Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #15

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  • #601
It is common to request links for statements on this forum, especially when questionable claims are made. It's simply not true that the Calgary oil and gas industry is rife with illegal drug abuse, and that is the only explanation for the absence of a link.

Claims about Fort Mcmurray, a city that is 800 kilometres North of Calgary, are completely irrelevant. The claim that has been made is that the Calgary oil and gas industry is rife with illegal drug abuse. If it is not true, it should not be stated. If it is true, there should be ample sources to back up the claim.

Not to belabor this, but if you look up who is operating in Ft. Mac, and look up where they are headquartered, many will have head and field offices in Calgary. To define a specific Calgary Oil and Gas industry to split hairs is a bit over the top. No one is saying the oil and gas industry is 100% organized crime, and that all oil and gas industry professionals are part of organized crime, or making any such generalizations... most people are also of the belief that there is the potential for abuse in every industry, including oil and gas.

Such is the way of the reasonable. It's not black or white, true or false, on or off... it's different views and perspectives, and an ability to change your world view when your world view no longer makes sense.
 
  • #602
What do we know about them?
They have 2 sons between them, and another son that belongs to RO.
They have lost a son, NO.
JO has lost her mother KL, her step-father AL
RO has lost his in-laws
RO claimed bankruptcy (although I don't know why we need to know this...is nothing

private?)
Both JO and RO work at Cenovus
Neither have returned to work as at August 14, 2014 and are "shattered" according to family friend Cherri Hodgins
They go to church
They were married 9 years ago I believe (there are pics on KL's Facebook page)
They take a beautiful family photo
JO was the last to see KL/AL and NO alive.
JO was the first to arrive at the crime scene the next morning at 10:00 am
JO and RO have Facebook profiles

Other than that...really, what do we know Otto?

Is this an allusion that they are unsavoury?
 
  • #603
What on earth does the degree of criminal drug activity/organized crime within the oil and gas industry in Alberta, booming metropolises or Fort McMurray have to do with the murder of a pair of grandparents and a 5 year old boy??

If it is not nasty speculation about the victims and/or their family, what is it?

IMHO

Perhaps it's an angle to look at... which leads to research being done on how money laundering is done... which leads to looking into companies, advertisements, ownerships, partnerships... or leads to news articles of other companies, or other bankruptcies in other countries... that is the very essence of sleuthing.

Again... chicken or the egg? One doesn't just stumble on pertinent information, without theorizing about the possibilities first.

No one is accusing the victims of anything. The discussion was about amphetamine manufacturing, and went off the rails about rules.
 
  • #604
Thank you for your comments. I don't mean to imply that LE are not doing a good job, they could very well be doing an astounding job, I just don't know that, and I'm not prepared to hang a man when I don't know he is guilty. The point is that it seems many WSer's believe that DG is guilty, even though there has been no real evidence disclosed to the public to even base that on.
I'm sorry that you are tired about hearing of wrongly accused and convicted, and hopefully it IS a very rare occurrence. I find it hard to believe that so many, and not just in this case, and not just on WS, are so willing to hang a person before there is even a trial, (so to speak), indeed before there is even a preliminary hearing, and even before any real evidence is made public. In the beginning, even after the green truck, LE had stated they were still looking into other avenues, and that DG was not the only person of interest in this particular case. Sightings of the missing family were reported in tips to the police. I am really hoping that LE has given all of the tips and all of the circumstantial evidence in this case fair consideration, as opposed to being too focused on one possibility. And that, I know, happens a lot, and perhaps it often also results in the truth, but not always, and by the time it may be discovered that another tip should have been given more weight at the time, it is often too late to pursue it.
Lastly, yes I do believe LE absolutely used the ID charge in order to hold DG in custody in regard to the murder. And further, I don't see anything wrong with that. It was within their rights to do so, and for whatever reasons they felt it was warranted at the time, and I'm sure they felt they would be able to gather some kind of hard evidence very quickly. But after days of searching the man's property while he was waiting for his bail hearing on the ID charge(s), they still had nothing concrete with which to hold him on, and he ended up getting bail.
"I'm not prepared to hang a man" - anyone here who is ready to hang this man, put up your hand!! :seeya:

(Undeserved judgment and unfair appeal to emotion, IMO)

I would disagree with your last sentence here. I'm pretty sure you have no factual evidence to support your assertion that they had nothing concrete. I personally believe they were waiting for results of lab testing, and that they may have had a strong hunch as to the evidence those tests would yield.

IMHO
 
  • #605
They were married 9 years ago I believe (there are pics on KL's Facebook page)

Correction just for the record ... they were married in 2009
 
  • #606
Perhaps it's an angle to look at... which leads to research being done on how money laundering is done... which leads to looking into companies, advertisements, ownerships, partnerships... or leads to news articles of other companies, or other bankruptcies in other countries... that is the very essence of sleuthing.

Again... chicken or the egg? One doesn't just stumble on pertinent information, without theorizing about the possibilities first.

No one is accusing the victims of anything. The discussion was about amphetamine manufacturing, and went off the rails about rules.

... and now we know the rules.
 
  • #607
Who the heck ever said that? Lol

Seems I truly stand alone !! (Partly because it turns out other people say hoosegow, and were always too polite to correct me) :biggrin:
 
  • #608
Perhaps it's an angle to look at... which leads to research being done on how money laundering is done... which leads to looking into companies, advertisements, ownerships, partnerships... or leads to news articles of other companies, or other bankruptcies in other countries... that is the very essence of sleuthing.

Again... chicken or the egg? One doesn't just stumble on pertinent information, without theorizing about the possibilities first.

No one is accusing the victims of anything. The discussion was about amphetamine manufacturing, and went off the rails about rules.
Respectfully - baloney. No one has explained how that has anything to do with Gramma, Grampa, and NO. If these victims were not involved in money laundering, how would money laundering have anything to do with their deaths? Argue chicken versus egg all you want, when folks go down that road, they are attempting to connect dots between the victims and the very criminality about which they speculate. IMO, that is decidedly NOT sleuthing.

IMHO
 
  • #609
"I'm not prepared to hang a man" - anyone here who is ready to hang this man, put up your hand!! :seeya:

(Undeserved judgment and unfair appeal to emotion, IMO)

I would disagree with your last sentence here. I'm pretty sure you have no factual evidence to support your assertion that they had nothing concrete. I personally believe they were waiting for results of lab testing, and that they may have had a strong hunch as to the evidence those tests would yield.

IMHO

IMO, waiting for lab results, and strong hunches are the very definition of having nothing concrete. Had they the lab results at that time, then charges would have been laid before he got out on bail... no? It's a fact he got out on bail.

The sentence was... "they still had nothing concrete with which to hold him on"... which, given the fact he got out on bail, is probably accurate.

Just saying...
 
  • #610
Respectfully - baloney. No one has explained how that has anything to do with Gramma, Grampa, and NO. If these victims were not involved in money laundering, how would money laundering have anything to do with their deaths? Argue chicken versus egg all you want, when folks go down that road, they are attempting to connect dots between the victims and the very criminality about which they speculate. IMO, that is decidedly NOT sleuthing.

IMHO

Correct. No one has explained, thus, no one has made that accusation. Get it now?
 
  • #611
"I'm not prepared to hang a man" - anyone here who is ready to hang this man, put up your hand!! :seeya:

(Undeserved judgment and unfair appeal to emotion, IMO)

I would disagree with your last sentence here. I'm pretty sure you have no factual evidence to support your assertion that they had nothing concrete. I personally believe they were waiting for results of lab testing, and that they may have had a strong hunch as to the evidence those tests would yield.

IMHO

I think I've been here too long. What typically happens when there is a new murder is that everyone works together to gather facts. When the information dries up, almost like clockwork, there's conflict in the discussion. Next, there is a suggestion that some people have lost the ability to be objective. That always gets a reaction, mostly because it's a bit backhanded. There's always a complaint about police not releasing enough information (unless it's a Florida case), which always leads to the suggestion that there is no evidence. If the case isn't solved fast enough, the police are targeted as the bad guys. Sometimes, if the prosecution is successful, the prosecutor is dragged through the mud. There are some that are willing to accept new evidence as it is released, and some that have a fixed opinion and regardless of evidence.
 
  • #612
I think I've been here too long. What typically happens when there is a new murder is that everyone works together to gather facts. When the information dries up, almost like clockwork, there's conflict in the discussion. Next, there is a suggestion that some people have lost the ability to be objective. That always gets a reaction, mostly because it's a bit backhanded. There's always a complaint about police not releasing enough information (unless it's a Florida case), which always leads to the suggestion that there is no evidence. If the case isn't solved fast enough, the police are targeted as the bad guys. Sometimes, if the prosecution is successful, the prosecutor is dragged through the mud. There are some that are willing to accept new evidence as it is released, and some that have a fixed opinion and regardless of evidence.

:goodpost:
 
  • #613
  • #614
What on earth does the degree of criminal drug activity/organized crime within the oil and gas industry in Alberta, booming metropolises or Fort McMurray have to do with the murder of a pair of grandparents and a 5 year old boy??

If it is not nasty speculation about the victims and/or their family, what is it?

IMHO
In Alberta, business is business...it's a booming economy and everyone is doing business with everyone (so to speak). No one said the victims were involved in illegal drugs...just simply stating a point that there could have been CONTACT with these types through business...nobody knows WHO AL knew business-wise. No one said he was involved in any unsavory dealings, but perhaps some unsavory people may have been clients or investors.
 
  • #615
I have gathered some links in an effort to understand the probability of accessing criminal charges laid and public access. From what I understand, if criminal charges are laid, that information does not have to be relayed to the public unless it is for the public's safety. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The criminal case step-by-step:
http://www.gov.mb.ca/justice/prosecutions/stepbystep.html

Laying criminal charges:
http://www.justicebc.ca/en/cjis/understanding/how_it_works/charged.html

Hard to check the criminal records of others:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hard-to-check-criminal-records-of-others-1.1145038
 
  • #616
Regarding the identity theft charge. Here's an idea as to how it could be related to the murders.

Could it be possible that DG used his MH false identity to communicate with the Ls over the purchase of estate sale items advertised on kijiji? Example: responds to ad to say he wants the couch, will pay full price, maybe even pay by Paypal, out of a bank account in the name of MH, so that they'll hold the item for him and can't come to pick it up until, say, 10 PM. This would indicate a premeditated plan and a plausible reason to gain entry into the L home later at night. Evidence of the sale may have been found in a forensic examination of DG's computer (not that I recall for certain that he had a computer ...)

Just an idea as to how the identity theft charge might have been related to the murders.
THAT right there is an excellent post and thought!!!

Thanks for sharing. Most intuitive and also simple enough to have the ring of truth to it.

That could very well be part and parcel of the crime.
 
  • #617
Just yesterday, I saw 3 people walking to the store in their pyjamas...I live in a very nice neighborhood too so I doubt it makes that much difference weather KL was in pj's or not if DG was coming to claim furniture...pj's don't look the way they used to...not all look like lingerie or bunting bags anymore...lol
Bunting Bags?! Lol. Too funny
 
  • #618
Is this an allusion that they are unsavoury?
Nope, its not...it's just because enquiring minds want to know. Kind of gives one a broad view of all the angles...and perhaps to establish a framework for potential motives and/or players.
Seems I truly stand alone !! (Partly because it turns out other people say hoosegow, and were always too polite to correct me) [emoji3]
 
  • #619
IMO, waiting for lab results, and strong hunches are the very definition of having nothing concrete. Had they the lab results at that time, then charges would have been laid before he got out on bail... no? It's a fact he got out on bail.

The sentence was... "they still had nothing concrete with which to hold him on"... which, given the fact he got out on bail, is probably accurate.

Just saying...
You're splitting hairs over semantics. I think you are demonstrating the Websleuths version of phenomenon known as "the CSI effect". To expect LE to have what you call "concrete evidence" in hand in such a short timeframe is the kind of unrealistic expectation spawned by tv drama.

IMHO
 
  • #620
I think I've been here too long. What typically happens when there is a new murder is that everyone works together to gather facts. When the information dries up, almost like clockwork, there's conflict in the discussion. Next, there is a suggestion that some people have lost the ability to be objective. That always gets a reaction, mostly because it's a bit backhanded. There's always a complaint about police not releasing enough information (unless it's a Florida case), which always leads to the suggestion that there is no evidence. If the case isn't solved fast enough, the police are targeted as the bad guys. Sometimes, if the prosecution is successful, the prosecutor is dragged through the mud. There are some that are willing to accept new evidence as it is released, and some that have a fixed opinion and regardless of evidence.


That has not been my experience, but if this is happening to you frequently, then perhaps there is some sort of connection...
 
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