Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #16

[deugirtni]

I think $400/hr is definitely being conservative. An average rate in my small unbooming town is $500. I think the rate goes up if a court appearance is required. I'm not sure if, because Calgary is 'booming', and the price of housing and everything else is much higher out there, the legal rates might also be correspondingly higher? I agree that it would be simple for $30K to have easily been spent ALREADY, never mind by the time this trial/case is all said and done. Which leads to a very interesting concept...... if MOST Canadians are not in a financial position to be able to afford the rates that lawyers are charging nowadays... and yet, the legal bills of MOST criminals are paid for from the public purse.. something is just really wrong with this picture.

$30K could be easily spent by now. For example:
hourly rate of $400 X 75 hours = $30K
hourly rate of $400 X 250 hours = $100K

ETA: Unless... It's a flat fee?

I think $400/hr. is being conservative

 

[Krystine]

My post wasn't in *total* reference to DG really (other than his parents being away reference) it was more my thoughts that it was almost like a perfect storm for a crime to be committed and it makes me quite sad. I think what if…..the neighbors were home, what if…….it wasn't a loud weekend, would anyone hear anything abnormal? I think of what if….the murderer was interrupted and stopped because of these things.

The truck pic was seen by more eyes I believe because of the Amber Alert release. Without NO being involved they wouldn't have the criteria to issue the Amber Alert. A missing child and Amber Alert gets the attention of the public vastly and reaches a lot of eyes now with Facebook, media, etc. far more than if there wasn't an Amber Albert IMO.

In total agreement about the Amber Alert. In another recent thread an Amber Alert was issued for a 5 yr. old boy reported to be in a stolen truck...well, it turned out the owner just wanted his 1993 half ton back. He thought police would be a lot more interested with the Amber Alert ;( attached.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I think we don't know for sure, and likely no way that could be confirmed since it would be confidential. Someone however, mentioned that the amount of bail that was posted for DG, would have taken into consideration the accused's ability to pay, although I'm not sure if that is necessarily true that that would be a consideration in setting bail? I have no way of knowing how much DG's income was, from his business(es), but I am *assuming* that he might be living on his own somewhere, rather than with his parents, if he were producing enough income to pay for a lawyer to cover a murder case. I can't imagine what those costs might add up to. In fact, sometimes I wonder if *anyone* can afford to pay for that unless they happen to be wealthy. I know through my job that with just a simple civil case that doesn't even hit the courts, the costs are just outrageous, and I shudder to think what they could add up to if a lawyer actually has to attend court multiple times. Who has a few hundred thousand dollars in savings to be used for a legal defence?

An accused's ability to pay is definitely taken into consideration. However, bail is also set according to other factors, such as severity of crime, flight risk, danger to the public, etc. so it could be that it was 750.00 just because it was more of a 'social' crime rather than a crime against somebody (ie, attempted murder, murder). JMO

 

[Krystine]

I am still puzzling over the black SUV at the slough. Was that, perhaps, a stolen vehicle? Could it have been tied to the crime?

Me too. If I recall though, all four doors on the SUV were open. Was it abandoned or was it an unmarked vehicle belonging to LE? Having said that, I can't imagine front and back seat passengers being so 'gung ho' to get to the slough as to leave all doors open.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I think $400/hr is definitely being conservative. An average rate in my small unbooming town is $500. I think the rate goes up if a court appearance is required. I'm not sure if, because Calgary is 'booming', and the price of housing and everything else is much higher out there, the legal rates might also be correspondingly higher? I agree that it would be simple for $30K to have easily been spent ALREADY, never mind by the time this trial/case is all said and done. Which leads to a very interesting concept...... if MOST Canadians are not in a financial position to be able to afford the rates that lawyers are charging nowadays... and yet, the legal bills of MOST criminals are paid for from the public purse.. something is just really wrong with this picture.

It is most definitely conservative. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't somewhere in the upper end of $ 700-1500/hour. Yes, there are instances for sure where there is 'court ordered' legal counsel when legal aid criteria is not met, and/or the severity of the crime and length of proceedings would preclude the abiity to pay.

Right to counsel means a defendant has a right to have the assistance of counsel (i.e., lawyers), and if the defendant cannot afford a lawyer, requires that the government appoint one or pay the defendants legal expenses. The right to counsel is generally regarded as a constituent of the right to a fair trial. Historically, however, not all countries have always recognized the right to counsel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_counsel

 

[deugirtni]

For me, so far anyway, it is just too good to be true, and that old saying, 'if it seems too good to be true, it probably is'.. to me, too much fell immediately into LE's lap.. and so based on that, to me, that is why LE deployed so many resources to that property, because they felt certain there had to be more, this couldn't have just been a coincidence, right?.. and to say they have voluminous evidence, but yet still no smoking gun, can simply mean things like... they recovered barrels of chemicals, chemicals which perhaps *could* be used for destroying bodies.

I, personally, IMOO, am having difficulty because I know that if LE has a theory, they sometimes pursue a case with the theory in mind, matching the details to the theory, discarding the details which don't fit the theory, rather than the other way around. For me, just because LE thinks it was one way, doesn't make it true, with all due respect to LE. Sometimes when you're in the midst of something, it's harder to be unbiased. I want a smoking gun. I want *something* more.. and I realize they cannot disclose what they have. I hope they have it.

Did I mention the Audrey Gleave case in Ancaster/Lynden ON a few years ago, when LE put their sights on a homeless man as the suspect? MSM were being vultures in the way they were reporting about the suspect, and I'm surprised if they don't, or didn't already, get sued in a big way for the things that were said on air at the time. The community was all for hanging the guy, he was not well liked, he was 'weird', most people knew of him. With small communities, everyone thinks they know everyone else's business. What better suspect than someone who doesn't fit in? In the end, the judge ruled not enough evidence for conviction, and so the accused was released. And that brutal murder of a single retired woman remains unsolved to this day. I can't help feeling that if LE did a more thorough job in collecting all kinds of evidence and interviewing all kinds of people, instead of setting their sights on the 'weird homeless guy', they could have had another suspect, perhaps the real killer, and perhaps the community would be rid of a really nasty murderer who is still loose out there. LE were upset with the judge's ruling, and it was like they then gave up completely on the case. We read later that some of the victim's contacts were not even contacted by LE. Why contact them if they didn't fit with LE's homeless guy theory?

Then this Millard case happens, where the man also has acreage, and then it is deemed that perhaps he not only killed Bosma, but also his ex gf and his own father. I'm *getting* that LE are taking hints from other cases, that often there is more to be found from the suspect they have in mind, if only they look hard enough. So great, but I really hope it doesn't relieve them of looking also down other avenues.

I went down that path of reckoning quite early and there are several factors that influenced my thinking when coming to the conclusion that DG was a or the perpetrator. One such reason was the massive deployment of LE specifically to the Airdrie acreage. This has to have been one of Calgary's biggest deployments ever? The ensuing duration of the search and the "voluminous evidence" collected put paid to that thinking for me.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Yes of course! Sorry I wasn't questioning your post, I was more or less questioning my own and my logic by asking 'right?' to see if you or others agree! Hopefully it didn't sound snarky.

He must've got there by the green truck caught on camera I would think…. The black truck found on the acreage at the swamp might've been stolen.

Oh no! I didn't think you were questioning my post...lol. And even if you were, no worries...that's what we all do here!
You didn't in the least sound snarky...mine must have for you to have reacted this way...sorry about that! No intention to put anyone on the defensive.
I was just 'talking' to you...that's how I talk...lol...better have a look at that...lol

 

[Tinkerbel1]

For me, so far anyway, it is just too good to be true, and that old saying, 'if it seems too good to be true, it probably is'.. to me, too much fell immediately into LE's lap.. and so based on that, to me, that is why LE deployed so many resources to that property, because they felt certain there had to be more, this couldn't have just been a coincidence, right?.. and to say they have voluminous evidence, but yet still no smoking gun, can simply mean things like... they recovered barrels of chemicals, chemicals which perhaps *could* be used for destroying bodies.

I, personally, IMOO, am having difficulty because I know that if LE has a theory, they sometimes pursue a case with the theory in mind, matching the details to the theory, discarding the details which don't fit the theory, rather than the other way around. For me, just because LE thinks it was one way, doesn't make it true, with all due respect to LE. Sometimes when you're in the midst of something, it's harder to be unbiased. I want a smoking gun. I want *something* more.. and I realize they cannot disclose what they have. I hope they have it.

Did I mention the Audrey Gleave case in Ancaster/Lynden ON a few years ago, when LE put their sights on a homeless man as the suspect? MSM were being vultures in the way they were reporting about the suspect, and I'm surprised if they don't, or didn't already, get sued in a big way for the things that were said on air at the time. The community was all for hanging the guy, he was not well liked, he was 'weird', most people knew of him. With small communities, everyone thinks they know everyone else's business. What better suspect than someone who doesn't fit in? In the end, the judge ruled not enough evidence for conviction, and so the accused was released. And that brutal murder of a single retired woman remains unsolved to this day. I can't help feeling that if LE did a more thorough job in collecting all kinds of evidence and interviewing all kinds of people, instead of setting their sights on the 'weird homeless guy', they could have had another suspect, perhaps the real killer, and perhaps the community would be rid of a really nasty murderer who is still loose out there. LE were upset with the judge's ruling, and it was like they then gave up completely on the case. We read later that some of the victim's contacts were not even contacted by LE. Why contact them if they didn't fit with LE's homeless guy theory?

Then this Millard case happens, where the man also has acreage, and then it is deemed that perhaps he not only killed Bosma, but also his ex gf and his own father. I'm *getting* that LE are taking hints from other cases, that often there is more to be found from the suspect they have in mind, if only they look hard enough. So great, but I really hope it doesn't relieve them of looking also down other avenues.

I agree Deugirtni (geez that's hard to spell). Do you know what else stands out to me? DG's demeanor in all of this. He seems so calm. He doesn't seem to be scared. Most people I would think would be scared, or cocky if they were guilty. JMO

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Me too. If I recall though, all four doors on the SUV were open. Was it abandoned or was it an unmarked vehicle belonging to LE? Having said that, I can't imagine front and back seat passengers being so 'gung ho' to get to the slough as to leave all doors open.

Lol...no one wouldn't think...but we are in Alberta...one never knows...lol

 

[CentralAlberta]

Two vehicle thefts in a given area doesn't necessarily mean both done by same person? Nor that the residential break-in was also connected with one or both of the vehicle thefts? I wonder if the crime/theft incidences increased due to the Stampede going on?

The Calgary stampede wasn't going on at the time of the murders. The Ponoka stampede was on. I think the Calgary stampede is about 10 days after Ponoka. The are many 'tag-a-longs' following the circuit.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall a MSM article from the initial identity theft charge, stating that KR was 'assigned' the case, which further led me to believe he was seeking LA. Legal Aid takes into account ALL your assets and I'm pretty sure you have to submit bank records to qualify. You also may only qualify for a portion based on these numbers. They will contact a lawyer if your choosing to ascertain whether they will accept legal Aid, or they can assign one that does.

http://www.legalaid.ab.ca/help/Pages/Eligibility.aspx

It could definitely be possible that his banking records showed that he qualified for legal aid...if he made his money lets say through 'ill gotten means', he probably didn't disclose those earnings. You have to be pretty poor to qualify for legal aid.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

The Calgary stampede wasn't going on at the time of the murders. The Ponoka stampede was on. I think the Calgary stampede is about 10 days after Ponoka. The are many 'tag-a-longs' following the circuit.

I believe the Stampede started at the end of that 1st week...on the Friday? So during the 'disappearance' phase of it. The remarks about transient people coming along with the Stampede I think were made before LE ruled that the murders occurred on June 30th. I could be wrong though.

 

[Cherchri]

Me too. If I recall though, all four doors on the SUV were open. Was it abandoned or was it an unmarked vehicle belonging to LE? Having said that, I can't imagine front and back seat passengers being so 'gung ho' to get to the slough as to leave all doors open.

LE spent some time searching it so definitely not theirs. It could have been abandoned but one is left to wonder why.

 

[Slebby]

Me too. If I recall though, all four doors on the SUV were open. Was it abandoned or was it an unmarked vehicle belonging to LE? Having said that, I can't imagine front and back seat passengers being so 'gung ho' to get to the slough as to leave all doors open.

I had assumed it was a LE vehicle. A possible reason for the doors to be open would be because they were accessing things inside the truck (such as evidence bags, markers, maybe a camera?) and also putting things into the truck. Leaving the doors open is easier than opening and closing, opening and closing. Just an idea based on my thinking it looked like a LE vehicle.

IMHO

 

[Cherchri]

I believe the Stampede started at the end of that 1st week...on the Friday? So during the 'disappearance' phase of it. The remarks about transient people coming along with the Stampede I think were made before LE ruled that the murders occurred on June 30th. I could be wrong though.

I think it started on the 3rd BUT the crowds started rolling in ahead of the "long weekend". On our quiet residential and quite narrow street, neighbours had visitors parked on the street in mobile homes from around the 25th of June and for the duration of a Canada Day and stampede. This year there were some 350,000 visiting Calgary during that period.

 

[Slebby]

LE spent some time searching it so definitely not theirs. It could have been abandoned but one is left to wonder why.

Oops, missed your post. I didn't realize LE had searched the vehicle.

 

[Power of Two]

The budget set out for Legal Aid is $20,000 and can be extended to $30,000 for more complex cases.

I did find this article that seems in line with my guess:

http://thelawdictionary.org/article/how-much-does-a-criminal-defense-lawyer-cost-for-murder-charges/

It states that the range is between $20,000 and $100,000 depending on the case and Lawyer.

My understanding is that Legal Aid has a finite monetary ceiling, as well. However... wasn't the Picton trial paid for by Legal Aid? I shudder thinking about how much money that trial racked up! So happy to see our tax dollars hard at work... I am friends with a high profile mother and advocate of one of Picton's victims. Her daughter was one of the group he was formally charged with murdering. There is still bitterness and incredulity regarding just how much time and money the families had to spend to find some small justice vs how much was spent on Picton's defense (and subsequent keep) via the tax payer.

 

[Sillybilly]

In the end, the judge ruled not enough evidence for conviction, and so the accused was released ....

LE were upset with the judge's ruling, and it was like they then gave up completely on the case.

<rsbm>

I was on AG's thread from the very beginning and throughout until it was recently closed down.

For the record, the above statements are simply untrue. There was no trial resulting in a judge making any ruling ... as soon as forensic evidence was found NOT to match DLS, the charges were withdrawn by the Crown and he was immediately released. There was no trial or any ruling by any judge. The system simply worked

Also, don't know where you are getting that LE was upset with a judge's ruling because there was no ruling.

 

[Krystine]

LE spent some time searching it so definitely not theirs. It could have been abandoned but one is left to wonder why.

Thank you, Cherchri. I don't remember much if anything reported about that SUV, aside from the sleuther's observations...but maybe it went over my head. My mind keeps wanting to tie that in and make some sense of it in terms of this case.

 

[kdgdid]

A and K's obit from the Calgary Herald http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/calgaryherald/obituary.aspx?n=alvin-liknes&pid=172509237&fhid=18552