Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #17

[Lalalacasbah]

It doesn't matter whether they are married or not. They have a child that is about 16 years old today. That means that they met when the accused was a fugitive. That means that Allen met his wife, they had a child, Garland was arrested, he spent six months in jail, and some time after that, he met Alvin.

Ohhhhhhhhh, I see. We're going to assume that Allen's oldest son is not his son, and then we can go back to claiming that we don't know whether Alvin met Garland before or after his son met Garland's sister. Why should we assume that Allen's oldest son is not his son?

I also thought PG was maybe married before and had a different last name at one time, but not sure it's the same PG...

 

[otto]

I'm sorry, call me confused, I won't be offended...but who said PG and AL(jr) had a child shortly after they met? Maybe they were highschool sweethearts? Just because Douglas was living in Vancouver when the child was born, does not necessarily mean he didn't know Allen Liknes prior to his Vancouver days...and/or Alvin for that matter. I'm not getting your line of reasoning Otto, sorry, it just confuses me.

Sure, perhaps a 40 year old Alvin Liknes, the oil executive, socialized with a 22 year old Garland, the meth cooker, in 1990, but not likely. His sister is what ... 8 years younger than Douglas, so she was 16. Allen Liknes did not live in Airdrie and did not go to school there. How would he have met the 16 year old and why would Allen then introduce his father to the meth cooker?

 

[deugirtni]

With all due respect otto, we just don't know where their paths could have crossed, and it could in fact be in hundreds of different ways. They could have been on a baseball team or bowling league together, the could have had a mutual acquaintance, they could have both been involved in patenting some kind of pump, they could have both belonged to a rotary club, they could have met through KL who could have met DG in any number of ways, the list is really endless, and we must not make assumptions and present them as fact and assume there are no other possibilities. Can you imagine if that is how LE came up with evidence? Some things may seem obvious and could turn out to be something completely different after examination of facts.

Apparently we also don't know whether the green truck in the photos is the same truck that was confiscated from the acreage.

If we take Garland's sister out of the equation, why would they have met? Where would their lives have crossed paths?

 

[deugirtni]

Personally, I think there are some of us who do not assume anything, but rather, hold discussions regarding possibilities, until we are presented with facts, IMOO.

... but we can assume that recently cleaned up dark stain drag marks spanning eight metres with crime scene markers are unrelated to the three murders and the removal of three bodies, that a fence with 4x4 posts every few feet is a gate, that police at no time opened that gate during the crime scene analysis because they didn't know it was there or they were too dumb to realize that this was in fact how the bodies were removed from the property, that three bodies were taken to an Airdrie acreage rather than put in a secluded location, that reporters are incompetent, that the prosecutor did not do his job and provide discovery documents to the defence in a timely manner, that although police walked every inch of the Airdrie acreage there could be a bunker under the crop fields, that although google earth imagery provides photos confirming that the Airdrie acreage is a working farm it's not a working farm, and so on. It seems that each time we have information that allows us to draw conclusions, we should imagine the opposite.

Okay, let's assume that Allen's oldest son is not his son. Then we can continue to believe that Garland, a criminal from an early age, and Alvin, an oil executive, had some sort of relationship, that he was so impressed with Douglas that he socialized with him, and he introduced his son to Garland's sister. This happened prior to 2007, when Alvin and Garland had a falling out due to a bad business deal. This happened after 2001, when Garland was a convicted criminal. Does that make more sense?

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, you are correct. LE has never confirmed that the green truck in the photos is DG's truck. Are you 'assuming' this because it was confiscated for examination? What assumption would you have, if LE also confiscated AL's truck for examination?

Apparently we also don't know whether the green truck in the photos is the same truck that was confiscated from the acreage.

If we take Garland's sister out of the equation, why would they have met? Where would their lives have crossed paths?

 

[deugirtni]

Lala, I don't recall ever hearing that she had a different last name at one time, however for some reason, I'm not sure if I read it at one time or if it is simply a perception that I got from one or more news articles, I had the feeling that the children in that relationship were *her* children, but I don't recall specifically reading that, so it must just be a perception that I got from somewhere, but I don't think any of us know for sure.

I also thought PG was maybe married before and had a different last name at one time, but not sure it's the same PG...

 

[otto]

With all due respect otto, we just don't know where their paths could have crossed, and it could in fact be in hundreds of different ways. They could have been on a baseball team or bowling league together, the could have had a mutual acquaintance, they could have both been involved in patenting some kind of pump, they could have both belonged to a rotary club, they could have met through KL who could have met DG in any number of ways, the list is really endless, and we must not make assumptions and present them as fact and assume there are no other possibilities. Can you imagine if that is how LE came up with evidence? Some things may seem obvious and could turn out to be something completely different after examination of facts.

Perhaps we can take the information we have and figure it out. First, Allen and his wife have three children, the oldest of whom was born when Douglas was a fugitive. Sure, it's possible that the oldest child was born prior to Allen meeting his wife. Then, we have the years where Alvin could have met Douglas. There are 18 years between their ages. Garland was "Busted on Oct. 23, 1992 on his parents’ acreage, where police found a sophisticated drug lab with a vast supply of chemicals used in the manufacture of methamphetamines — albeit no actual finished drugs — Garland made one court appearance on drug-trafficking charges, then vanished. (link)"

"The decisions note that one charge for possession of a prohibited weapon was dismissed in 1988, another withdrawn in 1999, while an assault charge was stayed in 1989.(link)"

So, at the age of 21, after two years at university in Edmonton - where he was expelled for cheating, he returned to his parent's home to build a meth lab. Alvin, meanwhile, aged 39, is married, has a family, and is working as an oil executive. I'm not seeing any type of relationship between the meth cook and the married father who owns oil companies. Three years later, in 1992, Douglas is convicted, and he flees the province to assume a false identity. Again, no connection between Alvin and Douglas. In 2000, he is released from prison. Next, Allen and Douglas's sister meet - prior to 2007. Alvin meets Douglas, prior to 2007. Allen and Douglas' sister are married and start a family prior to 2007. Douglas has a contract to do patent design work for Alvin. It's highly unlikely that Alvin would socialize with a convicted meth cook, and it's equally unlikely that he would socialize with someone that was completing contract work for him.

Isn't it pretty much common sense that Alvin met Douglas and gave him some contract work after Allen and the sister were married?

What other connection is there?

 

[otto]

Lala, I don't recall ever hearing that she had a different last name at one time, however for some reason, I'm not sure if I read it at one time or if it is simply a perception that I got from one or more news articles, I had the feeling that the children in that relationship were *her* children, but I don't recall specifically reading that, so it must just be a perception that I got from somewhere, but I don't think any of us know for sure.

It should be easy enough to figure out. Someone could have a look at the facebook pages associated with the wedding of Nathan's parents. Are last names provided for any of the Allen's children?

 

[otto]

Yes, you are correct. LE has never confirmed that the green truck in the photos is DG's truck. Are you 'assuming' this because it was confiscated for examination? What assumption would you have, if LE also confiscated AL's truck for examination?

I know that the green truck in the photo is the green truck that was confiscated shortly before the owner of that same truck was charge with murder. I don't need to read it anywhere, and I don't need to imagine that maybe it's a different green truck. I will use common sense. Similarly, the dark drag marks marked with crime scene markers are related to the murders where it was a bloody scene and bodies were dragged out of the house. I'm pretty sure that the cleaned up drag marks are blood. I'm also pretty sure that the bodies were taken to the front of the house and loaded into Garland's truck. I think it would be foolish of Garland to take three bodies to his parent's acreage when there are plenty of secluded, rural areas to hide bodies. Most criminals want to distance themselves from murder, not bring the evidence to their front door.

 

[otto]

[modsnip]:

"Alvin rode alpine skis, cross-country skis and water skis. He drove Boogie Vans, Impalas, Porsches and Sidewinders. He took lessons on how to fly a plane, how to jump from a plane and how to dive down deep in the dark blue sea. He played hockey, coached soccer and had a squash serve that could knock you flat. Alvin was a guy who stayed on top of the household laundry. He loved wide-open spaces and clear starry nights.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/calgaryherald/obituary.aspx?pid=172509237#sthash.w6rA0K2X.dpuf

 

[otto]

Personally, I think there are some of us who do not assume anything, but rather, hold discussions regarding possibilities, until we are presented with facts, IMOO.

The facts will be presented during trial, but it's usually possible to figure out most of what happened well before trial.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

The chemical industry is a big player in Alberta, there are a lot of big chemical companies out here, at least around the Edmonton and Fort Saskatchewan (and now Redwater) areas. Fertilizers, peat moss, land reclamation companies - consultants usually fixing up oil spills, etc. My uncle is a chemical engineer and has spent his working years between Alberta/Saskatchewan and Manitoba. My neice is a chemical technologist and works for a company that does a lot of land reclamation work. The chemistry industry is a big player in the O&G industry I believe as well. Just my 2 cents worth.

Thanks Tinker, I had no idea it was so commonplace! Thanks for the info. Seeing that CH worked in the industry isn't worth much relevance then nor is it really a coincidence, good to know

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Lala, I don't recall ever hearing that she had a different last name at one time, however for some reason, I'm not sure if I read it at one time or if it is simply a perception that I got from one or more news articles, I had the feeling that the children in that relationship were *her* children, but I don't recall specifically reading that, so it must just be a perception that I got from somewhere, but I don't think any of us know for sure.

Yes, I think the same as you - the children are her biological children (I had thought from a previous marriage for some reason, I think I googled some stuff to make me believe that, nothing I read on MSM) and not ALJr's biological but likely step-kids, but I'm probably wrong, as maybe it wasn't the same PG.

 

[Krystine]

I can't help wondering if that isn't some kind of a handle/pull bar on the one section of the back fence, and also that the post seems different between 1st and 2nd sections? (which may indicate that this section of fence was moveable, or some kind of large gate?)

That is also what I was thinking...do we have any fence building men here?

 

[otto]

That is also what I was thinking...do we have any fence building men here?

Does the fence actually look like a gate?

 

[LoisLane]

[modsnip]

"Alvin rode alpine skis, cross-country skis and water skis. He drove Boogie Vans, Impalas, Porsches and Sidewinders. He took lessons on how to fly a plane, how to jump from a plane and how to dive down deep in the dark blue sea. He played hockey, coached soccer and had a squash serve that could knock you flat. Alvin was a guy who stayed on top of the household laundry. He loved wide-open spaces and clear starry nights.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/calgaryherald/obituary.aspx?pid=172509237#sthash.w6rA0K2X.dpuf

That is a strong assumption. [modsnip] We want to explore and we are able to detach from an idea or theory but we are here to roll thru them. The backyard was being considered and I simply asked if you had the renderring that you created. It would have been helpful if you provided it [modsnip]. Even if the backyard theory turns out to be nothing it is still a process and what is discovered can lead to something else.

 

[news.talk]

Debated posting this but I am stumped and would love the expert sleuthers here to provide some input...

I was speaking with a SAR member and he divulged that LE and his unit had searched "THREE potential crime scenes." If we are exploring potential aspects if this case due to the lack of public information and we assume this to be a possibility rather than rumour, where could this additional crime scene be located and what was it's purpose?

 

[LoisLane]

Debated posting this but I am stumped and would love the expert sleuthers here to provide some input...

I was speaking with a SAR member and he divulged that LE and his unit had searched "THREE potential crime scenes." If we are exploring potential aspects if this case due to the lack of public information and we assume this to be a possibility rather than rumour, where could this additional crime scene be located and what was it's purpose?

I would think either Winter headquarters or DG has a facility where he stored his chemicals from his business. Unless, the landfill is the third location.

 

[winnnancy]

Debated posting this but I am stumped and would love the expert sleuthers here to provide some input...

I was speaking with a SAR member and he divulged that LE and his unit had searched "THREE potential crime scenes." If we are exploring potential aspects if this case due to the lack of public information and we assume this to be a possibility rather than rumour, where could this additional crime scene be located and what was it's purpose?

" crime scenes" as opposed to disposal sites?
Does this mean that it was felt one of the murders occurred elsewhere?

 

[Krystine]

Debated posting this but I am stumped and would love the expert sleuthers here to provide some input...

I was speaking with a SAR member and he divulged that LE and his unit had searched "THREE potential crime scenes." If we are exploring potential aspects if this case due to the lack of public information and we assume this to be a possibility rather than rumour, where could this additional crime scene be located and what was it's purpose?

Well we know there was a sweep of the Agricultural Building, with that ominous sign "Post Mortem Only", by the abandoned (at the time) old Ford Dealership. Pardon my ignorance, what is SAR?