Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #16

[Tinkerbel1]

Quite a few days for sure...the truck picture went public on the 4th...
On the 5th it went out on MSM that LE were at the acreage....
That same day *5th* 3 bodies were found in a burned out truck in Barrie....there was even speculation here whether or not that could be related...
It was not but the travel time was feasible...
Of course we didn't know about DG being a suspect when all of these events were occurring.....JMOO

See? That's the thing. The bodies have not been discovered anywhere yet. And yes, the timeline for travel pointed out above is feasible, but DG couldn't have driven there, he has an alibi for that....but, if perhaps there was an accomplice, it is certainly possible. It would even be possible that the victims were taken to the ocean and dumped if someone else were driving. There would be no evidence for an accomplice until the bodies were found far, far away...in a place that DG couldn't possibly have gotten to. That would explain why there may be no evidence for an accomplice now. Perhaps the role they played has not been unearthed yet. Just a thought.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Thanks! I would like to point out that if it weren't for my "off-topic" conversation with Lalalacasbah about us peering into windows at night I may not have looked at the interior photos of this real estate listing. So thank you Lalalacasbah!

You're welcome LL!

 

[Krystine]

I can't remember if this was discussed but I know a wheel barrel was. Because a move was taking place is it possible one of those fridge mover carts was at the house? My husband amazes me with what he can move with those things - even to pull things up into the back of a truck - WITHOUT the adrenaline DG would have had flowing through his veins.

Yes, except I have trouble imagining how a human being could be moved with a fridge dolly. Given the flexibility.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Yes, except I have trouble imagining how a human being could be moved with a fridge dolly. Given the flexibility.

....and then, where's the dolly?

 

[CentralAlberta]

Yes, except I have trouble imagining how a human being could be moved with a fridge dolly. Given the flexibility.

Maybe strapped to a chair?? In a freezer?? Just a thought.

 

[Slebby]

The question about wheel barrows and dollies to move bodies reminds me of something I've wondered about.

Early on in the investigation, LE was interested in finding out what items has been sold at the estate sale, and wanted to speak with people who had bought things at the estate sale. One reason could be to determine what items were actually sold. Were there any items that had gone unsold, but seem to be missing? A wheelbarrow could be a good example. If the L's owned a wheelbarrow, no one bought it yet it was not found at the scene, the killer must have taken it.

Other items that might have been used in the crime or crime cleanup - a trunk, a dolly, a shop vac. If these items were on the scene, used by the killer then hauled away, they could help explain how the suspect, a small man, might have managed to remove the victims.

Thoughts?

IMHO

 

[Lalalacasbah]

The question about wheel barrows and dollies to move bodies reminds me of something I've wondered about.

Early on in the investigation, LE was interested in finding out what items has been sold at the estate sale, and wanted to speak with people who had bought things at the estate sale. One reason could be to determine what items were actually sold. Were there any items that had gone unsold, but seem to be missing? A wheelbarrow could be a good example. If the L's owned a wheelbarrow, no one bought it yet it was not found at the scene, the killer must have taken it.

Other items that might have been used in the crime or crime cleanup - a trunk, a dolly, a shop vac. If these items were on the scene, used by the killer then hauled away, they could help explain how the suspect, a small man, might have managed to remove the victims.

Thoughts?

IMHO

I definitely agree this could've happened. I remember the photos of LE in the garage as well as the photos of LE pointing what looked like into the garage from the sidewalk through the door where the drag marks seemed to come from.

I think there was discussion whether something went missing from the garage be it a weapon or mode of removal.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

The question about wheel barrows and dollies to move bodies reminds me of something I've wondered about.

Early on in the investigation, LE was interested in finding out what items has been sold at the estate sale, and wanted to speak with people who had bought things at the estate sale. One reason could be to determine what items were actually sold. Were there any items that had gone unsold, but seem to be missing? A wheelbarrow could be a good example. If the L's owned a wheelbarrow, no one bought it yet it was not found at the scene, the killer must have taken it.

Other items that might have been used in the crime or crime cleanup - a trunk, a dolly, a shop vac. If these items were on the scene, used by the killer then hauled away, they could help explain how the suspect, a small man, might have managed to remove the victims.

Thoughts?

IMHO

Indeed. I would think that was the primary reasoning for taking inventory, and another example of LE doing the right things, right from the start. At that time, anyone was a suspect.

If anything valuable was stolen and pawned, anything was used in the commission of the crime, or perhaps even something was stolen as a memento, then perhaps that inventory becomes a smoking gun if anything is ever found.

Smart action based on what ifs.

 

[LoisLane]

Something that I wonder about missing items from the house is what if those items weren't available for his use? He must have had a plan to follow and a timeframe. He could have improvised and also if anything was needed for storage or transport he would have to make sure he had access and that they were available for his use.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Something that I wonder about missing items from the house is what if those items weren't available for his use? He must have had a plan to follow and a timeframe. He could have improvised and also if anything was needed for storage or transport he would have to make sure he had access and that they were available for his use.

You would think so, but given the surprise extra victim, it's reasonable to think that any plan deviated. It's my recollection that LE suddenly abandoned the inventory when they began searching the acreage. I wonder if they continued it?

 

[Cherchri]

The question about wheel barrows and dollies to move bodies reminds me of something I've wondered about.

Early on in the investigation, LE was interested in finding out what items has been sold at the estate sale, and wanted to speak with people who had bought things at the estate sale. One reason could be to determine what items were actually sold. Were there any items that had gone unsold, but seem to be missing? A wheelbarrow could be a good example. If the L's owned a wheelbarrow, no one bought it yet it was not found at the scene, the killer must have taken it.

Other items that might have been used in the crime or crime cleanup - a trunk, a dolly, a shop vac. If these items were on the scene, used by the killer then hauled away, they could help explain how the suspect, a small man, might have managed to remove the victims.

Thoughts?

IMHO

Good thinking! That makes perfect sense.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Thanks You Linike !! We seem to get caught up in the moment and forget that victims' families also read here. Occasional light-hearted remarks are usually kept to a minimum, but the volume of OT posts of late must be discouraging for those going through the grief of having lost loved ones.

There are various WS threads for banter and chilling:

The Parking Lot (for members only):

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?35-The-Parking-Lot/page2

One of many in the above forum:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?195242-Meet-here-for-drinks/page23

Or the WS Chat Room:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?43-Chat!

For those who didn't get it, that was the WS version of "get a room"... with links provided, of course.

Guilty as charged.

 

[jillianzzcat]

I think DG could have planned to make this as quick and simple as possible...I don't think he dismembered bodies to move them (of course I may not want to think of that scenario) and as much as it could be possible to lift two deceased adults into a truck....I think it would be too much effort, and there is a risk of being seen. The idea the adults were placed in a barrel or ? and taken to the truck via a dolly...possible..if he was seen...no one would question what he was doing...given AL and KL were moving. Another possibility, which has been suggested by myself and others is DG mortally wounded KL somehow and used NO as leverage to force AL to move KL to his truck and drive to another pre planned location, where the final act was carried out. Given there was an amber alert, I wonder too, if AL and NO were seen in a truck that night...obviously alive. DG must have had a place in mind to dump the victims....or possibly he carried out the plan in the truck at a pre planned location, returned to the farm and disposed of all the evidence by chemicals, burning...(try to avoid thinking of this particular scenario).....I don't think DG would have gone very far for disposal of the victims, or what was left.....why bother....he knows the area and most likely knows of several locations that are close yet removed from traffic of any kind.

 

[LoriMcA]

See? That's the thing. The bodies have not been discovered anywhere yet. And yes, the timeline for travel pointed out above is feasible, but DG couldn't have driven there, he has an alibi for that....but, if perhaps there was an accomplice, it is certainly possible. It would even be possible that the victims were taken to the ocean and dumped if someone else were driving. There would be no evidence for an accomplice until the bodies were found far, far away...in a place that DG couldn't possibly have gotten to. That would explain why there may be no evidence for an accomplice now. Perhaps the role they played has not been unearthed yet. Just a thought.

^^BBM

I haven't heard of an alibi? I know LE took him into custody the night of the 4th from the acreage...up to that point where was he right? There was the neighbour who saw lights/burning early in the week...but who's to say that was DG?

I was quoting OOTD about the possibility the victims could be literally anywhere within that first few days....I know it takes 23 hours driving from here *The Peg* to southern Ontario...from Calgary it would be another 12 or so...then the trip back again...and sleep 'somewhere' in there....feasible yes...probable? not likely...but it was brought up at that time when the other victims were found...
Although the possibility of accomplice has been brought up before...myself included....that's not what I was getting at in the above ...was just agreeing & giving example of 'they could be anywhere' & the thoughts at that time about the Barrie victims/possible connection...

Those were not my thoughts at the time...when I heard of the 3 truck victims ...all the way in Barrie...I was like...who the heck would take them all the way across country..take so many chances of being seen...just to conceal them...not really plausible... JMOO

 

[LoriMcA]

The question about wheel barrows and dollies to move bodies reminds me of something I've wondered about.

Early on in the investigation, LE was interested in finding out what items has been sold at the estate sale, and wanted to speak with people who had bought things at the estate sale. One reason could be to determine what items were actually sold. Were there any items that had gone unsold, but seem to be missing? A wheelbarrow could be a good example. If the L's owned a wheelbarrow, no one bought it yet it was not found at the scene, the killer must have taken it.

Other items that might have been used in the crime or crime cleanup - a trunk, a dolly, a shop vac. If these items were on the scene, used by the killer then hauled away, they could help explain how the suspect, a small man, might have managed to remove the victims.

Thoughts?

IMHO

^^BBM
I've wondered too along the way...what LE thought could be missing from the house.....Early on ...someone had mentioned a wheeled office chair...I thought that was a pretty smart idea...maybe there was an office chair *or 2?* missing from the house....as well as all the 'clean up items' you mentioned as well...JMOO

 

[Krystine]

Something that I wonder about missing items from the house is what if those items weren't available for his use? He must have had a plan to follow and a timeframe. He could have improvised and also if anything was needed for storage or transport he would have to make sure he had access and that they were available for his use.

I'm thinking it was a carefully premeditated plan (even if the accused only learned of the estate sale a day before). That includes perfect timing (the move, the sale, the long weekend) and a precise plan to get in and out before dawn, when the world starts to turn again and someone might show up. I'm positive all of the tools and what have you would be in the back of the truck. And the moving truck scenario would be a perfect foil for transporting bodies.

But, on the flip side...

Why was it ultimately considered a better plan to remove the bodies from the scene? We know now that the scene held a lot of blood evidence. There was no way anyone would think the couple simply decided to go into hiding. ~

Did the intention to kill the victims and leave change during the act? There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason, IMO to removing the bodies from the scene. I don't believe the accused is naive enough to think no bodies = no case against him. He is a lot more wylie than that, and knows the law inside out. (I don't doubt he is educating himself further as he sits in remand).

Did some crazy paranoia fuelled by a hormonal/adrenaline rush make him decide to remove the victims, or was that Plan A to begin with?
Did he become traumatized during the act of murder, and perhaps get derailed about the best thing to do?


It seems like a 'simple' murder plan became very complicated.

 

[Krystine]

Maybe strapped to a chair?? In a freezer?? Just a thought.

Then you have the freezer, and the human being to move...I think you'd need a couple of people for that, even with a dolly.

 

[Krystine]

For those who didn't get it, that was the WS version of "get a room"... with links provided, of course.

Guilty as charged.

Hilarious ...are we still allowed to giggle?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

^^BBM

I haven't heard of an alibi? I know LE took him into custody the night of the 4th from the acreage...up to that point where was he right? There was the neighbour who saw lights/burning early in the week...but who's to say that was DG?

I was quoting OOTD about the possibility the victims could be literally anywhere within that first few days....I know it takes 23 hours driving from here *The Peg* to southern Ontario...from Calgary it would be another 12 or so...then the trip back again...and sleep 'somewhere' in there....feasible yes...probable? not likely...but it was brought up at that time when the other victims were found...
Although the possibility of accomplice has been brought up before...myself included....that's not what I was getting at in the above ...was just agreeing & giving example of 'they could be anywhere' & the thoughts at that time about the Barrie victims/possible connection...

Those were not my thoughts at the time...when I heard of the 3 truck victims ...all the way in Barrie...I was like...who the heck would take them all the way across country..take so many chances of being seen...just to conceal them...not really plausible... JMOO

No, no...I wasn't misunderstanding your post...I just had an 'aha' moment when I was reading it. It could be a possibility that DG stood at his barrell burning clothes or whatever while someone else was disposing of the bodies...sort of a deflection tactic off himself? Just a thought.

 

[stan laurel]

How in the world did you find that? I decided it would be impossible.
I believe the lawyer who draws it all up and administers it can renew it automatically, but who would have paid the annual fee?

I cross a winpet phone number which hasn't been reissued and found the number on a registry that also has winpet and some private sleuthing by another member (that I just read) brings an address to one of the directors office where several other companies he is associated with is. Tired, just drove 250 km's back from camping, I wish they'd outlaw those weird purpley blue headlights people have that always look like they're on high beams.