Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #17

[deugirtni]

I don't think there necessarily has to be an entry from garage to house, especially when there is a side door into the house immediately behind the garage.

Sorry ... my mistake. In looking at the two photos, the one where the officer is holding up the pants, and one where the white bins have been moved and officers are looking at the tools and walkie talkies, we know the photos are taken in the garage. In fact, the blurry white object is the car. The garage is attached, two walls are interior walls, one is the overhead door wall, and one exterior wall has two windows ... the same two windows that we see on the outside of the house next to the side door. We can see that there is no door along the South interior wall of the garage (where there are two window), so there cannot be a exterior door on the South wall of the garage. There must be another door for entering the garage from the house, and it's probably near the bottom of the stairs that lead up to the kitchen.

 

[stan laurel]

If the attached garage was 22x22 (I am basing that on a regular 12' wide garage + 6 feet (what it looks like to me in comparson to the people standing near it in other picturse, at the right of the garage door when facing it) + 4 feet (what the left side beside the overhead door looks like to me in comparson to the right side), that would be 484sq.ft. and if the detached garage at the back is say 27'w x 24'd (it appears a little larger on the overhead view), that would be 648sq.ft., and the total would be 1132, so that might make sense that both could total approx 1138 sq.ft.

the back garage is quite large and there used to be different packages one could buy when adding a garage. my dad chose a longer but not wider garage (for the car, truck wouldn't fit) but it was long enough that he had ample work bench space and a loft for pigeons. A friend recently bought a mid sixties home with a garage both long and wide but the door only allows for one vehicle, the wider portion is a home mechanics dream space. AL's garage kinda looks like it. I'll be in that area Monday and will drive past, and I'll also check to see if the fence has a lift out or swing out section.

 

[stan laurel]

I don't think there necessarily has to be an entry from garage to house, especially when there is a side door into the house immediately behind the garage.

definitely a door and straight into the rumpus room (why don't we call it a rumpus room anymore?)

 

[deugirtni]

Wow, I had NO idea! Thanks for looking that up! Now I REALLY feel for LE in trying to find their perps!
Now we need to check to see if prints are the same on identical twins? I think I recall reading one time that they are in fact different as well.

I had to check...lol

Do we have the same fingerprints on each finger or are they different?
Answer 1:
Fingerprints first form before we are even born. Their shape is dependent partly on genetics, and partly on random patterning processes. Because they are partly determined by random development, no two are alike-- not even on one hand! The answer to your question, then, is that we do not have the same fingerprint on each finger.

This can make things difficult for police who are trying to solve a crime. When they find fingerprints at a crime scene, they often need to figure out which finger left each print so that they don't have to look at all ten fingerprints for each suspect. The police have experts who are very good at doing this, though.

Look at your own fingertips under a magnifying glass. Pick one of your fingers, and carefully examine the pattern of the fingerprint. Try to find one distinctive mark or shape that's easy to remember, like a particular loop or whorl. Now look at the fingerprint from a different finger. If you compare them, you will probably see that although they might be similar, they are not identical! This is why fingerprints are such a good way of identifying people. Nobody has the same fingerprints you do-- and even each of your fingers is unique!

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=243

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, I believe my house is approx the same age as this one, not sure if building standards would be relatively the same in both ON and AB(?), and the original master bedroom is a nice size, but the original 2nd and 3rd bedrooms are like closets! In our house, they were so small that the previous owner made the 2 extra bedrooms into one bedroom that is a nice size. I wonder if these people did the same when they renovated (or whomever did the renovation when adding the addition). We have plaster walls in the original parts of our house and hardwood floors, but it is weird because the original hardwood is 3/8", rather than the typical 3/4" thick. That shocked me when we took some of it out.

I'm pretty familiar with this type of house an when time permits i'll draft a rough sketch of how they're laid out and a guess of how they added the back part. it's amazing what size bedrooms were years ago to the massive ones we have now. tired from work and now more work to do and then more again, then work tomorrow,, wished it would spread out more but there you have it.

 

[deugirtni]

Hmm, I'm not convinced.. doesn't it look like the garage is on ground level (say from ground to ceiling is 8' high), but the house itself looks like it is already a split level right away at the front? You know the layout of course, and I do not, but you have to climb what appears to me to be half a storey up to the front entrance of the house, so wouldn't an interior door from garage to house be walking into half a level?

definitely a door and straight into the rumpus room (why don't we call it a rumpus room anymore?)

 

[deugirtni]

What is a rumpus room? Is that the equvalent of a 'mud room'?

definitely a door and straight into the rumpus room (why don't we call it a rumpus room anymore?)

 

[LoisLane]

Sorry to stir the pot and I have not participated in the conversation about violent struggle vs. incident or whatever it has been called but I am curious as to where that reference originated from. I don't know if this has been brought into that debate but I found this and thought I would share it.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2014/07/04/21784996.html

"We can now confirm a violent crime occurred in that residence," Andrus said of the home of Kathy and Alvin Liknes.

I would recommend watching the video statement from Andrus rather than reading the article. The article puts words in his mouth.

So I am not sure if the struggle vs. incident came after or before this video but now you have "violent crime" as well.

 

[LoisLane]

He's probably familiar with Revit software, which is what I'm using to build the virtual model. The problem comes down to figuring out what is going on inside the house. The property description includes "improvement", which I believe means an addition, but perhaps he would know the answer to that question: when the property assessment says "improvement", does that mean a structural addition to the property? We know that it's a split level, and most split level homes have a similar layout. The question is how that was modified when the addition was put on. Here's another question for him: if concrete was poured directly on the ground, without a foundation, would the only way a building permit would be issued is if it was claimed that it was a garage? That is, is it ever possible in Calgary to pour concrete on the ground, without a foundation, and build living space on it? Or ... is it only possible to pour concrete directly on the ground for a garage?

The main floor seems fairly easy to figure out (living room/dining/kitchen levels). The next level down is on the same level as the garage, and appears to be a family room extending into the backyard with a patio door leading to the backyard. The tricky part is the upstairs. A split level typically has three bedrooms and a bathroom upstairs. Houses built in the 1950s did not normally have a bathroom attached to the master bedroom. With the addition, it's hard to figure out how the upstairs would have been reconfigured. I believe the room over the garage is the office. Plumbing couldn't move too far, so the original bathroom is probably still near that office. The question is what is happening in the second floor of the addition. There must be a master bedroom there, perhaps a second bedroom ... hard to know how it's laid out.

There's another room below grade, under the living room, but that's probably a bedroom ... a good place for a teenage son.

I will sit down with my husband this weekend and go thru all this with him. I will incorporate your comments and if we have a working drawing and notes etc. I will try and post the files or send it to you or whoever is interested. I am not technical, I can't even figure out how to post a pic. I am only good with web links...lol

 

[otto]

What is a rumpus room? Is that the equvalent of a 'mud room'?

A rumpus room is a large play room for children that is on a different floor than the living room.

 

[LoisLane]

the back garage is quite large and there used to be different packages one could buy when adding a garage. my dad chose a longer but not wider garage (for the car, truck wouldn't fit) but it was long enough that he had ample work bench space and a loft for pigeons. A friend recently bought a mid sixties home with a garage both long and wide but the door only allows for one vehicle, the wider portion is a home mechanics dream space. AL's garage kinda looks like it. I'll be in that area Monday and will drive past, and I'll also check to see if the fence has a lift out or swing out section.

Oh that would be awesome! Thanks Stan. I am excited to hear your interpretation!!

 

[otto]

I will sit down with my husband this weekend and go thru all this with him. I will incorporate your comments and if we have a working drawing and notes etc. I will try and post the files or send it to you or whoever is interested. I am not technical, I can't even figure out how to post a pic. I am only good with web links...lol

I have put together the floor plans for the main floor, approximated where the stairs are going up to the bedrooms, and down to the garage level. There's another stairwell that goes to the room beneath the living room ... and furnace/hot water tank area, but I don't think that's related to the murders. With so much room, and a couple of living rooms, I can't see the victims being in the basement.

It's going to be a nice weekend, so the good weather should be enjoyed as long as possible. I can put together what we have so far ... maybe tomorrow. The questions are essentially about access to the garage, and what's going on upstairs.

 

[otto]

the back garage is quite large and there used to be different packages one could buy when adding a garage. my dad chose a longer but not wider garage (for the car, truck wouldn't fit) but it was long enough that he had ample work bench space and a loft for pigeons. A friend recently bought a mid sixties home with a garage both long and wide but the door only allows for one vehicle, the wider portion is a home mechanics dream space. AL's garage kinda looks like it. I'll be in that area Monday and will drive past, and I'll also check to see if the fence has a lift out or swing out section.

Take pictures.

 

[otto]

Hmm, I'm not convinced.. doesn't it look like the garage is on ground level (say from ground to ceiling is 8' high), but the house itself looks like it is already a split level right away at the front? You know the layout of course, and I do not, but you have to climb what appears to me to be half a storey up to the front entrance of the house, so wouldn't an interior door from garage to house be walking into half a level?

The garage is on the same level as the second living room, which is on the back of the house. That is, from the kitchen, there's a stairwell that goes down to the level of garage, side door, lower floor of new addition in the back. From there, there's another stairwell that goes to the basement, which is the room under the main living room. The main floor is at the top of the front stairs, which includes the front entrance, living, dining, kitchen, and access to the back deck.

The reason that the addition is interesting is because the family may have been in that room on the garage level watching TV, and that room is next to the side door.

 

[stan laurel]

Take pictures.

i'll sketch what I see which I'm proficient at but a camera falls into a private unethical area for me.

 

[LoisLane]

They look to me like there's a hole in the left knee or a tear...I'm not sure though.

I think it looks like paint... They look like a small waist and folded in half. Could belong to AL or even JL. I wonder if JL was still living with his parents at the time. He was staying with JO during the investigation. If he was living with his parents he would have had plans as well once the house was released to the new owners.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I believe there was/is a business connection in Montana. I know a few Calgarians who have cabins in Montana. It is the quickest border crossing from Calgary at about 300Km. I wonder if it is easier to cross the border by car or small plane if you are trying to avoid detection.

True, as a kid in Alberta we went to Whitefish, Montana, so definitely close.

Helena, Montana looks a little farther down, I googled mileage and it's 650 kms, so approx 6 1/2 hr drive. Not the most *convenient* hop, skip and a jump for a nice day trip. Maybe they have family there.

 

[otto]

i'll sketch what I see which I'm proficient at but a camera falls into a private unethical area for me.

If you find yourself loitering around the back fence, a sketch of what the upper and lower floors of the addition look like ... window door placement ... would be really helpful. Maybe you could climb to the top of the slide at the park to get a better view ... if you don't want to be peering over the fence.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

It came from the family. Children and adults were included in the estimation that 200 people were at the leaving the country estate sale.

"About 200 people attended the Liknes’s estate sale June 29. They planned to go to Edmonton after the sale, followed by a trip to Mexico, where some of their family members own vacation property. After that, they intended to move to Edmonton, where they owned a home. The pair already sold their Calgary home and were leasing it back."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...person-case-released-on-bail/article19569011/

Thanks Otto, I'm still shocked there would be that much of a turn out. Even in a big city like Calgary, the number just seems unlikely or exaggerated. I'm not doubting the statement, still just surprised that many people go to the sales.

 

[stan laurel]

Thanks Otto, I'm still shocked there would be that much of a turn out. Even in a big city like Calgary, the number just seems unlikely or exaggerated. I'm not doubting the statement, still just surprised that many people go to the sales.

a stupid tiny garage sale down the street this past summer easily saw 400. the thing is though, and I wonder if the L's did, you have to register your garage/estate sale, one can't just post a sign anymore. not that it matters imo. Calgary has become a gentrified soulless city of vinyl clad homes and suv's that have rarely to if ever set wheel to a gravel road,, marzipan is more colourful than the civic landscape, so things like garage sales feel better than the typical community of walking a mega mall.