ID. If there was any indication that there was a drug lab on the property or in a rented unit, police would have charged him with those offences.

Agreed.

... but at that time with the victims missing, and the possibility they were still alive somewhere... and you have one suspect...

... how tempting is it to let him go and follow? Do those conversations actually take place? Is there an absolute protocol everyone follows without question, or is there an effort to work the system for the sake of the victims lives?

Put yourselves in LE and the Crown's position... what if you had initial signs of a drug lab, or murder, or something else to possibly lay more charges? Do you? If your suspect is the only connection to the victims, with time for their very lives possibly running out... do you decide you just don't have enough evidence to lay those charges? Do you keep the suspect in custody knowing you may be eliminating any chance a surviving victim has? Does that even factor into the decision... maybe subconsciously?

Quite the moral dilemma... kudos to those who choose that path and put themselves in that position willingly.

 

[Cherchri]

BBM

The P2 company was registered in 2000, and that seems to be the beginning and end of it. I don't think we can draw any conclusions 14 years later. The Ranchlands Equipment Company seems to belong to the father of the accused (email contact is father), with Douglas as the contact, and there is a request for pesticide. Regarding the phrase that I changed to "bold", how do we get to the point where we can say this? I don't think there is anything unusual about posting a purchase request for crop pesticide when the man owns a 40 acre crop farm.

No-one suggested there was anything unusual about it. Someone was wondering about what he did for a living. Here is something he put in the public domain which one construed as a possible source of income. The ban on export of elemental mercury quite possibly put paid to P2 Solutions Ltd. one does wonder where it was obtained as it can't be "manufactured". It could have been derived from used batteries. Again there are illicit uses and perfectly legitimate uses for the product. I am particularly interested in trying to establish what "dangerous and flammable" chemicals LE removed from the acreage. BUT again, they could simply have been stored since the man claimed to own a chemical manufacturing business.

 

[otto]

Agreed.

... but at that time with the victims missing, and the possibility they were still alive somewhere... and you have one suspect...

... how tempting is it to let him go and follow? Do those conversations actually take place? Is there an absolute protocol everyone follows without question, or is there an effort to work the system for the sake of the victims lives?

Put yourselves in LE and the Crown's position... what if you had initial signs of a drug lab, or murder, or something else to possibly lay more charges? Do you? If your suspect is the only connection to the victims, with time for their very lives possibly running out... do you decide you just don't have enough evidence to lay those charges? Does that even factor into the decision... maybe subconsciously?

Quite the moral dilemma... kudos to those who choose that path and put themselves in that position willingly.

I think the police wanted to keep him in custody to eliminate the possibility that he vanished (like he did after the drug charges in 1992), or committed suicide. As soon as police had confirmation from the forensic lab, he was immediately re-arrested on the murder charges. When the accused was in custody for the identity theft, it seemed obvious to me that the prosecutor was using every delay tactic he could think of to keep the accused locked up. If there was any evidence of drug manufacturing, I would expect those charges to be added to the murder charges.

 

[otto]

No-one suggested there was anything unusual about it. Someone was wondering about what he did for a living. Here is something he put in the public domain which one construed as a possible source of income. The ban on export of elemental mercury quite possibly put paid to P2 Solutions Ltd. one does wonder where it was obtained as it can't be "manufactured". It could have been derived from used batteries. Again there are illicit uses and perfectly legitimate uses for the product. I am particularly interested in trying to establish what "dangerous and flammable" chemicals LE removed from the acreage. BUT again, they could simply have been stored since the man claimed to own a chemical manufacturing business.

Where does the "chemical manufacturing" part come from? All I see on the company page is that the company was set up in 2000, and the company products/services is
mercury. Thirteen years later he posted an online request for crop pesticide. He obviously doesn't have an income because when bail was set and the accused had to provide an address where he would live, there was discussion about a homeless shelter.

 

[Cherchri]

It should also be pointed out that it simply may be for the purposes of buying and selling for profit. Import the Zinc Phosphide, and sell it to local farms for their own pest control. No manufacturing required.

I have my own theories, but it is entirely plausible the businesses were a legitimate source of income... or not.

Indeed!